I'm sure this has been covered before, in terms of the DOT giving their 'view' (not law) that a) as it's not mentioned in lighting regs, it's not legal (on the basis only things mentioned are permissable) and that it's permissable if EU type approved and conforming, that means genuine factory fit with the headlamp washers & auto level adjusters.

On the basis that they can pass the MOT & not being mentioned in lighting regs may not (if anyone knows legally let me know) specifically peclude them, given that LED lights are common and also not specifically mentioned, I decided to contact the legal questions department of the police.

I wanted to know the police's view, if they view HID's as a cast in stone 'illigal' and if so what exactly are the penalty/how many have been prosecuted. This is the reply and on the basis of it, I'm quite inclined to buy an HID kit providing it's not blue (6000k max) and that I get a good aim and have it aligned well, perhaps slightly on the low side to avoid dazzling. Here goes:

"

None of the below is a general policy of the police service, there are a number of Forces and each may take a different approach. The below is just at attempt at an interpretation of the law.

There isn't a simple answer to this, the only way we will find out for certain is when the Courts make a determination on the matter.

As long as the dipped headlamps do not cause any dazzle (the beam is correctly focused in the same way the original halogen lamp would be focused), it is difficult to see the matter getting to court. However, there is some logic in the DOT site comments and Xenon bulbs can be very bright if not fitted in the correct housing, so there is definitely a possibility of a fine for a dazzling headlamp under regulation 27 of the Lighting Regs.

Whether CPS would try to prosecute for not having correctly fitted headlights under regulation 18 is only likely if these lamps are perceived to be menace to road safety and there is public pressure for something to be done.

The penalty is a maximum £1000.

Please note:

PNLD does not have the resources to research every email in depth. This reply is intended as a guide only. The advice you are given is based on the information provided. You are advised to seek professional advice before any further action is taken, see Terms and Conditions for further information.

Regards,

PNLD"

IMO the aftermarket kits are illegal.

I base that thought that the headlamp assembly was designed around the exact dimensions and light output of a halogen bulb. Put a HID bulb in there and the dimensions of the light source will be different and then so be reflected differently from the headlamp unit. This DOES cause light scatter, in other words, light will be sent out the headlamp in a different direction than originally designed, probably in the direction of oncoming traffic.

If your car has projector headlamps then I cant see that the above applies as the light is "focused" behind the projector lens and then directed by that lens. Wouldnt matter what is behind there as it has still got to be directed by the lens rather than reflected by a normal headlamp unit.

If people were a tad more sensible in using aftermarket HIDS (not using them in reflector units) then there probably wouldnt be so much interest from the DoT and the Five-Oh.

Steve

From a technical point of view you should not use a HID bulb in a headlight unit not designed for it. There are loads of technical reasons why that bang on about light frequencies and scatter and lenses etc etc.

I have had two cars with HIDs fitted, both with projector headlamps. I personally don't find this to be a problem and I have never been blinded from a car with projector lenses coming the other way. Difficult to know if every car that came the other way had factory fit xenons vs. aftermarket HID but still the fact remains.

HOWEVER.

I have been blinded by several pr1cks who shove a HID kit behind a reflector light and think that's OK. It isn't, it really isn't. Whether they're behind you or coming towards you, it's very blinding due to the focus and scatter. Infact, it's one of my massive hates and I genuinely hope that each and every one of them is pulled up and fined the maximum £1000.

I can't see how any car with reflector lights and HIDs can pass a MOT test as the beam pattern is all over the shop.

Equally I am frequently blinded by normal headlights. It is amazing how many cars have them set too high.

In addition 4x4, van and lorry headlights are a pain.

To the other end though it amazes me how many car have the dip beam lighting about 10m and thats it.

Equally I am frequently blinded by normal headlights. It is amazing how many cars have them set too high.

In addition 4x4, van and lorry headlights are a pain.

To the other end though it amazes me how many car have the dip beam lighting about 10m and thats it.

I agree, car fully loaded and lights are blinding air traffic they are set that high........

There is a knack to do your best to concentrate on something on the road ahead rather than the headlights themselves, if that makes sense. If you look at the headlights, you will be blinded to a degree, HIDS or no HIDS. If you try to focus on the road or verge ahead then the light wont blind you so much, if at all.

If a unit is set to high, it shouldnt really affect oncoming traffic unless you are negotatiing a right hand bend as UK headlights are set to point slightly to the curbside.

Steve

Got to agree that this gets my goat it is very annoying !! ,however, I'm also suprised at the response.. lets face it no-one should ever be prosocuted on an 'interpretation' of a law the law should be just that LAW written in stone and unchanging (until someone changes it:D) but the fact that you could fit them believing them to comply but PC Bob doesn't think it is even though PC John let you off the week before pi$$es me right off ... if the LAW isn't clear then get a ruling sort it out and then tell people what it is THEN you can start to prosocute if they ignore it!!

Yes, it's frustrating.

Do we know of anyone that has been to court/got a fine/fpn for specifically HID offence? EG not a 'not showing a white light' or 'dazzling' offences which in a well fitted HID kit wouldn't be an issue and could be just as much an issue with blue bulbs in some crashed up Nova etc.

Greg.

Got to agree that this gets my goat it is very annoying !! ,however, I'm also suprised at the response.. lets face it no-one should ever be prosocuted on an 'interpretation' of a law the law should be just that LAW written in stone and unchanging (until someone changes it:D) but the fact that you could fit them believing them to comply but PC Bob doesn't think it is even though PC John let you off the week before pi$$es me right off ... if the LAW isn't clear then get a ruling sort it out and then tell people what it is THEN you can start to prosocute if they ignore it!!

This is a little FAQ I did some time back that explains the situation in a little more detail. Sorry about the spelling and grammar, I never got round to finishing it.

Q: Are retrofit HID bulbs that replace Halogen bulbs road legal?

A: No. All headlights are approved for there bulb type and only a approved bulb of that type can be used. For HID bulbs you must use a ECE98 approved headlight coded with a “E98” and “D”. These will take a HID approved bulb type such as a D2S or D2R.

Q: But my retrofit HID bulb are approved has DOT, ISO9001, E11 and/or E4 printed on it so they must be legal right?

E: No.

DOT, when it comes down to vehicle lighting DOT is a US standard that does not apply to the UK. Any car imported from the US actually has to have there lights replaced for ECE approved ones if they don't already hold the correct approval.

ISO9001, This has nothing to do with road legality in any way shape or form. It is a total irrelevance when it comes to vehicle lighting.

E11, The name for the ECE regulation number 11 is “Door latches and retention components” and as you may have guessed has nothing to do with vehicle lighting laws. If you do have this printed on its possible the lights are counterfeit.

E4, This one is to do with numberplates this time and nothing to do with vehicles headlights. Yet again its possible your goods are counterfeit if they hold this mark. Or as its very easy to pass the E4 regulations the manufacturer may got a legitimate E4 mark in the hope they can confuse people in to there legality. But this mark in no ways make then legal to use as headlights.

Q: If I take a ECE98 HID approved headlight and approved HID bulbs from another car and fit them to my car is that ok?

A: No. All such approved bulbs also fall under ECE regulation number 48. As these bulbs are so bright they require a few extra safety systems that. Must be fitted to legal used such headlights.

Q: I hear ECE48 only applies to new vehicles so they must not apply to me retrofitting HIDs Right?

A: No. This is a myth that has done the rounds on the internet but is simply not true. Back in 2006 the UK Governments Department For Transport issued a fact sheet reiterating the requirements for any retrofit HID headlight to be used on the road.

Q: I hear that all this is erelevant as no the law has never been tried in court, is this true?

A: No. This is yet another internet myth. Both the Road Safety Act and Road Traffic Act are both sound laws tried many times in court. If the Police did find you with illegal lights on the road they are perfectly within there rights to fine your on the spot or even confiscate your vehicle without having to go to court. However the option is still there for them to take you to court if they wished to throw the book at you. The courts can issue a £2500 fine or £1000 for privet vehicle on your first offence.

Q: I really like these blue and purple headlight bulbs are these road legal?

A: No. There are stringent regulations covering the colour of headlights. You can only use E approved headlights bulbs and these will be white or yellow in colour.

Q: I have found HID sold as 10,000K and they say they are E marked are these legal?

A: No. As of the date I wrote this the HID bulb with the highest colour temperature to achieve E approval was 5800K. Anything much over that and your safe to assume they are fakes and have a fraudulent E marking.

Q: I have a vehicle that came with 35W HIDs and wish to upgrade them to 50/55W is this legal?

A: No. They will not have valid E approval. If you wish to use the vehicle you will have to retain your 35W bulbs.

Edited 5 January, 200917 yr by NEWCAR

Hi Greg,

I don't know anyone who has any problem with the police, but I do know one guy who failed an MOT after retrofitting them. Handwritten comment on MOT was 'Non compliant headlight units (not type approved for this vehicle)'. They were properly adjusted, so I'm not quite sure why they had anything to say on the matter.

Hi Greg,

I don't know anyone who has any problem with the police, but I do know one guy who failed an MOT after retrofitting them. Handwritten comment on MOT was 'Non compliant headlight units (not type approved for this vehicle)'. They were properly adjusted, so I'm not quite sure why they had anything to say on the matter.

Because they werent correct units, no auto leveling, headlight washers....

You have read the DOT rules on this, and this thread, havent you?

Interesting to know, although I think that may have been an invalid fail. Particularly as now it's compuerised you have to select a reason in the regs to attach to the relevent failure and that hand witten bit with his 'opinion' doesn't sound like it was an MOT fail, although I think it is a correct comment. It's quite possible to have an illegal vehicle pass the MOT as I understand it, passing MOT regs and passing an SVA or a type approval are all very different as I understand it, yet all may be required on a particular vehicle in certain applications (kit cars) for example.

Cheers buddy, interesting to know! Greg.

Hi Greg,

I don't know anyone who has any problem with the police, but I do know one guy who failed an MOT after retrofitting them. Handwritten comment on MOT was 'Non compliant headlight units (not type approved for this vehicle)'. They were properly adjusted, so I'm not quite sure why they had anything to say on the matter.

I don't think he missed it, DOT rules, Type approval for new vehicles etc, are not the same as MOT regulations. There is nothing about headlight leveling or washers specific to HID within MOT regs that I'm aware of, other than perhaps requirement for factory fitted gear to be in working order.

Greg.

Because they werent correct units, no auto leveling, headlight washers....

You have read the DOT rules on this, and this thread, havent you?

But the MOT is based on DOT rules, so would be covered automatically for the reasons mentioned. Aftermarket HIDs without self levelling AND headlight washers is illegal, and warrant of an MOT failure.

Naturally, VOSA have the final say if you get failed for aftermarkets, and as DOT backs them up, the fail would stand.

Of course Greg, you can always contact VOSA

PS, please dont top post. It's a PITA to follow quotes, and not considered good etiquette on forums and news groups.

As others have correctly said a MOT test is not a comprehensive test of a vehicle legality and that its perfectly possible to have a none road legal car pass a MOT. However often many of these illegal HID lights will fail a MOT.

Colour is part of the MOT test and only white and yellow headlights will pass. So all these mad colours you can get are all a fail.

Beam test will often be failed by retrofit bulbs or even just very high power bulbs in general.

As HID bulbs take time to fire up if there fitted to a car that had halogen bulbs and turned low beam of as you turned high beam on you just get darkness as swapping from low to high or high to low beam and this fails the MOT.

Cheap kits often flicker, change colour or even lack a high or low beam in its completely. Any one of these also fails a MOT.

However if any MOT tester spots anything they believe is not legal or they believe is unsafe they are quite within there rights to refuse to pass your vehicle.

If your going to fit a HID kit to a car and you don't have the right lamps or you have gone for a stupid colour your going to get stopped and pink slipped and/or you will fail your MOT.

If you do a conversion and make sure it's all within the various guidelines you won't get stopped and you will pass an MOT.

The law is clear on the specifics however the specifics are that complicated for most people it might as well be written in Mandarin. It's up to the individual what and how they do it if at all, you pays your money, you take the risk. The pros of fitting a HID kit for most are cosmetic but done right they are miles ahead of standard bulbs. You could spend weeks debating all this HID stuff (As we have done in the past) but the bottom line is that despite all the laws etc it still wont stop Jonny Chav Corsa fitting them and causing an accident. Having been present at many, many MOT's and having always had a tester as an immediate member of the family I can say a lot of will depend on the tester and what he see's to be roadworthy, it won't go over every facit of the car's legality but in my experiance it will always be roadworthy and above all safe. Ill never forget one nimrod having an arguement with my grandfather (Who tested his Chaviler) about the RED sidelights he had fitted and why he needed to change them to standard bulbs for the car to pass the MOT...

Will watch this thread with interest to see if it turns out like all the others

MOT is only to prove it was road legal on the day of test. VOSA do many stops around the country not just on HGV's each day, recently they (and the police) closed down two car parks in two different towns close to me and handed out prohibitation notices to a load of chav racers, from what i gather they included illegal tints, non conforming number plates, illegal exhausts, lighting and wheels that were too wide for the arches. I dont have anymore details on the exact things but im guessing the HID lights were one of the reasons as many of them have them on their cars. But anyhow the next few nights there were hardly any chav racers on the road and VOSA hinted they would be back soon to carry out more checks with the police.

I on my last car had to have my lights adjusted on the MOT to conform to MOT standards as one light was slightly higher, luckily the garage is reasonable and could see it was a case of turning the screw half round to sort it, but they do check things like that and if they got the bonnet up then they will see straight away that its an aftermarket kit.

MOT is only to prove it was road legal on the day of test. VOSA do many stops around the country not just on HGV's each day, recently they (and the police) closed down two car parks in two different towns close to me and handed out prohibitation notices to a load of chav racers, from what i gather they included illegal tints, non conforming number plates, illegal exhausts, lighting and wheels that were too wide for the arches. I dont have anymore details on the exact things but im guessing the HID lights were one of the reasons as many of them have them on their cars. But anyhow the next few nights there were hardly any chav racers on the road and VOSA hinted they would be back soon to carry out more checks with the police.

I on my last car had to have my lights adjusted on the MOT to conform to MOT standards as one light was slightly higher, luckily the garage is reasonable and could see it was a case of turning the screw half round to sort it, but they do check things like that and if they got the bonnet up then they will see straight away that its an aftermarket kit.

The police don't need Vosa to pink slip you

Most good MOT centres will adjust headlamps as a matter of course, like they would probably replace a bulb if it was out (Charging you OFC...). They also need to lift the bonnet for various checks and things like oil temp for the smoke test so they could see it's not OEM (Depends on how well it's been fitted ) but it will always come down to the individual

The police don't need Vosa to pink slip you

The police i think were just there to ensure no car got out of the car park, so vosa could use their rubber hammer on everything my experience of VOSA usually tends to be a copper flagging you in (who looks miserable) to be greeted by a friendly VOSA guy, only a couple have been jobsworths and not wanted to chat, most will have a chat and a joke with you and get you on your way quick. Ive also know VOSA people to travel in traffic cars to pull in vehicles as well as in their own VOSA vehicles. But like shifty has mentioned before in another thread if you end up at a VOSA weigh bridge you probably find HM customs, benefits, tv licensing etc all waiting for a chat. Luckily ive only ever had a HM customs guy who just wanted to sample my fuel and he too was friendly and was up for a laugh while he did his job (and explaining to me what he did and why etc).

The pros of fitting a HID kit for most are cosmetic but done right they are miles ahead of standard bulbs.

Absolutely!, proved by the fact that most people buy and fit 6000K or higher bulbs, meaning they want a useless blue or even purple tint to them.

Those who do the research properly (and will also inevitably fit them properly - a bit OCD perhaps? ) will pick the best bulb to do the job = 4300K.

:popcorn:

Absolutely!, proved by the fact that most people buy and fit 6000K or higher bulbs, meaning they want a useless blue or even purple tint to them.

Those who do the research properly (and will also inevitably fit them properly - a bit OCD perhaps? ) will pick the best bulb to do the job = 4300K.

:popcorn:

5.8 or 6k are fine, I wouldn't want to go any higher though. A lot of the purple hue is as a result of the light passing through the projector lense if fitted meaning you will get the purpleish outline on even halogens although the whiter HID light makes it stand out more. 8 or 10k bulbs are just silly and give off even less light.

I agree with most of that (projector bit)

This is a brief guide to to colour temperature to those that are unaware and think that bigger (K number) is better:

HID COLOR TEMPERATURE FAQ (Kelvin Rating)

3000k HID Kits: Yellow HID output - Ideal for fog light HID upgrades

4300k HID Kits: Bright white - Used in OEM HID applications. The brightest HID kit that we sell.

5000k HID Kits: Crisp white - Bright white output with a slight bluish hue

6500k HID Kits: Bright white with a slight bluish/purplish tinge

8000k HID Kits: Blue output

What is interesting above is why anyone would change a fog light bulb to HID?

What a lot of people think is they 'need' the blue tint in them so others know they have xenon's fitted, when in fact all they are doing is saying "aftermarket xenons fitted"

It is the brilliant bright white that gives the xenon away not a blue tint, or are people using the higher (6000K and above) to make it look like they have projectors fitted - which of course they don't look like that as you cant see anything when you are being blinded.

6k Hid light

Just don't bother going to the trouble of fitting them would be my view .

Just don't bother going to the trouble of fitting them would be my view .

They are a fantastic upgrade if you do it right. I really missed them when I got rid of my VRS hence the kit on the Roomster. The difference on the road is truely awesome with much more perception over a greater distance