Brakes - OE verdict

[BRUN]

after asking lots of questions on here, weighing up my finances etc, i decided against the 312mm brakes that are so popular, and even against aftermarket upgrade pads on OE sized discs, due to the crazy price of them !

in the end i bought genuine Skoda discs and pads in the OE size, and i had them fitted a few weeks back

now they are bedded in i feel i can give my verdict on them properly, and i have to say they are everything i wanted from my brakes !.......im not sure which pads i had on before, though my car has full dealer history, and the mechanics at work all said they wouldnt have changed my discs just yet as they had more life in them

everything is just better, especially hard braking

so if yours are due, dont dismiss an OE setup if money is tight, it may turn out better than you think !.......though i cant comment on parts from a factors etc, the genuine stuff is spot on IMO

[T. Spark]

As much as its lovely to hear your now happy with your brakes. People that upgrade to 312mm brakes have had both, and can actually give a true'er' reading of just how good, or bad the the standard brakes are.

If your discs and pads are worn on any size, replacing them with new ones, will always feel better.

I have the odd drive of my friends Fabia vRS and his standard brakes scare me. If your running standard power they scare me, if you are running remap power they are scarier, and like ive seen once or twice, hybrid power and 288mm brakes are just plain stupid.

Its like saying re-mould tyres are 'good' when youve only ever had them? You dont know any better so cant REALLY comment.

This being said, if yours is just a shopping trolly to take you to work, shops and that the standard brakes will be ok? But id rather spend that little more, in the hopes one day it might save alot more, including the odd life.

I can say 100% certain that over the years if I had kept with standard 288mm brakes when the likes of a random women decides to switch lanes infront of me on a dual carriageway as she is doing 35mph and im doing more like 70mph I would have wrote off my car that day, and as much as its the "her fault blah blah" its still moi that would suffer, so I say dont skimp on brakes or tyres. EVER.

[Disco_Mikey]

Have to agree with the above. Been driving different cars all week, jamp into my car on Friday to come home. Cleaned up the brakes before i hit the motorway as I hate the grinding noise...

5 miles down the road, had to pretty much do an emergncy stop from 70mph, and the brakes scared me, they were that bad. TBF, my pads are probably more than 1/2 worn, but it was enough to make me bin the idea of keeping the 288's on, and as soon as i can get my hands on a 312mm setup, its mine...

[BRUN]

You dont know any better so cant REALLY comment.

er, yes, i can REALLY comment lol

did i say they were as good as 312's ?..........nope, obviously they are going to be better, all i was putting across, or trying to?, was that im happy with my brakes and im glad i didnt spend the extra

i dont thrash my car around, im no boy racer, and ive got £200 more in my savings account than i otherwise would have

and i do agree that you should never 'scrimp' on safety, hence genuine parts being used, and i agree on tyres too, i will never buy a wanli ling long ding dong ditch finder ever in my life, in fact i only ever buy Michelin

[bajanpete]

(sorry for the OT) try 256mm brakes on an octy 1.6 estate.

[burno20v]

Just replaced my front ebc discs and pads on my Vrs with genuine skoda items and the difference is like night and day! The ebc one,s where cr@p at best droning away like a duff wheel bearing everytime i braked for a roundabout or junction,new items are whisper quiet and seem excellent quality,a deciding factor was a cracking price from main stealer of £80 for both discs and pad set,about the same price as local motor factors selling none genuine parts.

[vRS Dovit]

I really fancy uprating my brakes. I do fancy 312's but at the same time i dont really want to pay the £340ish for them (ebay jobs)

decisions decisions...................

[faboka vrs]

I think peope on here are too quick to dismiss the standard 288 brakes. I had mine for 18k miles before upgrading to 312. My only fault with them was the pedal feel. Braking power was never an issue. Just kept boiling the fluid LOL.

In fact Ive been tempted to drop the disc size bake down to 288 but keeping the 312 calipers. That way I could use 15's for trackdays.

[andypandypoos]

the OEM brakes on my Ibiza seem to do me just dandy...:P

[vindaloo]

after asking lots of questions on here, weighing up my finances etc, i decided against the 312mm brakes that are so popular, and even against aftermarket upgrade pads on OE sized discs, due to the crazy price of them !

in the end i bought genuine Skoda discs and pads in the OE size, and i had them fitted a few weeks back

now they are bedded in i feel i can give my verdict on them properly, and i have to say they are everything i wanted from my brakes !.......im not sure which pads i had on before, though my car has full dealer history, and the mechanics at work all said they wouldnt have changed my discs just yet as they had more life in them

everything is just better, especially hard braking

so if yours are due, dont dismiss an OE setup if money is tight, it may turn out better than you think !.......though i cant comment on parts from a factors etc, the genuine stuff is spot on IMO

What mods do you have on your car? Have you done the suspension springs yet?

Only I found the "downhill" position the car adopted whilst braking on standard springs left me thinking I was stopping faster.

With the Eibachs, I find the standard brakes OK for normal use. On the odd occasion I've tried to pick my braking point and hammer them a bit, they've gone slightly less reassuring after 3-5 slow downs or stops.

J.

[wja96]

I think the 312mm brakes offer a good compromise. They are significantly bigger than standard and yet they are OEM so you can get the parts at any Skoda dealer. For roughly £400 fitted, the last few sets from VAGbitz look like decent value (they are off new Audi TT's). Basically, the 312mm units are easily good enough to stop a charging TT, so a Fabia shouldn't give them too much trouble.

[NFox]

I have standard brakes and haven't tried the 312s but I can say the 288s are awful imo..

[Ian M]

Which dealer was that?!

I priced up a set of OE discs and pads recently at TPS. Can't find the note right now, but I'm sure front discs were £40 each and pads about £40 set. Rear discs were about £30 each, pads £40-odd? Think those were inc. vat prices (but could be vat on top)? :eek:

[vrsia]

I've not driven a vRS with 312mm brakes but I do find the standard by no means dangerous. What I would like to know though before putting 312mm brakes on a car is some facts. What is a good operating temperature for the standard brakes and what temperatures do they produce? The same for the 312mm brakes. Is there any increase in braking effort on a brake roller tester? Does the master cylinder for the 312mm brakes have a different bore size and different reservoir capacity

[BRUN]

Which dealer was that?!

I priced up a set of OE discs and pads recently at TPS. Can't find the note right now, but I'm sure front discs were £40 each and pads about £40 set. Rear discs were about £30 each, pads £40-odd? Think those were inc. vat prices (but could be vat on top)? :eek:

looks like you didnt get any discount on those, as mine cost me less including paying for fitting

[BRUN]

What mods do you have on your car? Have you done the suspension springs yet?

Only I found the "downhill" position the car adopted whilst braking on standard springs left me thinking I was stopping faster.

With the Eibachs, I find the standard brakes OK for normal use. On the odd occasion I've tried to pick my braking point and hammer them a bit, they've gone slightly less reassuring after 3-5 slow downs or stops.

J.

nothing yet, though i do plan to do springs at some point, i do know what you mean, but it doesnt seem as bad with the new stuff on, or i havent noticed it as much as i did before

[wja96]

Which dealer was that?!

I priced up a set of OE discs and pads recently at TPS. Can't find the note right now, but I'm sure front discs were £40 each and pads about £40 set. Rear discs were about £30 each, pads £40-odd? Think those were inc. vat prices (but could be vat on top)? :eek:

I had a very interesting chat with GnatG while we having our cars serviced at Unit 18 on Sunday and he was quite scary about OE and supposedly OE parts. If I recall corectly he said there were several different grades of OE pads;

JS - what is fitted at the original manufacturing plant

J - a decent aftermarket part, but not as fitted by the manufacturer

D - have the durability of butter and stop you about the same as spreading butter on the discs.

Those relate to Mercedes, but I have no reason to believe that OE VAG stuff is any different. And let's be honest, when it comes to brakes and tyres, why would you want to save money anyway?

[wja96]

I've not driven a vRS with 312mm brakes but I do find the standard by no means dangerous.[/Quote]

I would agree with that.

What is a good operating temperature for the standard brakes and what temperatures do they produce? The same for the 312mm brakes.[/Quote]

The 312mm brakes are the standard items from a wide range of VAG cars, from the 'performance' Golfs, Octavias and Leons to the bog-standard Passat TDi. The brake compound is the same across the board and they don't need warming through like racing brake pads.

Is there any increase in braking effort on a brake roller tester?[/Quote]

I don't know, what is certainly true is they increase the cars ability to generate negative G as measured on an accelerometer.

Does the master cylinder for the 312mm brakes have a different bore size and different reservoir capacity

Not if they are retrofitted to a Fabia, and I don't think they do on the others either.

The 312mm brakes are basically what was fitted at the factory, just much bigger.

Edited 28 April, 2009 by wja96
Clarification on G

[big_dave]

My 312's gave 94% efficiency at the MOT station. They only need 50% to pass. The 312's have saved my *** on many occasions.

[Shadowphax]

I know some of you guys like to upgrade stuff on your cars, but I can't really believe that the standard brakes are that bad.

I should know as I used to work for Mintex, the brake pad manufacturer who are currently part of the TMD Friction group who make virtually all the pads for the VW family of cars.

If you guys could see the ammount of testing that cars have to go through to get OE parts certification for brakes you would certainly not think the brakes are bad.

Also, people always think that bigger brakes mean you will stop quicker. This is NOT true. What would happen if you stamped on the brakes at 70mph? You would lock the wheels. The tyres are always the limiting factor as to the ammount of braking force that can be applied.

Bigger brakes will give you more control/better feel and can take a lot more heat before they fade. Believe me though when I say you would have to be doing track speeds to fade modern car brakes. The manufacturers test cars fully loaded and towing caravans/trailers down Apline passes with the brakes on all the way down. It's not uncommon to see disk tempereatures as high as 1000°C and the brakes still don't fade. In my past I was lucky (unlucky?) enough to be in a Range Rover test car on an Alpine descent test and the brakes were on fire at the bottom. They still worked though.

There are very stringent tests that have to be passed on all cars in the EU and all modern cars have really good brakes. Get into a 20 year old car and you would see what I mean.

Edited 28 April, 2009 by Shadowphax

[faboka vrs]

Like I say the only problem I had with the standard setup was feel.

Edited 28 April, 2009 by faboka vrs

[yegnold]

I guess I have to admit the only reason I'm upgrading to 312mm brakes really is because it's something to do - I don't need them (apart from if I start doing track sessions more regularly) - but I do have very good tyres on the front of the car so hopefully any braking benefit will be felt rather than wasted

[wja96]

Also, people always think that bigger brakes mean you will stop quicker. This is NOT true. What would happen if you stamped on the brakes at 70mph? You would lock the wheels. The tyres are always the limiting factor as to the amount of braking force that can be applied.

Of course bigger brakes stop you quicker. The fastest way to stop? Lock all 4 wheels. The only advantage to not locking the wheels is you lose steering. Bigger brakes and ABS is a good thing. You get maximum braking for the available grip.

[yegnold]

Bigger brakes won't make you stop quicker if the existing brakes can already lock the wheels for you, I think was his point - because the tyres are the weak point, not the brakes' ability to transfer kinetic energy.

Obviously the bigger brakes will be able to do more 80mph -> 0 stops in a row than the smaller ones. Additionally, after an 80mph -> 0 stop the bigger brakes will have a lower temperature (as there is more material to be heated - and the same amount of kinetic energy has been transferred to heat) - remember that energy transferred = mass of object changing temperature x specific heat capacity of material x change in temperature.

Rearranging this, we get change in temperature = energy transferred / (mass of object changing temperature x specific heat capacity of material)

As the specific heat capacity of the material can be assumed to be constant (assuming we are going from OEM -> OEM), the value that changes is 'change in temperature'.

Let's feed some false figures in.

Imagine that you transfer 200000 watts of kinetic energy to heat. Assume that the specific heat capacity of the metal is 420JKg-1C-1, and that the weight of the brake disc (example remember!) is 2kg This gives

Change in temperature = 200000 / ( 2 x 420) = 238 degrees c

Now imagine you have a bigger (and hence heavier) brake disc. Let us imagine that this one weighs 2.2kg.

Change in temperature = 200000 / (2.2 x 420) = 216 degrees c

Did I bore everyone?

[vrsia]

Brakes no matter what they are will have an optimum braking temperature as said before the 312mm brakes will be better for track use as they have more area to absorb and disapate the heat but for everyday use I can't see the big fuss.

I would like (Under the right conditions) to see a brake test from 70 - 0 against distance of the two setups