Hi There..

1st time poster,so please be gentle.Im feeling bad enough already..

I have a 2002 V6 TDi superb,it has suffered very little probs over its 55k miles. Its had the damp passenger carpet syndrome and pair of CV gaiters,but its been a great car really..

TILL NOW...

Car will not rev up,and the traction control light is on permanently.. When you try to drive the car,plumes of heavy diesel smoke come out of the exhaust and the car just crawls along..

The engine also sounds different,it seems to have a heavy diesel knock,and the idle is a little unstable.

The AA came out to me,and plugged in his diagnostics machine... No faults in the cars ECU apparenently.. He checked that it didnt have contaminated fuel in then towed me to my local independant..Who are diagnostic specialists amongst other things.

They immedietly suspected the air flow meter,as there machine got out a couple of codes relating to this being the prob. They cleaned it and refitted it to the car,no such luck.The 2 codes have no disappeared but there is one left,it says something like"injector timing value incorrect".. (This maybe not exactly be the description)..

There is an Auto trans fault and ABS fault,these say "incorrect signal from ECU".

The injector pump itself is now the suspected fault...

Had a look around the net and cant seem to find anything about the pumps failing,or any other issues that sound like mine to be honest..

Would my damp floor on the nearside have anything to do with it????

SO... Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated??

Cleaning the air meter seldom does any good, and normally it won't cause heavy smoke just a loss of power, the damp has to be the major suspect as you have three things going wrong with it now, and rusty contacts should be your look for in this case, how many miles has it done btw, if it's over the 150k mark I'd be looking to break it now if I were you because the box is going to cost 2k to put right, ABS will probably add another £700 and you'll still have the engine fault.

If the cambelt and pump belt are in good order and the engine timing is correct then can verify pump timing dynamically, if this is out and cannot be adjust a pump could be likely, have changed quite a few for this problem. Not a quick job and the pump isnt cheap, also has to be coded to the car via immobilizer so unless you have the securoty code may be a dealer job.

Also the automatic garbox and ABS faults wil be because of the engine fault, not faults with those systems.

Thanks for the replies guys..

Superbia... car has only done 55k.... not about to break it!!!

Lummox...

Thanks for the info..

As you suspect im sure all the trans faults and Abs faults are connected,as there has been no issues at all with these beforehand..

What actually goes wrong with the pump to cause this problem ?? And why is it connected to the Trans and ABS fault? Does the trans ECU and ABS ECU "speak" to the pump ECU and then that brings faults up in turn??

Sick as a parrot really at this fault,especially as it has low miles..:(

Any idea of total cost if it is pump,belts,coding etc etc ??

Edited 7 December, 200817 yr by Superb2.5...

The electronic VE pumps fitted to this engine have closed loop control of injection timing. There is a hydraulic actuator for the roller ring, much as is on the standard VE but with a control valve. A position transducer closes the loop so that the ECU can set and maintain any desired timing within the mechanical range possible.

These pumps are bad news and it's my belief that the actuators and transducers within them are not resistant either to vibration or thermal cycling. Having said that, it's well worth doing a basic timing check to see if the mechanical settings are all to spec. before going in too far.

After reading all of the codes, cambelt, water pump condition and pump belt would be my starting points.

rotodiesel.

Actually, from description and the 55k mark which is close to TB wear limit, I'd suspect that the timing belt jumped a tooth.

Definitely check dynamic timing at idle - VAG-COM will help, preferably with someone who knows how to use it.

Leave injection pump till last; injection pump is the favourite component to quote to inexperienced car users by unscrupulous mechanics, as it is the most expensive . The next favourite is the turbocharger. Last time a friend of mine got quoted stlg700 to replace injection pump for hard start problem, I told him to swap the glow plugs, 3 of which were completely blown. It was the glow plugs.

Auto box codes are from not getting the torque required (it has a sensor), not sure about ABS. What was the car doing just before the whole hell broke loose?

Car never gave any problems at all as regards how it drove. I was living with the intermittant interior light probs..

The car just threw a wobbler on Friday morning and that was it..

The garage do use a fully liscenced version of VagCom,and im pretty sure they know how to use it. They did mention to me about dynamic pump timing,and how it has to be in a certain scale while running.... He lost me a little around that time!! lol.....

So... My next question is guys... What are the chances of the belt having jumped,is this a common issue?

Rotodiesel... Is it a likely scenario that something has gone wrong with one of the belts or the water pump to the extent that it would cause this prob ?? Are you suggesting that if the timing belt was in bad order,or the water pump had excessive play,it would cause the belt to jump a tooth and then cause the problems i am having ??

Again guys,thanks for suggestions and help.. Its really appreciated..

Due to the configuration of the "V" engine, the water pump has a huge load imposed on it by the timing belt. This is because of the large "wrap angle" of the belt around the pump wheel. There is also considerable tension in the belt at this point because only half of the engine's camshafts have been driven (at the point where the pump wheel sits). If you have ever taken an old water pump apart, it will be evident that they are not brilliantly engineered - balls running in grooves on the shaft in some instances. The best engines (eg. PSA) have the water pump on the slack side of the belt - if you really must drive it with the cambelt.

It's too easy to jump to conclusions in a case like this, particularly when expensive and inaccessible bits are concerned so do the basic mechanical checks first - always. A grossly mis-timed pump would give the symptoms you are seeing.

rotodiesel.

Thanks for that reply..

There going to have a more indepth look tommorrow,as it was Friday afternoon when i dropped it on them..

I will print this off and forward all suggestions to them. They openly admitted that its an engine they have very little experience with,but I am confident in there ability,so hopefully we will get some answers soon enough.

Fingers crossed eh....:(

Ahhh, at 55k there shouldn't be any problem with the box or abs so that's one good thing, and as Lummox says it's a knock on effect causing it, try to eliminate the low cost options 1st, can you see anything around the fuel filter, is the air filter clean, and put a fuel treatment in it incase an injector is blocked, after that it looks like it will get expensive.

Is there a way of checking the belt without taking the car apart, i.e like the 1.9 you can slide the top cover off, if there is ask one of the lads to advise which marks should be where to eliminate a timing problem, hth, sorry I can't be anymore help with it, as it's not an engine I know, and it could be one of many things.

Finally, is it possible the boost sensor is playing up?

Good luck when you take it in - let us know how you get on

Regards

Hmmm..

Been up there this morning..

Fault code is...

00550 start of injection regulation.

17-10 control difference-intermittant.

There scratching there heads a bit. They reckon that the next step is to pull the front of the engine down and start probing into valve timing issues..:confused:

Anyone throw any light on what these fault codes actually mean ??????

TIA

This is a typical toothbelt jump code. Probably advanced by 1 tooth (BTDC).

Best cure is to replace the belts - you have to do it anyway at this mileage. But if the garage are clueless about 2.5V6 TDI, go somewhere else. You need a V6 TDI timing kit to set everything correctly, "mark and pray" method just won't do here.

Edit: From your report it looks like this garage is desperately trying to make extra money out of you, next thing you'll hear they need to take the heads off

Thanks for that diesel V6..

Perhaps i paint my local indy in a bad light.. ha ha.. Perhaps its the way i am wording the report.

They have done my families cars for years and we have had no cause for issues with them..Always been reliable and dependent.

Perhaps im expecting an answer to quickly,it was only towed to them on Friday afternoon.

From what has seen said,they seem to be on the right trail anyway. They did say that they havent a lot of experience with this engine,but i dont take that as a sign of incompetence on there part..i have seen a classic Ferrari and Porsche 911's over the years in there,and they seem to have a heck of a lot of expensive BMW's in a majority of the time.

Anyway,less of that...

Im resigning myself to letting them get on with it,and hopefully a timing belt change will sort out my problem!!

Edit: From your report it looks like this garage is desperately trying to make extra money out of you, next thing you'll hear they need to take the heads off

I'm not one for knowing much on the V6 TDI but I agree with the pump/jumped belt issue.

Additionally I completely agree with Diesel here - sounds like the garage are doing so but I think it's more to do with their uncertainty than any malintention.

Just a small point - if the car is a 2002 surely the Cambelt will/should have been changed in 2006 regardless of mileage. I wonder if it was?

Regards

Just a small point - if the car is a 2002 surely the Cambelt will/should have been changed in 2006 regardless of mileage. I wonder if it was?

Fair point... but of course if there's nothing to suggest is has... it probably hasn't!

I agree though, from what Roto's suggesting the V6 seems to be harsh on cambelts so if it's not had one I'd have bet money on it snapping by now.

Well guys...

Timing covers stripped off when i went in this morning.. All kinds of tools inserted here and there in pulleys,camshafts etc etc..

Cambelt and pump belt are in good order,nice and tight and most importantly the valve and pump timing isnt out. :(

There suspecting a pump problem...

Gutted :(

Just to say... Car was "supposed" to have belts changed when i bought it 2 years ago.. The belts that are on it are VW/Audi items as i spotted the symbols on the belts this morning.

It does seem that the belts were changed in 2006 then. Let's hope they sort it quick and it is not expensive?

keep us posted and good luck

Well guys...

Cambelt and pump belt are in good order,nice and tight and most importantly the valve and pump timing isnt out. :(

.

And how exactly did they measure "good timing" without engine running?

It is dynamic measurement, ie engine running, and you read it out via VAG-COM.

I can imagine one more failure mode- the TB working but the 3 screws on the pump that hold timing value were loose and gave in. Possible, especially that a lot of these engines were adjusted for hard cold start problem (there was a Skoda service note on this) - I had to adjust mine too.

Did you get dynamic tming values? how much BTDC / ATDC?

Without these dynamic measurements, injection pump replacement still sounds like a con to me, sorry.

You are losing me a little here..

But they did explain to me that they had run the car and tried to check the dynamic timing. Apparently the engine needs to be run between a certain rev range(is it 2800-3500) ??

When this was tried with VAG-Com the timing values would come up on tickover,but when the RPM's were increased,the graph showed *error* with a message of a BTDC fault..(cant remember what actual info i was told)..

This was done before the timing covers were removed,as they did think the belt had jumped as well..

Just a bit more info...

From cold start,the car will only run briefly,the cut out..This happens about 5-6 times until it will finally idle and the engine sounds like an old tractor!!

Dont know if this is relevant...just forgot to mention it earlier in the thread...

So... I will pop in tommorrow and mention the pump screw thing to them.. See what transpires..

There having bits of time inbetween other work to try and sort the Superb out,as there chocka block with work that was booked in..

Hopefully when they can dedicate more time and concentrate on it a little more,a definate answer will come forth...

Once again Diesel V6..Thanks for your time and contribution to my probs..

For dynamic timing the engine needs to be run at idle, not 2800-3200rpm. Looks like they do not have a clue :confused:. The only condition for measurement is that the engine is heated up, but even if you cannot wait that long you can offset the graph in TDI Timing checker in VAG Com.

It's the values on tickover, with engine warm, that you are interested in. Also, basic setting for injection pump timing can be checked, and with VAG-Com you can do shortly after startup .

If there is BTDC error, that means that timing is wayy out of range, ie the fuel is injected much too early. Again, this points to slip of the belt or the pump gear.

Just to clarify, the pump gear wheel (the thing that is run by the belt) is attached to the pump by 3 bolts sitting in circular slots. It is these 3 bolts that get slackened/tightened during timing adjustment procedure, and the gear wheel is moved respective to the pump shaft. So if the bolts are not tightened enough, over time vibration will cause them to loosen up further and at some point timing will shift quite radically. Blame the mechanic who adjusted the timing earlier (possibly before you owned the car).

Of course, the pump can be knackered, but to replace it without basic timing checks sounds like extortion.If there is an error, they should first try to remove the error by adjusting timing on the pump.

There is enough movement on the injection pump gear bolts that you can cause the symptoms which you describe. If the belt does not appear to have jumped, I would still look at the timing before splashing stlg700+ on a new pump. Especially that all the test operations I described so far take about 5 minutes in real life if the mechanic knows what he is doing with VAG-Com.

The pump timing on these engines is more of a pain in the **** than a tetanus shot. This is certainly one of my main reasons for not liking the V6 TDI and I'm sure Roto will agree, but of course I'm not wanting to start that debate again.

However Diesel, as usual, is making sense of things that many of us baulk at - and the timing procedure he describes (complex as it may be) could save you hundreds of pounds in the long run.

At least, till the pump fails for definite... :lol:

Quote of the week must be:

The pump timing on these engines is more of a pain in the **** than a tetanus shot.