Was at Donnington the other week for the formula renault series bash. There was a renault r26 (last seasons f1 car) going around the track doing practise starts and doing flying laps and my god they were so noisey and extrememly quick.

All this mclaren and ferrari business looks on first looks to be bad for sport but to be honest it's a nice chunk of free PR for F1.

no one can take away what these cars can do, they are the pinnacle of motor sport and no one can deny it!

I think this is a fair punishment. I am absolutly sure that a month ago at the last hearing mclarren had an opurtunity to bring all facts into the hearing.

They clearly chose not too and got found out. As a result the punishment is very servere. I'm sure had they come clean last time the punishment would have been less servere.

as has been said before, spying has and always will be a issue with this kind of sport. All they have done is theyve been stupid enough to get caught!

i wonder how they found out about it? also the fact the ferrari mech in question has never faced anything like merclaren did?

for many years now ive been disapointed with F1. i prefer BTCC and other closer racing. the old caterham 7 racing is far more fun than f1 now days!

i wonder how they found out about it?

Not sure how true this is, but I heard that the chap working for McLaren who had it in his possession got found out when his wife took the document to the local copy shop to be reproduced!

Chris

I would say that there is unlikely to be any Ferrari concieved ideas on the McLaren car, but I dont think this is the issue. What is, is that McLaren know what Ferrari were doing down to the small detail and they were then able to determine areas of weakness and exploit them tactically. The emails that are supposed to have been tracked between the drivers were discussing the set up of the Ferrari at different tracks (apparently), that is very powerful information to be in possesion of, and when you are talking about fractions of a second, it can be enough to make the difference.

:iagree: - It doesn't take a very good systems engineer to see that knowing "invisible design details", such as fuel tank size, weight distribution, is an advantage without needing to change your car. As is knowing that one of your rivals has investigated a blind alley, so you don't have to...

I'm not a Ferrari fan but also think McLaren got away lightly here. It is obvious the management at the top of the team didn't set out to cheat, but when the information fell into their hands they should have gone straight to the FIA and/or Ferrari and told them exactly what had happened. I don't believe that only Coughlan knew about the information (indeed I think that had previously been confirmed)

If you read the text here it is clear to see they were pretty guilty:

autosport.com - F1 News: FIA reveals evidence that led to penalty

I also agree that if a McLaren driver wins this years championship it will be somewhat tainted. They were very lucky to not get away with losing drivers points. Whilst it wouldn't exactly be fair on the drivers, if they were driving with an advantage.....

Looks like Alonso was in on it more than Hamilton, so I especially hope Alonso does not win this years title.

:iagree: - It doesn't take a very good systems engineer to see that knowing "invisible design details", such as fuel tank size, weight distribution, is an advantage without needing to change your car. As is knowing that one of your rivals has investigated a blind alley, so you don't have to...

I have trouble seeing this point - it's not as if the cars do battle (in a real physical sense). If they were involved in some sort of four-wheel dogfight then yes, but otherwise just knowing things about your opponents car can't help your car, unless you DO instigate similar designs surely?

I'm surprised that Ferrari haven't been penalised for the actions of one of their employees bringing the sport into disrepute. It's all very well to blame Mclaren for what happened, but smoke without fire and all that..

What had Ferrari done to bring the sport into disrepute though?

One of their mechanics left, and stole some documents that he then gave to mclaren, thats hardly Ferarris fault?:confused:

What had Ferrari done to bring the sport into disrepute though?

One of their mechanics left, and stole some documents that he then gave to mclaren, thats hardly Ferarris fault?:confused:

And I think you will also find that the ex-Ferrari employee is being changed with criminal offences by the italian police and may well end up in jail if proved guilty.

I have trouble seeing this point - it's not as if the cars do battle (in a real physical sense). If they were involved in some sort of four-wheel dogfight then yes, but otherwise just knowing things about your opponents car can't help your car, unless you DO instigate similar designs surely?

It's difficult to explain unless you're a systems engineer, when it's blindingly obvious. Would the fact that other team principals are on record (months ago) as saying that knowing things like actual weight distribution and fuel tank size of their rivals would intrinsically give tham an advantage without the need to copy components be enough to convince you?

I would say that there is unlikely to be any Ferrari concieved ideas on the McLaren car, but I dont think this is the issue. What is, is that McLaren know what Ferrari were doing down to the small detail and they were then able to determine areas of weakness and exploit them tactically. The emails that are supposed to have been tracked between the drivers were discussing the set up of the Ferrari at different tracks (apparently), that is very powerful information to be in possesion of, and when you are talking about fractions of a second, it can be enough to make the difference.

Mike Coughlan and Ferrari's Nigel Stepney were keen to get into Honda. Honda really needed something as the last 2 years have been dire, and several top honcho's within Honda have their neck on the line. They could have asked for just about any salary, and Honda would have gladly paid them I'm sure.

I think this is a fair punishment. I am absolutly sure that a month ago at the last hearing mclarren had an opurtunity to bring all facts into the hearing.

They clearly chose not too and got found out. As a result the punishment is very servere. I'm sure had they come clean last time the punishment would have been less servere.

From the Official FIA release, it appears that *at the time* of the first hearing, Dennis and his top management provided all the evidence that they knew of.

It was actually after a thorough systems check (to take action against Coughlan and assist Ferrari's court case against Stepney - as per high court injunction) that evidence was found that PDR and Alonso appeared to know information that was thought within McLaren only Coughlan knew.

Dennis then reported this to the FIA immediately.

Reading between the lines, the FIA gave the driver deal in the hope of exposing more than just the McLaren/Ferrari issues and clense the sport of dodgy dealings. This had clearly back fired.

And I think you will also find that the ex-Ferrari employee is being changed with criminal offences by the italian police and may well end up in jail if proved guilty.

I beleive that along with stealing confidential data, and passing it on to an unauthorised party, that there is evidence that Stepney sabotaged the Ferrari's at the Monaco GP.

I'd love to know what the white powder (and other reported things) are about, and how that would have assisted the two of them in their pursuit of jobs at Honda.

Surely this would have also needed sabotage, and data, of McLaren too. Yet we've heard nothing on this..........

it seems Renault are being mentioned now by McClaren to the FIA ,

i wonder if this is being done to taint Renault just in case Alonso goes back there next season

Given exactly who at Macca the evidence clearly shows actively cheating, is it any surprise that people are starting to ask questions about Alonso's time at Renault?

Apparently it is to o with an employee of McLaren that left to join Renault, and who took some disks of info with him. Dont think its the same sort of info that when between Ferrari and McLaren.

Also I dont think all this is over yet. It would seem in the background that the FIA are not allowed legally to give anyone imunity for giving evidence, and therefore the drivers may yet have there points cancelled, but i think that might all happen once the season is over.

Even if the driver points do stand, Ferrari will most likely contest Mclaren's driver championship win (let's face it..) on the same grounds when the season is over. I doubt they'll let it stand despite their statement that they're happy with the ruling,

If the drivers are penalised the case for Alonso getting penalised and not Hamilton is stronger because Alonso was aware of and used the information from Ferrari.

Can't see Alonso sticking around at McLaren next year after what has come out over this: autosport.com - F1 News: Transcript highlights Dennis/Alonso row

He should go back to Renault where he will get the 'special help' he apparantly needs.

I see full transcripts of both the July and September hearings are available at World Motor Sport Council Transcripts

81 and 115 pages respectively, so a bit of bedtime reading :eek:

While it does seem the Hamilton did not have knowledge of the specifics of the Ferrari, it would be very difficult to prove that he didnt benefit from the information in same way. Other members of staff that did have access to the info, which must include a fair few of the race and test pit crew may well have given Hamilton 'advice' on what to try without him actually knowing where the motivation for the advice had come from. So to say he hasn't gained an advantage would be naive.

/\ There I have to agree. :( OTOH I'd also say that there appears to be no evidence that he was actively and knowingly cheating, unlike certain other members of the Silver team's staff.

/\ There I have to agree. :( OTOH I'd also say that there appears to be no evidence that he was actively and knowingly cheating, unlike certain other members of the Silver team's staff.

Exactly. If you look at it in the broadest terms, it seems somewhat odd to penalise McLaren but to let their drivers carry on with no penalty even though they've been using an 'illegal' car. But the case against Alonso is certainly stronger than against Hamilton.

so when will we see the penalty for Ferrari's flexible floor imposed?

or have the F(errari) I(nnocence) A(ssured) forgotten about that ?

IMO its just ferari showing they have connections and stamping their feet like a spoilt child!

Personally I used to watch F1 religiously but now I cant be arsed - its boring - bring back the old senna and mansell days!!

Steve

so when will we see the penalty for Ferrari's flexible floor imposed?

or have the F(errari) I(nnocence) A(ssured) forgotten about that ?

Em, that was against the spirit of the tech regs, not the letter, which just required it to not bend under a given load. And whilst there's no evidence that this is the case, I'm blowed if I know how Macca could detect it without using illicitly obtained information about the details of the Ferrari design.