Hi all,

I'm at university atm, doing a course in 'network computing' and Cisco's CCNA. I went on the course (now year 2) understanding/expecting a fair amount of networking stuff with a small amount of computer theory.

In the first year, I did 8 modules - 2 were networking and 3 were programming(Java and basic C). (Others were maths, systems design and an introduction to computers - binary, hardware etc).

This term I've got 5 modules, ONE of which is networking (switching/CCNA3), two others are related to my placement year, and something I did purely cos I liked the sound of it. The final two are looking at source code of operating systems (MINIX), and making dynamic process scheudling and memory management, and a security module which looks at the algorithms in RSA etc, and finding weaknesses in programs source code, and then fixing them for coursework.

Does any of this sound nessesary to those of you who work as network admin/support? I appricate stuff like batch files etc would be useful (not covered those yet though!) and automation of OS rollouts etc (think those'll be in final year modules), but altering core OS features and methods - to me I'll never use that again. Really gets me I'm paying £3k+ for something which is nothing like we were lead to believe/expecting (trade descriptions act? ). All the networking teachers I've had have said they've had no need for it, esp. Java and the head of the networks started talking to us and when we explained what we were doing with the security issues, he said he'd have no idea where to start/what to do. For me, that pretty much summed up the pointless-ness of the module combined with statements from CISCO saying programming isn't needed for CCNA.

I'm all for learning, but just wish it was more relevant. If I'd wanted to do programming I'd have choosen a software design course.

Sorry for the rant, but this has been bugging me for ages. Wishing I'd just gone to a colleage or something to do CCNA now.

Thanks,

Joe.

Edited 4 November, 201015 yr by TriggerFish

The simple fact is that there's not a single course that prepares you for life as a sysadmin. That's not to say that some of the the certification courses out there don't have useful content, but there isn't a piece of paperwork anywhere that qualifies you as a network manager. You'll be called on to do all sorts of stuff and that'll vary between posts, so the broader your knowledge the better.

In this case, if I took a course called 'network computing' I'd assume that it was designed to cover all aspects of computing over a network, and part of that could well be coding with relation to network apps - there's no better way to understand a complex system than to try to make it work for you from first principles.

I do network admin, but its more of a secondary role as once a network is setup it requires very little to keep it ticking along.

My other time is taken up by maintaining SQL/Oracle databases, servers, desktops, and practically anything else that is connected with IT and in this day and age even includes telephones.

So although you dont really need to know programming it all helps towards understanding the IT industry, so when an issue arises you can understand whether its a programming or other issue on the network.

If you're a sysadmin you'll be expected to fix things when they break.

You users will not understand the difference between an admin and a programmer you are the 'computer guy' it's your job to fix it.

You may need to program, write a script, write a batch file, change viral/IDS signatures. Having a bit of knowledge of programming won't be a bad thing.

Java might not be that much use though, everyone comes out of uni having done java and Indian java programmers will be cheaper than you. C++, SQL, even VBA would be more practical.

Just make sure your options will make you flexible and useful to an employer.

Make the most of it, sounds like a fantastic grounding for a career in IT.

System/Network administration is almost infinitely broad in remit. Most of the intermediate to advanced stuff you perceive as being directly relevant you will learn on the job through experience. However once you are in work there maybe little opportunity to gain any experience in the stuff that is being taught to you now and this is exactly the sort of stuff that seperates average to good Sys Admins from great Sys Admins.

"patience my young padawan"

Best regards

David

Edited 5 November, 201015 yr by cookdn

Stick at it. Carefull with the parlence as well though. A sysadmin is different to a netadmin. Namely one looks after systems in general and one looks after just network equipment. Sounds like the course is preparing you for a sysadmin role.

However what you're learning is very important. There is a massive number of (affraid I have to say this) noddy level admins in the market place who can just about do the odd batch script etc. If you really want progress and work in a top level tech company, you really need to know your stuff.

I'm a senior engineer for a tech company. I and my team look after a couple of managed services for big blue chip clients (think big broadcasters both here and abroad). With out the grounding I got doing a similar course with the Open University... it would have been harder to gain the experience I need for my role in the same amount of time just working my way through as a boggo sysadmin.

The kinda stuff we're doing is easily Tech. Arch. level 50% of the time, so you need that background knowledge

All sounds like fairly relevant stuff. The majority of the things you will do in a sysadmin role will be unique to that post so you will find yourself calling on previous experience and filling it the gaps in your knowledge as you go.

I think you will find that a lot of people who work in IT wont use anything they were taught on a degree course in their day to day roles. I studied Automotive Engineering and i now work in IT and everything i know is pretty much self taught as i need it.

Mannyo, your network obviously isn't big enough lol. I think we have about 15 guys who just look after the network but then it is rather large and a constant source of headache.

Why conciously limit what you learn? The more you know the more you'll be employable because you'll be able to do a better job...you'll be able to see the bigger picture rather than just looking at a switch and saying "well that's working so I don't know what the problem is".

Fair enough your networking teachers may not have had any use for the stuff you're learning, but that's probably why they're networking teachers. Likewise a head of networks at a university may have no need to know about security, but if you work in a commercial environment you will (particularly if you're in charge of a network!).

Oh, and once you get onto writing batch files you'll realise just how useful knowing a programming language is.

Hmm, interesting points made there, thanks.

As I said, it's not learning extra stuff I'm agaisnt, it's just spending time on areas of study I percieved to be irrelavant I'm not too keen on. I guess I was just being a little single minded towards the sort of stuff I'd be expecting/need to do in the future as I invisiged it being mainly one set of people doing networking/user accounts etc, and another doing other areas like database management, software support and so on.

A few of you raised the point about the difference in systems/network admins - that's something I'd never really thought about, more just assumed they'd be seperate. (Thinking back to my GCSE work experience in council, so a large organisation, they seemed to be shared I think.)

I voted "A Little".

Reason being is that 'network admin' can mean many things to many people.

I agree that if you are just operating on network infrastructure components itself then you dont really need C, Java or any of the other stuff. You do need to be able to cut a script though.

But imagine you are looking at the network from a different angle - maybe form a monitoring point of view - gathering data via SNMP / netflow / sflow or whatever - then you need to understand networks and also a means to gather and manipulate that data to make it useful.

Equally - if you have a network problem it usually involves a system/server/device - these devices are not network elements, but packet producers/eaters. It really does help to be able to find your way around and understand what it might be doing programatically.

All that said - it is a Uni Course - it is built up of modules specific to your course and specific to other courses - maybe you are expecting too much. Add to that - you might find that you dont want to be a network monkey forever and want to branch out into a parallel field.

But I would say almost everything you describe above can be covered by the term 'Network Computing;.

My advice - do a Marketing module and get some totty time.

Edited 9 November, 201015 yr by foo

There is no tightly defined "sys admin" role.

In a large company you may be part of a big team and do little more each day than set up hardware.

In a small company like mine the sys admin is a department of 1. He looks after day-to-day running of the network, installs new kit, updates software, is the help desk, orders consumables and (to get to the core of your question) he tweaks programs in our MIS and writes new ones.

Oh! And he is off sick today and I am his stand-in to look after the stuff that can't wait until tomorrow.

There is no tightly defined "sys admin" role.

In a large company you may be part of a big team and do little more each day than set up hardware.

In a small company like mine the sys admin is a department of 1. He looks after day-to-day running of the network, installs new kit, updates software, is the help desk, orders consumables and (to get to the core of your question) he tweaks programs in our MIS and writes new ones.

Oh! And he is off sick today and I am his stand-in to look after the stuff that can't wait until tomorrow.

Ahh this describes one half of my job exactly

My advice - do a Marketing module and get some totty time.

In all seriousness, this is probably the best advice on the whole thread.

Thanks too those who replied. I think foos' point makes it a fair bit clearer as to why we're covering it - the whole point about servers etc which run software themselves - something I never thought of - just assumed they'd be OK once they were configured.

In all seriousness, this is probably the best advice on the whole thread.

Heh, was thinking this also. Not least as I found business/ecomonics etc a lot easier than computing anyway. It's just not something I can see myself doing without getting bored easily. My A-Level was enough to discourage me studying it further.

:blushes:

As part of my job I am responsible for networks in and across a bunch of huuuuge server / software test labs.

I get reports of 'network problems' frequently. I would estimate at most 15% of 'network problems' are actually a network problem. All the rest are server or app misconfiguration or just plain and simple pilot error. The network bears the brunt of blame because it is often the 'common element' which they have just enough understanding of to draw dangerously misguided conclusions about.

You will need to fight your corner and challenge these accusations if appropriate.

All that said - out on t'internet, network administration is a much more pure beast. A crazy world of wire protocols, encapsulation, BGP, AS and peering agreements. Not too many producers/eaters and not something I profess to understand in much detail. But languages might be less useful here except of course you need to get all the health data back to the NOC and presented in a meaningful way.

Not least as I found business/ecomonics etc a lot easier than computing anyway.

If your long term goal from gaining the qualification is to earn money (ie. you're not just doing it because you really like networks), some diversity into business-related modules could be useful. People who can apply technical knowledge to a business situation usually earn more than those who sit in basements amongst the blinking lights...

I'd cover everything possible, because, as the others say, modern IT just doesn't work in little boxes. My main job is setting up and managing large backup solutions for big companies. As part of that I have to have understanding of operating systems, networks, databases, Storage Area Networks, disk storage systems, scripting, etc etc.

Even if you never use the stuff as such, it will give you a background knowledge that will stand you in good stead in the future. As an example, I used to be a hardware engineer, and part of my job over 20 years ago was fixing a computer called a DEC VAX 11/750 (older IT folk might know it ) They've been obsolete for years now, but while working with them I learned so much about the principles of memory management, networking and clustering that I still go back to today.

Phil