hi

I have recently watched a video on youtube about

spark plugs and they claim you can have a much bigger spark allowing to use a higher air/fuel ratio (some 20:1 up to 40!:1 instead of normal 14.7:1) thus having a hefty MPG increase.

so my question is this: is anyone using this kind of plugs ?

because I am eager to know what fuel economy do you get. and how did you increase the air/fuel ratio ?

I drive a diesel, but I was interested.

Looking at http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Firestorm_Spark_Plug I've found some frankly nonsense claims. They're claiming to get more spark energy from a standard coil just by changing the plug design. Unless you flow more current, this just plain can't be done. They're also claiming to rev engines way over their red line just by changing the spark plugs. Try that with a Skoda 130 series pushrod engine, and you'll start bending the pushrods at 7_000rpm, assuming you don't get valve bounce or valve float before you even reach those revs.

Looking at http://peswiki.com/i...torm_Spark_Plug I've found some frankly nonsense claims. They're claiming to get more spark energy from a standard coil just by changing the plug design. Unless you flow more current, this just plain can't be done.

I quote from peswiki article: "How, you may ask, is all this achieved? In a word, plasma. The revolutionary design of FireStorm spark plugs creates an electric plasma that fills the entire combustion chamber like a firestorm."

So it is not about more energy, it is about the fourth state of matter. Let's think for a moment out of of the box...

They're also claiming to rev engines way over their red line just by changing the spark plugs. Try that with a Skoda 130 series pushrod engine, and you'll start bending the pushrods at 7_000rpm, assuming you don't get valve bounce or valve float before you even reach those revs.

I quote again from peswiki: "The other amazing thing I discovered while testing the FireStorm plug was that an engine can run further out in the rpm range. In other words, when they reach extremely high speeds the power curve starts falling off. Just by using FireStorm plugs, I can operate from 600 to 800 rpm faster past red-line with the power curve still heading up rather than down."

So. again, it is about the possibility of pulling more rpm and power out of an engine. Krupa tested Firestorm plugs on race cars (see same article), not on a Skoda 130.

And let's be honest, he didn't put a gun to your head to pass the red line...

Bottom line, by quoting out of context you are not doing truth a service...

And even more important: I asked about people who are USING those spark plugs, not about theoretical comments.

Must be very clever spark plugs if they can reprogram an ECU/re-jet a carb to adjust the fuelling!

Seems this guy has a lot to say about spark plugs without showing much understanding of engine design - I was under the impression that better combustion comes from getting the fuel and air more evenly mixed, and things like combustion chamber shape, valve configuration, manifold design and injector position mattered, rather than how big the point of ignition is.

Besides, what's really new here? The lean-burn engine has been around for years, and even my 11-year-old Felicia had long-life multi-electrode spark plugs from the factory. The rest sounds suspiciously like nonsense to me - especially when that old " big companies don't want to produce my revolutionary invention cause it'll end their profits" excuse is trotted out once again...

And even more important: I asked about people who are USING those spark plugs, not about theoretical comments.

Er, that would be nobody, then, given that they aren't in production and you can't buy them anywhere.

Also, correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the redline defined by mechanical constraints in the engine - or do the magic spark plugs also suddenly change the valve timing and make the inlet and exhaust ports bigger so the combustion chambers can be filled and emptied faster?

As for plasma, well, how does a normal spark plug work if it doesn't strip the electrons off the air in the gap to create a conductive path?

Valve timing and ports aren't what make the redline, FYI, it's mechanical strength of the parts, particularly conrods and rod bolts (but anything can be the limiting factor).

As for the spark plugs, same old snake oil. You can't run lean mixtures like that, the chemistry of combustion is the limiting factor. If simply changing a spark plug made such a difference, then a quantum leap would have occurred ages ago, and everyone would be using it. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

As for plasma, well, how does a normal spark plug work if it doesn't strip the electrons off the air in the gap to create a conductive path?

Not entirely sure how a plasma based sparkplug works yet - still reading into it - however i do remember this much:

In the lab when generating a high voltage spark, (just as in arc welding) the electrodes are heated/abraided by the action of transmitting the spark and depending upon the matierial used as electrodes, can be partially/completely melted or set alight.

If instead of a spark, the equipment is arranged so that plasma is generated, then the electrodes themselves are not heated or damaged in the process.

As for the larger ignition area/effect on combustion etc, here's my 2p worth...

Thanks to a misspent youth (High IQ and nothing to do) i'm resonably well aware of comparative detonation velocities of most flammable mediums.

One thing i have to note is that petrolleum based distillates are rather...slow to explode, comparatively speaking. (Note, Detonation velocity is distinct from calorie content! something can go bang real quick, but still produce next to no energy). This is one of the reasons why igintion usually occurs Before TDC in an engine, as if i recall correctly should it occur after TDC, then the fuel will still be being burnt on the upstroke, reducing engine efficiency greatly. Contrast this if you will, with water. Yes, water.

Water has a VERY high detonation velocity, when you finally get it to ignite, as i know from personal experience (when i tan, i can still see where the burns were on the back of my hands....but i digress.)

What i believe is happening with these "miracle" plugs, is that someone is putting 2 and 2 together and making 17. Having seen that water can be detonated rather violently by plasma (essentially, stripping it back to it's H & O2 components, which then explosively recombine), someone has thought; "cool! lets try that with petrol!" assuming that they will get the same result in a petrol engine.

This is not necessarily the case, and personally i believe a better way to achieve more efficient combustion would be to revisit water/fuel emusion systems that were most recently publicised by Jean Chambrin and Paul Pantone.

http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/25156/car-water-hybrid-BMW-Pantone.html

I'm still amazed that whilst fully functioning water/methanol fueling systems were developed and used during the late 30's/early 40's for piston engined aircraft, it wasn't developed any further following the war and dissapeared completely once jet engines came on the scene.

Dan.

Must be very clever spark plugs if they can reprogram an ECU/re-jet a carb to adjust the fuelling!

I don't recall reading or hearing about such funny implication. But hey... grapes are sour...

At least, at my carburettor Felicia, getting a 24:1 air/fuel ratio is nothing more than adjusting a screw (cutting fuel), since I don't have any turbo to push more air...

I don't recall reading or hearing about such funny implication. But hey... grapes are sour...

At least, at my carburettor Felicia, getting a 24:1 air/fuel ratio is nothing more than adjusting a screw (cutting fuel), since I don't have any turbo to push more air...

Apologies - I only had a quick look earlier and the implication at a glance was that the new plugs made the difference. Having now read through in detail I see it's even less impressive - the only vaguely substantiated claim I can see is 33bhp from a big-block Chevy engine, with a whole new ignition system and a bit of engine tuning to "optimise" it. Hmmm, so that's a 5-10% power gain on a 1960's technology engine by tuning it and fitting a modern ignition system, sounds reminiscent of what folks have achieved with an old Estelle and some Felicia/Fabia bits - hardly a convincing argument for this new idea.

We didn't get the carbureted Felicia over here - does it have screw-adjustable main jets? Or are you talking about the idle mix screw which only affects the low rev range?

As I understand it, running a 40:1 ratio might make the engine more responsive (not to mention hotter) at the low end but at full throttle it just means half the air you're shifting in and out of the cylinders is nothing but a waste of space. I fail to see how that gives more power overall.

Sorry if I come across a bit blunt, but as a scientist it ****es me off to see yet another charlatan making ridiculous claims about something without any convincing evidence to back it up, and if innocent folks like yourself get tricked into thinking this is real scientific or engineering research then it devalues the efforts of millions of highly skilled people that do actually make things better for all of us. I'd rather not start a big argument but suffice to say, there's enough quotes from the man himself in that interview Ken linked to to make me question whether he knows much about engines, physics or chemistry at all.

Valve timing and ports aren't what make the redline, FYI, it's mechanical strength of the parts, particularly conrods and rod bolts (but anything can be the limiting factor).

Indeed. Got a bit ahead of myself there and stepped over the obvious Still, the theoretical limit was important enough for Wankel, so it'll do for me

edit: Censoring his name seems a bit unfair to our German engineer - please forgive me for bypassing the swear filter on this one :S

Edited 18 August, 201015 yr by RobinSLXi

I am a bit amazed how discussions got centered only on Firestorm=higher power ??? when these spark plugs got my attention mainly for higher MPG...

I am a bit amazed how discussions got centered only on Firestorm=higher power ??? when these spark plugs got my attention mainly for higher MPG...

It's the same thing in this case since the idea is an increase in efficiency: making more power from the same fuel = using less fuel to make the same power = higher MPG.

Anyway, thanks for bringing the whole thing up - I've had a very amusing evening reading all about it in detail

Oh, and in case you come across the more common scam, wrapping a magnet around your fuel lines will do absolutely nothing either

This is one of the reasons why igintion usually occurs Before TDC in an engine, as if i recall correctly should it occur after TDC, then the fuel will still be being burnt on the upstroke, reducing engine efficiency greatly.

a lot of it is to do with the knock resistance of the fuel being used as well, on some fuels the ignition point is often at TDC or even slightly after particularly on turbocharged cars where there is lots of heat in the combustion chamber,

also in regards to detonation velocity the other thing you are not taking into consideration is that the fuel/air mixture behaves differently when it's under pressure than it does in the open so to speak, pressurizing the fuel spreads it into a homogeneous mixture which will combust a lot faster...

anyway, aside from that there is some truely amazing stuff in this thread... where can i get me some plasma plugs??? i'm sure they would help the durability of my flux capacitor

Nah I already got me some magnets on my fuel line that give me an extra 5mpg

An interesting read perhaps? http://www.brisk.biz/upload/fckedit/file/download/Technical_manual_EN_96DPI.pdf

And these ones might actually be worth a try http://www.jorily.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=131_58&products_id=170

Edited 19 August, 201015 yr by anewman

I doubt the 5bhp claim. Unless it's compared to a knackered old set.

For me, NGK is the only way.

 

Anyway, thanks for bringing the whole thing up - I've had a very amusing evening reading all about it in detail

Oh, and in case you come across the more common scam, wrapping a magnet around your fuel lines will do absolutely nothing either

so I see you are the sarcastic expert of the forum. you know all before being tested and nothing works, joker...

how about sharing some of YOUR accomplishments in the RESEARCH area ? help us, poor ignorant ones, save the planet, plant a flower or get a life.

 

so I see you are the sarcastic expert of the forum. you know all before being tested and nothing works, joker...

how about sharing some of YOUR accomplishments in the RESEARCH area ? help us, poor ignorant ones, save the planet, plant a flower or get a life.

Pardon me, but I don't think personal insults add much to the discussion. I don't claim to be an expert, but like everyone else who has contributed to this thread, I know enough about the technology involved to see when it's being misused to mislead people. Forgetting the 'science', it doesn't take much to see that here is someone making outrageous claims for a product with no basis other than his own, hardly unbiased, testing (and with no evidence provided to substantiate this). If that isn't enough to raise a little scepticism, we find he was also involved in marketing a previous 'revolutionary' spark plug and charged by the FTC on grounds of false advertising for making similar claims without any evidence. I think most people would be doubtful in this case. All I know is if I had a truly great idea that was production-ready and had patents in place to protect it, I'd be publicising it hugely and letting other people test it themselves to show how good it is.

As for 'fuel saver' magnets, let's ignore the fact that petrol isn't magnetic and just look at the thousands of reports out there from people saying "I bought this, and it did nothing." I believe that counts as testing. Sorry if bringing them up somehow offended you, I just guessed since you were looking for ways to improve MPG you'd come across them sooner or later.

As for my own work, well I'm still near the beginning of this particular career, but the first paper to which I am officially a contributor is in the review stage at the moment, so feel free to read it in a few months when it's published if you have any interest in the mechanisms of oxygen sensing behaviour in C. Elegans. I designed the automated behavioural analysis system and tools to process the data.

As for 'fuel saver' magnets, let's ignore the fact that petrol isn't magnetic and just look at the thousands of reports out there from people saying "I bought this, and it did nothing." I believe that counts as testing. Sorry if bringing them up somehow offended you, I just guessed since you were looking for ways to improve MPG you'd come across them sooner or later.

Actually, all substances can be affected by a magnetic field to a greater or lesser degree, whether or not they are themselves magnetic. As both petrol and diesel can conduct electricity, the underlying principle of the magnetic fuel saver in as far that a magnetic force can somehow have an effect on fuel, is in a sense basically sound. Which is all well and good, at least in the lab, but there are several problems:

1/ Magnetohydrodynamic manipulation (a posh phrase which basically means manipulating electrically conductive liquids/gasses/etc with magnetic fields) is massively inefficient, and requires specialist high energy electromagnets, rather than the conventional kind found in a GCSE physics classroom, to be effective. Whilst I really can't be bothered posting exactly why this is (Far too long to type up), if you search for information on the Magdrive powered boat (Yamato 1) that mitsubishi built as a testbed in the '90s, you should get a full answer. (Warning - most of the pages are by companies associated with the project, and are in japanese!) Additionally, it requires constantly variable strength & field alignment to operate - not the fixed strength/alignment of your average fixed magnetic core.

2/ Whilst an effect could theoretically be achieved, (at great fiscal and technical expense), it could in no way shape or form produce the effect described for magnetic fuel savers. What the end result would in fact be is a fuel pump with no moving parts; just a pipe that sucks in one end and spits out the other....Based on current experince/technology, this would consume twice the total energy output of your engine, simply in order to function.

Ok, time to shut my pie-hole before I start to sound too crazy. :wonder:

I'll go take my pills now

 

As for 'fuel saver' magnets, let's ignore the fact that petrol isn't magnetic... Sorry if bringing them up somehow offended you, I just guessed since you were looking for ways to improve MPG you'd come across them sooner or later.

don't guess and don't assume anything about people, otherwise you'll get a rough treatment.

you know... intelligence and high IQ isn't located in your town only, it's just the rest of us don't brag and don't get smug about it, although we have high diplomas too for years...

back to topic: many inventions and inventors were heavily criticized at their time just because people were too conservatory, too lazy or too dumb to understand there can be a new physics involved. so I suggest we cut the **** and wait for practical results.

This could be the reason why the plugs have never been made.

Clicky

Don't know if it is the same bloke but it is near where he seems to live.

Edited 19 August, 201015 yr by trundlenut

I guess all my comments and test data from the time I spent with Krupa in Utah got throw out or edited out. Krupa is still living out of his car or living in people's RV's. Currently he is down near Bullhead city working with the doctor who is working on the Air turbine.

6 months of building and testing Firestorm, and over 200k American dollars, the results were null and void. There was no gain in horsepower, nor was there any mileage gain, nor did Krupa ever show any documentation form Lotus engineering and their tests of running an engine at over 24:1 on the Firestorm plugs. Our investor finally gave up on the project.

Bob is now looking for new investment into the plug but still has not show any test data nor anyone who could confirm the test results he still claims are valid.

Tad

From here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5974-firestorm-inventor-bob-krupa-live-interview.html

Posted by "uncle fester" on 7/8/10

Hi Glen,

Yeah, I was very disappointed. I wanted this to work so badly that I dreamt about it every night and what it could do for the world. I was called in by the investor to build the circuitry for testing the plugs in a pressurized nitrogen chamber. We had 50k frames per second cameras set up to view what was happening inside a combustion chamber with the Firestorm plugs. I built many different driver setups because Bob always said I was not building them right for the tests, although he had no electronics experience to show what he wanted me to build. So I built variable 1-500 Hz pulse generator capable of driving ignition coils up to 450 volts. I also added a capacitor discharge diode string to dump large amounts of current (up to 120 joules). I also built a multiple spark discharge system capable of up to 10 joules per discharge.

We were getting massive plasma balls built up inside the plug cage/ball, but there was nothing special about the plugs in general. Even though Beryllium copper is a fairly tough alloy (toxic too though), it could not handle repeated discharges in the 5 to 10 joule range without sublimating the material, therefore the plugs would have short lives under these conditions. The claim that the plugs would never wear out is entirely false.

The other problem I had was that the cage design was actually hindering the formation for larger amounts of plasma because the plasma ball would reach outside the cage only slightly and never extend further. I was in the lab one night after everyone went home and I took a very inexpensive champion plug and took the resistor out, made a stud to slip into the ceramic body, and cut the J-electrode off. I found this plug performed far better than the Firestorm. It would develop large amounts of plasma (almost twice what the Firestorm was capable of) because it had nothing on the end of the plug to hinder large formations of plasma. I was tried and left the lab but forgot to pull the Champion plug from the chamber. The next day the investor and Bob came in and fired up the test I still had set up from the night before. When I came in shortly after they were running the tests, the investor looked at me and said "Why are we working on the Firestorm? This modified Champion plug works much better!". I of course had no answer for him and was embarrassed that I had left the setup intact from the previous night.

After that it was all downhill. Bob was trying to hold onto this investor money in any way he could even though the Firestorm's performance was mediocre at best. I kept telling Bob that whatever the results were we needed to not embellish the results just to keep the investor on the hook. This investor was a super nice man who put us up in a brand new condo in Provo, Utah. Gave us spending money somewhere in the $3500 per month each, and took care of all other expenses. I was ashamed that Bob would string this guy out by continually promising him miraculous results that we could not show. Bob never showed us any data from Lotus engineering, which was very fishy. Normally you get printouts of not only air/fuel ratio's but also horsepower and emissions data. This is STANDARD for any high end dynomometer running in a well known laboratory. Nor could Bob give us any contact that could confirm the test data he had apparently accumulated over many apparent test runs of the plugs in vehicles.

We finally got access to Utah Valley University and their awesome equipment to run tests in an actual car. We put the highest end ignition drivers from MSD that we could get (they cost us somewhere in the 500 dollar range). They were 5 joule output per unit and we had two units. This should have been more than enough energy to make the plugs work to optimum. We ran a modified computer in Bob's T-bird that would allow us to vary the air fuel ratio all the way up to 60:1. The car ran good at normal air/fuel ratios, but when we ran it on the dyno and started to lean it out it would misfire and the hydrocarbon emissions would go through the roof showing we were not burning the fuel once it became leaner than 20:1. We ran test after test showing the same thing. bob blamed it on how the plugs were machined (they were flawlessly machined on really nice CNC equipment, highly polished finished etc. Then he would blame it on the electronics from MSD, not enough power, even though we already knew that the plugs fired fine on 5 joules or even less (down to 1.5 joules was fine for plasma formation).

Horsepower was the same across all tests, with normal plugs and stock ignition we got 125 horsepower out of the stock V-8. With MSD ignition we got 125 horsepower. And with Firestorm and MSD ignition we got 125 horsepower. Emissions improved about ten percent with the MSD ignition regardless of what plugs we used. Idle was much smoother with the aftermarket ignitions regardless of the plugs used.

We put the plugs into the investors Toyota Tundra V-8 and the computer was constantly giving us error codes for Ignition malfunction. This is because the plugs have no resistor to help with transients. We found that if these plugs were used in normal vehicles with computers they would need to modify the computer system with better transient protection or the computer would malfunction or fail due the the stray transients the plugs and ignition would create. Also on coil over plug systems it would require a re-design of the coil system so that topping capacitors or diode strings could be used for form plasma. These would require working directly with automotive manufacturers and would require millions of dollars to change the ignition systems and would require many hundred of hours to re-engineer the systems. This would be difficult to convince the auto manufacturers to do, and also would be difficult to get them to pay to do it on top of giving Bob a royalty form the sales of the system.

So all in all it's a pipe dream that has no basis in fact. As sad as it sounds I still think Bob is a decent guy, he just throws wild claims out without thinking of the consequences or how much money might be wasted chasing something that was never proven even on paper before starting tests. All this data on our tests I still have along with footage of the Dyno tests etc. I still have the circuitry we used to test these plugs, it has all been sitting in boxes.

I'm sorry the results did not back up the claims, and there is another angel investor who will probably never invest in "alternative energy". But those are the facts and truths we found while working on this system.

Tad

more info from elsewhere, just in case someone is interested:

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/howtomakeplasmaplugs.pdf

http://hho4free.com/sparkplugs.htm

Edited 19 August, 201015 yr by Ravenskull

i've heard that fitting a 710 to your engine can improve the fuel efficiency too

[superb internet detective work]

Nice to find out how it ended up, thanks for searching that out and posting. I get the impression you'd be an interesting chap to talk science with down the pub!

And sorry for more OT, but I do take issue with unjustified personal attacks.

masster: you sarcastically asked me to share my research accomplishments. I did. That is not bragging. Also, you too have clearly made plenty of assumptions about me, mostly inaccurate, but I think we both have better things to do than have fights on the internet like teenagers, so I'm leaving it there.

This could be the reason why the plugs have never been made.

Clicky

Don't know if it is the same bloke but it is near where he seems to live.

you don't. just by reading the 19 comments to that article. do you think media wouldn't have stump on his head as Krupa CEO ?

@Ravenskull

and who is "uncle fester" ? the father of all truth ? has he any proof for what he blabs ? oh, sweet naivety...

because judging by his 57 posts, it looks like he worked with all major inventors, from Tesla to Bedini...

christ almighty, can you 2 stop arguing over a set of spark plugs, they don't work, it's all a load of rubbish.. skoda would have fitted them at the factory if they thought it would lead to the magical elixir or 200mpg or whatever outrageous claim it is they are making

Masster, this type of invention has been around for a great many years, and none of them has ever been proven to improve mpg or performance. Therefore people are understandably cynical about them. I would suggest if you feel they can help you, that you buy some (when they are available), test them, and report back to the forum in a scientific way your findings. Speculation like this is bound to have two sides, the believers and the unbelievers. But because there is no proof, speculation is all it is.

All, please discuss in an impartial manner with no personal content, or the thread will be closed. Thanks.