Buy the one to puts the biggest smile on on your face:) :)

i am thinking the old shape and a normal on not the SE-too expensive when i can get a normal on for 7000 with 20000 miles on da clock!!

i am so excited, still saving tho wont be buy for a little bit..good think i am able to save a grand a month other wise i would have to wait ages

i am thinking the old shape and a normal on not the SE-too expensive when i can get a normal on for 7000 with 20000 miles on da clock!!

i am so excited, still saving tho wont be buy for a little bit..good think i am able to save a grand a month other wise i would have to wait ages

You'd struggle to find an se in a couple of months time anyway I would have thought.

You'd struggle to find an se in a couple of months time anyway I would have thought.

there is two sitting in my local dealer's that nobody seems interested in lol so maybe let just see how much cash i have at the end of it

If there still there its a sign. Youll be happy anyway. Its still a 130bhp MONSTER which ever you buy.

cheers guys!!

.. this someone also commented on how it 'interferes' when he wants to push his car, which is also fair enough, as long as he can control it if he's pushing it I'm sure he's fine... but when 'granny' is comming the other way on an a-road and looses it on a corner, I'm going to hope her car has ESP!!

I believe that was me...

I have no objection to ESP...but really wish they'd develop it to a point that it works as a safety net only, and not to spoil spirited driving within the limits of the road and conditions.

Which the generic VAG ESP does, in my view...

With regard to Granny and your example...I suspect ESP would be precisely no help here...it can't create space that doesn't exist...if someone has lost control and is looking likely to collect you midway round a corner...it's going to happen, in my view.

I've never experianced the VAG ESP just the version on my Fiat, which is unintrusive (assuming you are driving safely on a public road) if you want to be a racer (and can afford it) you could get a weekend car (lotus elise ect) and take it to a track...

A few points here...

The vRS is sold as a Hot Hatch...so this sort of lends itself to the fact that people may drive one because they enjoy driving.

I enjoy driving...and on a hot day, on a clear roundabout, I really object to an over zealous ESP system kicking in and de-stabilizing my car when I was cornering perfectly bananced, perfectly safely and in total control...because it thinks I've used too much throttle vs steering angle.

Let drivers drive the car...and don't cut in too early...and ESP is great.

Driving like this doesn't mark you out as a racer...merely someone who enjoys spirited driving...and this can be dome completely safely within the speed limits of the road, and the limits of the conditions.

With regard to your 'racer' and 'weekend car' comments...I do. I have a 911...and it HAS got Porsches version of ESP...and even on the track I never feel the need to turn it off because it's correctly developed...and I'm damn sure a Porsche 911 has a chassis that's more likely to need it than a Fabia!

however, my point is simply this, why would you not want ESP on your car, when it could save your life? I'm certainly not suggesting it should be used for 'fun' or as a 'save me' button (I like your terminology there! lol..) I still believe all road cars should be fitted with it, if you want to learn to control a car better, you can always go to a track day... not to put it on a general release warm-hatc, is an oversight in my opinion, these cars are probably the first 'fast' car people have..and I never suggested it should be used above driver skill, after all I'm an instructor, and know as well as anyone, how poor the general skill of 17 yo who's just passed their test is... more training, and learning how to control a car correctly is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but learning to slide a car at a skid control day, or a track, not the public road.... so driving well within your limits on a public road shouldn't set off ESP at all, and then if something goes wrong that ESP should help...........

I agree that it's a good feature...but on a car that's marketed as a Hot Hatch, I think the sortware should be developed better.

I don't feel the need to skid a car about, but I do enjoy spirited driving...and ESP is too sensitive on VAG cars, in my experience.

I also don't think the statement that the vRS is probably someones first fast car holds up.

I know many that have got fed up with highly strung, fast cars and chosen the vRS because of it's relaxing power delivery...

I know it's by far the slowest car I've owned in 15 years...but that has little to do with things...I have my reasons for buying one.

Overall, I'm all for ESP...as long as it's not too nannying.

Sadly, the VAG stuff, is.

I don't feel the need to skid a car about, but I do enjoy spirited driving...and ESP is too sensitive on VAG cars, in my experience.

I also don't think the statement that the vRS is probably someones first fast car holds up.

I know many that have got fed up with highly strung, fast cars and chosen the vRS because of it's relaxing power delivery...

I know it's by far the slowest car I've owned in 15 years...but that has little to do with things...I have my reasons for buying one.

Overall, I'm all for ESP...as long as it's not too nannying.

Sadly, the VAG stuff, is.

Hmmm.

You can turn it off you know

Hmmm.

You can turn it off you know

You can...

Which questions the point in adding it as an option, doesn't it?

You shouldn't need to turn it off if it's developed enough, as it shouldn't spoil fun, yet should remain there for when you really need it - the way it should be.

I believe that was me...

I have no objection to ESP...but really wish they'd develop it to a point that it works as a safety net only, and not to spoil spirited driving within the limits of the road and conditions.

Which the generic VAG ESP does, in my view...

With regard to Granny and your example...I suspect ESP would be precisely no help here...it can't create space that doesn't exist...if someone has lost control and is looking likely to collect you midway round a corner...it's going to happen, in my view.

A few points here...

The vRS is sold as a Hot Hatch...so this sort of lends itself to the fact that people may drive one because they enjoy driving.

I enjoy driving...and on a hot day, on a clear roundabout, I really object to an over zealous ESP system kicking in and de-stabilizing my car when I was cornering perfectly bananced, perfectly safely and in total control...because it thinks I've used too much throttle vs steering angle.

Let drivers drive the car...and don't cut in too early...and ESP is great.

Driving like this doesn't mark you out as a racer...merely someone who enjoys spirited driving...and this can be dome completely safely within the speed limits of the road, and the limits of the conditions.

With regard to your 'racer' and 'weekend car' comments...I do. I have a 911...and it HAS got Porsches version of ESP...and even on the track I never feel the need to turn it off because it's correctly developed...and I'm damn sure a Porsche 911 has a chassis that's more likely to need it than a Fabia!

I agree that it's a good feature...but on a car that's marketed as a Hot Hatch, I think the sortware should be developed better.

I don't feel the need to skid a car about, but I do enjoy spirited driving...and ESP is too sensitive on VAG cars, in my experience.

I also don't think the statement that the vRS is probably someones first fast car holds up.

I know many that have got fed up with highly strung, fast cars and chosen the vRS because of it's relaxing power delivery...

I know it's by far the slowest car I've owned in 15 years...but that has little to do with things...I have my reasons for buying one.

Overall, I'm all for ESP...as long as it's not too nannying.

Sadly, the VAG stuff, is.

I would love to try the porsche..... you don't fancy comming to a meet near me do you ?! lol...

I didn't realise there was so much difference between systems.... I do realise how the software can change it though for the "enthusiastic" driver, such as the system on the ferrari 430.. so I see how it may vary more than I thought between cars...

I never had ESP on the vRS, however, I do remember being followed by a brisky member on a cat'n'fiddle meet (cold wet horrible conditions) who did have ESP and I remember him understeering wide on a corner behind me... and It really slowed him down, I also thought it shouldn't run that wide if the ESP is helping...

My GP is the first car I've owned with ESP, and to be honest it really doesn't have the same effect, it never slows you down that much at all (assuming you turn the ASR off!) and it never really seems intrusive when 'pushing on....' but then the GP doesn't have the heavy understeer the vRS always had....

guess I've never experianced a 'too mannying' system ...

but then again, my point of view is mostly going to come from day to day driving, (I drive a monotonous ammount of miles, that can be boring..) whereas you would have more fun on your day to day drive, if you have a sports car to push... so I can see how our points of view may be different!

however, you wouldn't like my car, because you can't turn it off.... guess I wont be taking mine to the track!

If you read Autoexpress this week it has a feature about ESP and they reckon that throughout the EU it will save IIRC 3500 lives and it is highly likely to become std on every model sold.

The car prices will increase by the

It might be nanny state but surely even if it saves only 1 life it is worth it.

But it still can't defy the laws of physics and it's still very easy to crash in a car with ESP As mentioned earlier in the thread "dumbing down" people's driving abilities by (transparently) saving them each time they get into trouble is not going to help them learn and when they do finally crash it's going to be a much bigger and more serious crash!

Same goes for ABS - how many people think because they have ABS they can drive a foot behind another car? Completely misses the point of ABS

I'd much rather see people learn to drive properly and not get into these emergency situations in the first place, but that ain't gonna happen in my life time! :(

Chris

But it still can't defy the laws of physics and it's still very easy to crash in a car with ESP As mentioned earlier in the thread "dumbing down" people's driving abilities by (transparently) saving them each time they get into trouble is not going to help them learn and when they do finally crash it's going to be a much bigger and more serious crash!

Same goes for ABS - how many people think because they have ABS they can drive a foot behind another car? Completely misses the point of ABS

I'd much rather see people learn to drive properly and not get into these emergency situations in the first place, but that ain't gonna happen in my life time! :(

Chris

Totally agree that driving stds are not good but I'd have as many safety aspects as possible fitted. I want to make sure that I & my passengers are as safe as possible and if I hit anyone that they will have little or no injury.

But it still can't defy the laws of physics and it's still very easy to crash in a car with ESP As mentioned earlier in the thread "dumbing down" people's driving abilities by (transparently) saving them each time they get into trouble is not going to help them learn and when they do finally crash it's going to be a much bigger and more serious crash!

Same goes for ABS - how many people think because they have ABS they can drive a foot behind another car? Completely misses the point of ABS

I'd much rather see people learn to drive properly and not get into these emergency situations in the first place, but that ain't gonna happen in my life time! :(

Chris

I agree.

How many people can honestly say they can take full advantage of ABS? Its designed so you can still steer the car while braking heavily. I for one know how difficult that si to do when the situation arrises. Its very hard to keep on the brakes and steer at the same time unless you train yourself to do it. At the very least experience it in a non emergency situation, try it if you think its easy to do, you will be surprised.

The majority of drivers think ABS and ESP et al will compensate for their skills and that makes them safe. The realisation is they are there to compliment your driving ability and help out when you have pushed the car or yourself too much. Not a fail safe device to get you out of trouble when you are totally out of control and trying to beat the laws of physics. Theres only one way thats going to end and hopefully its not the end of you or someone else.

Totally agree that driving stds are not good but I'd have as many safety aspects as possible fitted. I want to make sure that I & my passengers are as safe as possible and if I hit anyone that they will have little or no injury.

It makes sense to fit as many safety devices as possible to cover all eventualities but obviously this is down to one factor at the end of the day - money. The devices will only be fitted as standard if the manufacturers can still make the right margins, otherwise you have to pay extra for them as an option.

As someone said, if it saves one life its worth it but thats not the way it works.

It makes sense to fit as many safety devices as possible to cover all eventualities but obviously this is down to one factor at the end of the day - money. The devices will only be fitted as standard if the manufacturers can still make the right margins, otherwise you have to pay extra for them as an option.

As someone said, if it saves one life its worth it but thats not the way it works.

Or legislation - in which case all new cars would raise by the cost of the ESP.

You cannot buy a new car without drivers airbags, I cannot wait until this increases to passenger/side/curtain airbags given 60-70% of all new cars sold are to fleet buyers then it will flow down to mere mortals like us who buy 2nd hand in years to come.

I think fitting better lights is vital - the further you can see the more time you have to brake (I'll ignore the posts that will come well you can drive faster - but up to the speed limits).

Speedo & rev counter on a heads up display (on your windscreen is a brillient invention and clearly will save lives).

Voice controlled MP3/radio/cd players - which actually recognise your voice will again reduce time spent not looking at the road and save lives.

You can...

Which questions the point in adding it as an option, doesn't it?

You shouldn't need to turn it off if it's developed enough, as it shouldn't spoil fun, yet should remain there for when you really need it - the way it should be.

Mine is brilliant. I want to cut loose and get the back end out on the track I can and do.

Going down the M5 in torrential rain about 2 months ago, the wheel gets pulled out of my hand and the vehicle starts to fishtail. Having been in a similar situation in my old Astra I started to fight against the cadence hoping hitting the central res was the worst thing that could happen. The light came on and it just sort itself in less than a second.

Well worth the 500 quid Technology will come soon that you can make it do what ever you want. I won't buy a car without it again.

Mine is brilliant. I want to cut loose and get the back end out on the track I can and do.

Going down the M5 in torrential rain about 2 months ago, the wheel gets pulled out of my hand and the vehicle starts to fishtail. Having been in a similar situation in my old Astra I started to fight against the cadence hoping hitting the central res was the worst thing that could happen. The light came on and it just sort itself in less than a second.

Well worth the 500 quid Technology will come soon that you can make it do what ever you want. I won't buy a car without it again.

This is certainly one thing we agree on