Undertaking

• It's dangerous, the driver being undertaken wont expect it and may pull into the undertaker without looking.
  
• It's illegal.
  
• It's at least a bit anti-social.
  

I do it fairly frequently it saves me ~7 mins on a ~45 minute journey, i thought it was saving me a lot more but i measured it, roughly a minute saved by each car / block of cars undertaken.

Sometimes i do the alternative -- drive until i reach traffic, move out, overtake, move back in. Repeat for a few miles until I reach traffic in one of the overtaking lanes. There's no point forming a queue in an overtaking lane so i move back in to the driving lane, i don't undertake, i just wait for the overtaking lanes to progress forward. I'll then move out to overtake when it's clear, then move in when i catch up with the hog(s) again.

With this approach you can never pass the hogs. This makes the journey around 60mins.

There's an obvious answer to avoid this: just set off earlier.

No real reason for posting this, but i like to hear other points of view (good or bad -- although lets keep it respectful )

I believe it states in the Highway code that if your lane is Blocked/obstructed you may use another lane

Therefor if lane 3 is blocked by slow moving traffic you may use lane 1 or 2 So you can undertake

i drive in whatever lane gets me there, i get sick of people sitting at 50mph in the middle lane for miles on end, so i just go round them on the inside.. if they flash thier lights or wave thier fist they get flipped a bird

i drive in whatever lane gets me there, i get sick of people sitting at 50mph in the middle lane for miles on end, so i just go round them on the inside.. if they flash thier lights or wave thier fist they get flipped a bird

+1.. and also people that move into the fast lane to overtake at 2mph then don't bother moving back in for another 5 minutes even if the lane is empty.

If someone is clearly hogging the outside lane, I flash my lights, give them some time to move over, if not then I undertake.

It's not illegal, though it could be considered a due care and attention.

Personally, I do it, with appropriate caution. If it's possible to undertake, then either it's traffic, which the HC allows for, or they were in the wrong lane.

Undertaking isn't dangerous per se, but you have to be aware of the risks, much like any other manouevre in driving, so making sure you have an escape route should something unexpected happen is essential. There's also no law against undertaking so the act of passing someone on the left isn't illegal in itself either. Imho, it's no more anti-social than being sat unnecessarily in an overtaking lane holding up faster traffic.

Interestingly, on the police courses, students are taught never to undertake and to wait for the vehicle ahead to yield although having blues 'n' twos certainly helps encourage people to yield.

YMMV as they say, but good forward observation and planning help and provided you're not weaving in and out of the traffic or sailing passed traffic in the left hand lane at a rate of knots, I suspect that the majority of traffic in the overtaking lane will allow you to blend in as and when you need to, rather than being upset and becoming defensive.

Chris

Other than the point about emergency response courses (which I didn't know, and incidentally I suspect blues and twos only work on people who're actually paying attention ) I agree with Chris to several places of decimals.

I never realised it wasn't illegal. The entries in the highway code that are backed by law are labelled MUST or MUST NOT. The entry on undertaking isn't marked with either.

You could be done for due care & attention if you make a dangerous maneuvre. If you make many dangerous maneuveres over a period of time you could be done for dangerous driving.

In the cases where you can see well enough to consider an undertake, you can pretty quickly judge if it's going to be safe to do complete or not, i reckon i can guess the type of driver too. If there's someone right up their chuff, odds on they'll be on the loud pedal when they notice you. Thankfully they don't often look past their wipers so you can make it swift and be on your way before they notice you.

I never realised it wasn't illegal. The entries in the highway code that are backed by law are labelled MUST or MUST NOT. The entry on undertaking isn't marked with either.

But the Highway Code is not law, the clue is in its title Equally, there isn't a law saying we should drive on the left, but if you decided one day you prefer driving on the right you would get pulled up by the police pretty quickly. However, you would not be charge with driving on the right hand side.

Undertaking. Providing your not weaving between lanes, and its safe to do so, then I see no problem.

Double post :(

Edited 12 November, 201015 yr by *tim*

Double post :(

Haha :-) I got 4 emails for that one Some other users seem to have an issue where they post once with a full quote of the previous person then post a 2nd time with their reply. At first i thought it was just someone being silly but it happens to a few folks, Weird!

Both undertaking and failing to move over from an overtaking lane have been prosecuted as due care.

I wasn't taught never to pass to the nearside on my police response course, what I was taught was not to weave but to try to get the traffic all to move in the same direction which generally is the kerb side for their own safety so they don't pull over the centre line and hit oncoming vehicles.

But at junctions or where there are bus lanes it is always the lane of least resistance.

I never realised it wasn't illegal. The entries in the highway code that are backed by law are labelled MUST or MUST NOT. The entry on undertaking isn't marked with either.

Me neither, you learn something new every day! I always used to have a negative view of people who undertake, but this has certainly made me rethink. It will probably change the way I drive myself as well.

Thanks for starting this thread!

I wasn't taught never to pass to the nearside on my police response course, what I was taught was not to weave but to try to get the traffic all to move in the same direction which generally is the kerb side for their own safety so they don't pull over the centre line and hit oncoming vehicles.

Maybe it varies by driving school - it's certainly not taught at Hendon

Chris

Both undertaking and failing to move over from an overtaking lane have been prosecuted as due care.

I wasn't taught never to pass to the nearside on my police response course, what I was taught was not to weave but to try to get the traffic all to move in the same direction which generally is the kerb side for their own safety so they don't pull over the centre line and hit oncoming vehicles.

But at junctions or where there are bus lanes it is always the lane of least resistance.

Ditto on the front line Ambulance course I took.

Both undertaking and failing to move over from an overtaking lane have been prosecuted as due care.

I wasn't taught never to pass to the nearside on my police response course, what I was taught was not to weave but to try to get the traffic all to move in the same direction which generally is the kerb side for their own safety so they don't pull over the centre line and hit oncoming vehicles.

But at junctions or where there are bus lanes it is always the lane of least resistance.

Thanks for a very useful post.

Most of the cases I've seen where "undertaking" was prosecuted were cases where the undertaker ran into his braking distance to a vehicle (a) in front in Lane N to pass someone <b> in Lane N+1, then pulled out into <b>'s braking distance to pass (a).

Edited 15 November, 201015 yr by KenONeill

I have followed this discussion with interest, but in truth have been a little worried by some of the opinions.

It is true that the Highway Code does not preface the sections on undertaking with the words 'must not' which would indicate that such a manoever is illegal under the Road Traffic Acts. However even where the Code does not do this, then the Code gives best practice advice and failure to comply with the Code will count in evidence against you if you ignore the Code, and are involved in an incident. Such incidents at normal motorway speeds can be very dangerous.

In my recollection the Code says:

"163. Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should ...... only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so......Stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left."

Overtaking is also referred to in the motorway section where it says:

"267. Do not overtake until you are sure it is safe to do so. Overtake only on the right.

268. Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, when adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in the left hand lane may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out lanes to overtake."

Now I know that my copy of the highway code is a year or two old, but I don't think the relevant bits have changed in that time. As far as I can see the above quotes specificly preclude undertaking as good practice in driving. It also means that, if you cause an accident by doing it you will be liable. Whilst I accept that the person hogging the outside lane is causing an obstruction, I do not believe that would be a defence against your causing an accident by undertaking and would be little consolation if it led to serious injury.

I also believe that had I undertaken when taking the RosPA drivers test, I would not have passed.

That was a good post.

I'd go even further than your point that undertaking followed by a collision would count against the undertaker, and say that's surely the only fair way to apportion blame?

Any reasonable driver considering an under- (or over-) take would consider themselves at fault for a collision occurring before rejoining the flow of traffic, even if in the extreme case of an overtakee accelerating to block the maneuvre, it must be the overtaker's responsibility to ensure safety.

For responsible driving, it's probably fair to say that no maneuevre on the road should be treated as an absolute, or a right. I.e. because the green light is on, doesn't automatically mean you're free to proceed, but you can if it's clear.

You make a good point about the guidance offered by the highway code for good practice, and i relate that to my point that undertaking is at least a bit anti social.

For me your strongest point is the view RoSPA might take of the practice and I am a bit concerned that i currently[1] view undertaking as another tool in the toolbox - there to be used when it's the right tool for the job, but the experts with their collective experience don't share that view.

[1] - We're always evolving and learning as drivers so my views can and have changed, especially as i get older!

Caspian - What if you're driving along the m/way in good conditions with a lowish traffic density, and come across some g!t who's driving in the outside lane at a speed well below the limit?

268. Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, when adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in the left hand lane may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out lanes to overtake."

I find myself undertaking everyday on the new 4-lane section of the M1 between Jn 25 and 28. Complete morons just sit in the outside 2 lanes (which end up congested) with the inside 2 empty, sometimes for a good half-mile gap. When catching up to someone like this I flash my headlights to give them notice that I am there, if they don't move I just sail past on the inside. Some days I pass a considerable number of vehicles that are all bunched up in lanes 3 and 4 with lane 2 empty and me going past them all in lane 1.

Could I use the above rule 268 as my explanation if stopped?

Edited 18 November, 201015 yr by Chorlton

In my previous post I simply wanted to lay out the position as I saw it.

'Mute', Thanks for supporting my position,

'KenONeill', I do recognise the situtation you noted, as I have been faced with it myself. I confess that after waiting a while patiently behind the "g!t", I did very slowly and carefully undertake him, keeping as far away from him as possible and recognising as I did that I was taking a risk and could be held liable if the "g!t" did something stupid and caused an accident as I was passing.

'Chorlton', Personally I think you are taking a significant risk by "sailing past on the inside", if I understand the meaning of "sailing past" correctly. Those other drivers are in the wrong, but it will be no consolation if one of them as the poor driver he obviously is, takes that moment to leave the outer lane without checking to see you are there.

If you are travelling at speed, I don't think rule 268 will give adequate defence.

Undertaking

• It's dangerous, the driver being undertaken wont expect it and may pull into the undertaker without looking.
  
• It's illegal.
  
• It's at least a bit anti-social.
  

I do it fairly frequently it saves me ~7 mins on a ~45 minute journey, i thought it was saving me a lot more but i measured it, roughly a minute saved by each car / block of cars undertaken.

I've got a mate that knows all about undertaking. Seriously- he's an undertaker - 'nuff said

Edited 18 November, 201015 yr by slider

In my previous post I simply wanted to lay out the position as I saw it.

'Mute', Thanks for supporting my position,

'KenONeill', I do recognise the situtation you noted, as I have been faced with it myself. I confess that after waiting a while patiently behind the "g!t", I did very slowly and carefully undertake him, keeping as far away from him as possible and recognising as I did that I was taking a risk and could be held liable if the "g!t" did something stupid and caused an accident as I was passing.

'Chorlton', Personally I think you are taking a significant risk by "sailing past on the inside", if I understand the meaning of "sailing past" correctly. Those other drivers are in the wrong, but it will be no consolation if one of them as the poor driver he obviously is, takes that moment to leave the outer lane without checking to see you are there.

If you are travelling at speed, I don't think rule 268 will give adequate defence.

Caspian

interesting posts........personally i hate undertaking, i try not to do it.........I did today come accross Chorlton's situation though on the M6 and it seems frequently to be the case. It appears in this country that the motorway has turned on its head. Lanes 3/4 seem like the inside lane and 1/2 appear to be the outside lanes. On top of this every one is squashed up in the outside (inside) lane bumper to bumper. I found myself in lane 1 doing 50-60mph, slowing down not wanting to "undertake" those in lane 3. Then another car joins the tail of the next in lane 3 meaning that i am now undertaking. Should i slow down so nothing is on my right....you can bet another car will join lane 3.....or should i carry on steady at 50-60 and effectively undertake???

How is your manouvre different to Chorltons? Not being an ars*, just wondering.

I found myself in lane 1 doing 50-60mph, slowing down not wanting to "undertake" those in lane 3.

Hmmm, to my reading, neither the RTA nor the highway code supports the idea that progress is set by lane 3. The spirit of the HC says (264, 260) to me that rate of progress is nominally set by the driving lane; the overtaking lane(s) facilitate different, faster rates of progress in good conditions. The HC states (268) that in poorer conditions it's expected you will pass on the left.

Hmmm, to my reading, neither the RTA nor the highway code supports the idea that progress is set by lane 3. The spirit of the HC says (264, 260) to me that rate of progress is nominally set by the driving lane; the overtaking lane(s) facilitate different, faster rates of progress in good conditions. The HC states (268) that in poorer conditions it's expected you will pass on the left.

conditions were fine if you mean weather......road conditions were busy in the outside lane. I, wanting to remain in left lane unless overtaking, did in fact undertake. by your reading i was ok to undertake then. i suppose, as others have said, its about being careful.

if people in outside lanes returned to inside after overtaking would this cut congestion?