Octavia 1.9 PD tdi BXE engine slow off the mark after new cambelt ?

[johnny cabbage head]

Hi ,Just had my 1.9 pd  BXE Octavia cambelt water pump idler tensioner, replaced, got it back and it wasnt pulling right -opened bonnet and found boost pipe popped out incorrectly fitted, car seemed ok , however found water pump leak and took car back, to the indy who did job.

 

On getting the car back It feels like its taking just that bit longer to accelerate, and get up to speed ,also top end speed seems slower. There is no smoke and it starts fine . I checked on my VCDS and torsion value in block 4 shows 0.0 .

I wonder whether the ECU needs to "re learn" my style of driving ..its just not quite right and Im off to france fully loaded next week, so in a quandry as to whether to leave it alone and and see if engine responds better after a few hundred miles ?

 

I have heard that the timing if out of range will show 0.0 on VCDS ?? but surely it would be showing poor starting and lumpy idling?

 

I think the way to explain it would be that it sounds a bit raspy and runs out of steam slightly before it should do at the top end of the revs...going to re check the boost pipes today ..if it stops raining long enough...and also take my grand daughter back to liverpool from N wales so will be able to see how it performs on the motorway, MPG etc. any clues or advice would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks in advance

[johnny cabbage head]

just to add  Block 4 reading 0.0 torsion value at idle when running at 82c...also fule consuption block 15 showing 0.40 l/hr which seems right ???

[robt100]

Mine felt similar when i first got it, turned out it was timed half a tooth out, I think this normally happens when its not set from a cold engine. Thats what my indy tells me, since he done the cambelt its been spot on!

[cherry evo]

Some guys just mark up the pulleys and fit the belt and dont use the pins and slacken off the bolts on the cam pulley - this gives the fine tuning of the cam so therefore the injection timing. When I did the belt & pump on my Altea BXE, I slackened them off, after it was much smoother and quieter, pulled the same as before.

[johnny cabbage head]

thanks for your replies guys...Just got back from liverpool and gave it a good run on the motorway, that revealed that its kind of running out of guts too early, just managed to get to 100mph with foot flat to the floor and normally it would still be pulling away and gathering speed before even touching the floor..its also drinking the diesel...just trying to suss out whether it needs advancing slightly -or retarding, it definately need fine tuning thats for sure, will scour the net and see what I can find about timing 1.9 8v pd tdi BXE  engines, I recall seeing somewhere that BXE  engines favour 0.05 either plus or minus to get better smoother power and economy. It starts without any hesitation but Its obviously using too much fuel  and at the same time underpowered. looks like Im going to have to slacken off the 3 bolts on cam pulley and nudge it one way or the other and see what difference it makes ...I have not got any alignment tools but I should be able to adjust it as its only the cam I am altering slightly if I understand correctly ?

[tonyuk74]

Adjust cam too far and you could end up with valve and piston contact. Then you are in deep poopoo. Either take it back to who did it or get the tools.

[cherry evo]

As you've paid for it to be done, I'd take it back as if you start to make adjustments then your man will wash his hands of it - not good should there be problems down the road...

[johnny cabbage head]

thanks for input guys...the thing is It is showing o.o torsion so he could argue that its "bang on" from that reading , but when the temp is up to 86c I have a block 15 reading of 0.20 lts /hr which from looking  from other VCDS  forums should be 0.40l/hr. the multi function display was showing low mpg on motorway last night and its definateley not quite there (only a ball park figure  but at least an indicator of mpg)

.I understand that I should take it back to the garage...But  before I do that I will inspect the position of the camshaft 13 mm bolts to see if they are centralized or scewed right over ...(which indicates a "mark and pray" method of changing cambelt) - if this is the case I will take it back to the garage and ask some pointed questions.  I have noted that many of the torsion settings vary hugely between -3.0 to +3.0  as its a highly changeable tolerance from one car to another...if the bolts are central then it should be OK to move the cam slightly...literally 0.5 of a degree and the results on performance can be very significant indeed according to a very long and interesting TDI pd thread I found from guys who are all using VCDS  and many of them VAG  mechanics.

 

To the casual observer ..the car drives fine...but I know the car as its owner for the last 4 yrs and its performance has dropped a fair way since this job has been done.

Has anyone else set up their car timing on a 1.9 pd 8v tdi using VCDS ..be interested to hear any accounts , according to TDI forum  even taking your torsion reading before changing belt with VCDS  AND using proper lock out tools can produce variability of -2.0 to + 2.0 on the the torsion after this procedure has been carried out ... so its quite an emotive subject ...some set cam belts slightly advanced to allow for retarding as belt stretches slightly.

I understand that interferance can take place if the setting is too far  resulting in engine damage... but if its showing 0.0 torsion and the bolts are central on cam then I should be ok to tweak it + 0.5   the manufacturers put that marked window in the cam pulley for that very reason from what I understand.

I am on a steep steep learning curve with the hidden mysteries of cambelt timing ..any pearls of wisdom from our esteemed techies would be welcome :thumbup:

[johnny cabbage head]

Some guys just mark up the pulleys and fit the belt and dont use the pins and slacken off the bolts on the cam pulley - this gives the fine tuning of the cam so therefore the injection timing. When I did the belt & pump on my Altea BXE, I slackened them off, after it was much smoother and quieter, pulled the same as before.

yes thats why I am going to look at position of cam bolts - if they are central or scewed right over which indicates not using  locking tools...I am  starting to wonder about this garage after finding a boost hoes incorrectly fitted after the belt was fitted first time ...had to take it back because water pump was leaking so they had it for another day and a half...they were not too happy because they had to do the job again ...I have also just bought some engine mount stretch bolts to replace them as they never mentioned that ?? they reckon they "do loads of octavias"...if the weather had not been so horrendous I would have done the damn job myself..but the absence of a garage meant working on the drive in huge downpours ..so I took it to the garage......hmmm

[wiilydog]

Personally with sound of things the garage either does not know what they are doing or very sloppy. If it was my car I would not return it there and take it to a vw specialist to get it checked out. I had experience with non vag garage making a hash of a simple job and ended up costing more as another vag specialist had to pick up the mess

[johnny cabbage head]

I looked at the 3  camshaft bolts and they are well over to one side on the advanced angle..I suspect this belt has been fitted without a locking kit as I marked the bolts and slackened them enough to nudge the cam back (retarded it ) the width of the pencil line and the car would not even start so I couldnt take a torsion reading with VCDS .

I put it back to where it was on the markings and the torsion is showing 0.0 again. I intend to advance it ever so slightly to see if I can get a different reading from 0.0 torsion as if I cannot then I know the belt has definately been fitted wrongly.as the timing is out of range .

 

By the Way if you hover the cursor over the torsion value block ..it gives you suggested values ..which I wasnt aware of before so at least Ive learned something today... having a brew then back out to advance timing slightly see if torsion value changes.

be interested to find a BXE  engine running log from VCDS  but can find everything but at the moment ...typical

[johnny cabbage head]

Personally with sound of things the garage either does not know what they are doing or very sloppy. If it was my car I would not return it there and take it to a vw specialist to get it checked out. I had experience with non vag garage making a hash of a simple job and ended up costing more as another vag specialist had to pick up the mess

I was hoping this garage would be as good as they said they were, first time I got car back it ran ok ..but water pump was leaking so had to go in again ..obviously they were not thrilled at having to do the job again ...wonder if they rushed putting it back together and missed something...my torsion reading is supposedly OK  according to a tuning guy I know -though TDI forum opinions differ from car tocar 0.0 torsion is OK  but my fuel consuption is only 0.20 l/hr 

[johnny cabbage head]

I decided to loosen cam bolts and advance the timing slightly to see what /if the car ran and more so  to see if the reading for torsion measurement changed proving it wasnt out of range for VCDS  to read it (default out of range reading is 0.0 according to a TDI tech on another site). Interestingly I nudged the cam clockwise and retightened the 3 bolts..I started the car which went without hesitation..I plugged in VCDS and found to my suprise that the torsion was now showing -4.4 ! it was still within specified range at that setting so i drove it round the block carefully...no shuddering or hesitation, I put my foot down a bit and the difference in acceleration was immediate, I decided to take it for a longer run and run a log on a few blocs.

I got car up to 86c and put it through its paces on the motorway...it went like a rocket.

I have read on other forums that people have moved their cam adjustment clockwise and got a minus figure reading in torsion on VCDS  -others say they dont ?? I can only report my own findings which was clockwise produced a minus figure. My car running at this set point is still within specified settings which are between -6.0 to +6.0  I read a report from a Vag garage who had a pd engine in and the torsion was set at -5.7 and the owners said it was brilliant on the mpg and ran extremely smoothly and fast !

I am going to check what the engine temp was again on the log as I may just nudge it to about -4.0 but otherwise I am tempted to leave it a few days and see how the fuel consumption is .

Just thought I would report my findings in case anyone else finds themselves in a similar situation...with Hindsight I should have taken a torsion reading before I had cambelt replaced..but Im still relativly new to the nuances of VCDS. .

Best Regards Jon

Edited 3 July, 2016 by johnny cabbage head

[johnny cabbage head]

just for the record ..I spent the day arsing with different torsion settings and drove over 100 miles testing the cars response..I had it from 0.0 to +20 but that sounded a bit suspect and power was down .I nudged it to -5.4 and it seemed ok but jumped to -5.9 when driving so put it back to -4.4 where I had it before, power seems ok ...still slightly under but I am sick of messing with it and I am driving to france tomorrow so will see how the MPG goes...maybe the sweetest spot is still to be found ..I may take my laptop and tools with me just in case of any dramas - though I dont think the missus will be too impressed sitting outside the tent whilst I mess with the car will report back when I return . Thanks to all :thumbup:  one thing I cant alter on VCDS is the weather ...and it doesnt look too wonderful at present :(

[johnny cabbage head]

 (Just in case anyone is interested in my findings ) Arruved Back from France last night, car was loaded up to the headlining with camping gear 48kg tent , Fridge, food, two bikes on the back tow hitch.

 

Even just behind the front seats we were loaded up to the head lining- Im talking proper full. two adults in the front and doing between 70 and 90 mph  did Dover in 4.5 hrs 320 miles , so average speed was 71mph. However we were on a 50mph speed limit on some roadworks and M6 was shut to had to drive through stoke on trent - once on M40 it was 90 mph all the way.

I filled up again in Belgium and did the maths worked out 41.9 mpg with torsion set at -4.4 on VCDS  car drove fine though I think the power could do with coming in at slightly lower revs . I intend to re fill tomorrow and see what MPG was on way back - though we were crawling up the M25 yesterday for 65 miles - took us 2 hrs, I then floored it to make up time, going mostly 85 /90mph  and 100 mph at times. will see how it works out MPg wise, before making a decision to perhaps advance timing slightly to arounf - 3.0 torsion reading.

[johnny cabbage head]

Just to complete the story   on the france trip return leg -the car returned 43mpg fully loaded to the roof lining with two adults , and two bikes hanging off the back of the tow ball hitch bike carrier.I wasnt driving for economy I just wanted to get home and drove it hard when possible, I guess 43mpg isnt too bad, thats a fill up calculation based on fuel /mileage not on the fairy story trip computer. I think i will advance timing slightly to see if the power comes in a bit earlier though as I fell its not at its optimum setting.