Well if the millions of us who don't currently bother with winter tyres suddenly decided to buy a set the tyre companies would have a very good year.....

That kind of logic also would apply saying for all those that make it through winter on trainers and suddenly buy winter shoes. Shoe companies would profit, which is unheard of, but your foot will be warmer, so you gain something.

A bit of a financial/marketing conspiracy you seem to have.

That kind of logic also would apply saying for all those that make it through winter on trainers and suddenly buy winter shoes. Shoe companies would profit, which is unheard of, but your foot will be warmer, so you gain something.

A bit of a financial/marketing conspiracy you seem to have.

There are millions of drivers in the UK who don't even know winter tyres exist. I maintain that if they all went out and bought winter tyres the tyre companies would have a significant blip in their sales. I fail to see how you can fault that logic.....

On that basis its entirely reasonable to be suspicious when the only people advising us to fit winter tyres are those who will make money out of it.

I'm not criticising the tyre people for offering the winter product but entirely reasonably I take their marketing information as just that.

Why no solid advice in favour on this from the UK government or RoSPA or the AA?

(RoSPA - http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/consultations/2010/independent-winter-resilience-review.pdf says:

Winter Tyres

RoSPA has been asked by some employers whether they should consider fitting winter tyres

to their fleets. There is little evidence to help assess whether that would be a sensible or cost-effective option in the UK.)

AA: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html - again far from conclusive...

Edited 21 December, 201114 yr by juan27

I think all your posts in this thread have been hidden behind reviews, companies, money and now Rospa and drivers who don't have a clue about winter tires and now government silence on winter tires is suspicious too.

Were AA vans last winter on summer or winter tires saving stranded people?

I don't know whats your agenda here, to debunk the myth about winter tires? It's a personal choice, proven to help in winter, there is no need for government to oblige you to get them (many countries do), it's up to you to choose. Many facts have been given here, and none seem to make a dent in your logic, so save the money and good luck.

There are millions of drivers in the UK who don't even know winter tyres exist. I maintain that if they all went out and bought winter tyres the tyre companies would have a significant blip in their sales. I fail to see how you can fault that logic.....

But they'd also have a significant downward blip in their summer tyre sales 6 months later. Say each time you buy a set of tyres it lasts a year before needing replaced (arbitrary number plucked out of the air), this time after 6 months you buy a set of winter tyres and use them for 6 months. So you then don't need to replace your summer tyres for two years and your winter tyres for two years (each has 6 months use per year) - therefore on average you're still buying one set of tyres per year - no gain/loss in sales for the tyre company. Question would then be which is more expensive (as others said above) - wide low-profile summer tyres or (probably)narrow higher profile winters (assuming on a cheap set of steel wheels).

QED

Personally I'm not buying any but that's because I live in Devon where it's hardly ever cold enough. If I was in the Scottish highlands or the Yorkshire moors then I probably would.

I shelled out on spare alloys and winter tyres this year because of my bad experiences during the previous two harsh winters. This winter Sod's law seems to be prevailing - it was 12 degrees down here on the tropical south today, and there's no sign of any impending freeze, but if I stick my lovely factory alloys with summer tyres back on I just know we'll immediately go arctic.

I shelled out on spare alloys and winter tyres this year because of my bad experiences during the previous two harsh winters. This winter Sod's law seems to be prevailing - it was 12 degrees down here on the tropical south today, and there's no sign of any impending freeze, but if I stick my lovely factory alloys with summer tyres back on I just know we'll immediately go arctic.

you need to move further North, until the temperatures rose yesterday there was still snow lying at the side of my driveway

I think all your posts in this thread have been hidden behind reviews, companies, money and now Rospa and drivers who don't have a clue about winter tires and now government silence on winter tires is suspicious too.

Were AA vans last winter on summer or winter tires saving stranded people?

I don't know whats your agenda here, to debunk the myth about winter tires? It's a personal choice, proven to help in winter, there is no need for government to oblige you to get them (many countries do), it's up to you to choose. Many facts have been given here, and none seem to make a dent in your logic, so save the money and good luck.

I have no "agenda" and no desire to debunk winter tyres. As I have already stated there are circumstances where

they are the best choice and I've even gone so far as to say if I lived in a different part of the UK or in a more

rural setting that I'd have some.

What we apparently have in the UK at the moment is a slow burn marketing campaign from tyres fitters and

car dealer networks saying that we should fit winter tyres as they are better below 7°C.

I have not seen any authoritative independent advice from anyone without a vested interest

categorically stating UK drivers should fit winter tyres.

I have researched and posted links to where I would expect that advice to come from and it isn't there.

To be honest I think I've tried to be fairly balanced about this.

Edited 22 December, 201114 yr by juan27

IMHO when it's cold and wet/damp you benefit from the winter rubber.

Cold and dry it doesn't hurt much if at all (depends on tyres)

Snow/slush, there isn't even a contest.

So bearing in mind cold/dry is rare in a UK winter, you're looking at being better off on winters.

Now add that you're running winters for 4-6 months and summers the rest, the only real cost you have is the extra set of wheels.

I have no "agenda" and no desire to debunk winter tyres. As I have already stated there are circumstances where

they are the best choice and I've even gone so far as to say if I lived in a different part of the UK or in a more

rural setting that I'd have some.

What we apparently have in the UK at the moment is a slow burn marketing campaign from tyres fitters and

car dealer networks saying that we should fit winter tyres as they are better below 7°C.

I have not seen any authoritative independent advice from anyone without a vested interest

categorically stating UK drivers should fit winter tyres.

I have researched and posted links to where I would expect that advice to come from and it isn't there.

To be honest I think I've tried to be fairly balanced about this.

Having driven on winters last winter and so far this winter, there is no contest. Winter tyres outperform summers on everything but dry roads on a warm winters day (10 degrees upwards).

I was not swung by any advertising or conspiracy. When we had 4 weeks of frozen snow and morning temperatures of minus 15 for weeks on end I couldn't even get off my drive on summer tyres, and it is level. The street isn't though, so when the rear tyres were on the road and the front still in the drive the car started sliding down the slope on summer tyres at the rear. On winters it gripped.

But then again I live in the hills in the North West where we rarely have a dry day.

Make your own mind up based on the conditions where you live, but I for one will use winters uninfluenced by any marketing hype.

Just as an aside and this might just be my experience but I live in a rural area where we share the roads with a lot of tractors. The wet mud this results in is almost as bad as ice at times and always made my car very skittish. On the winter tyres this year it feels much better tackling stretches of wet mud

I agree that that Autoexpress report did not seem to achieve what it set out to, either in that report or another one that was intended to prove the benefit of cold weather tyres in cold weather, the test temperature was probably too high.

As said near the beginning of this topic, premium summer tyres have become "only use in summer" tyres, and lots of us accidentaly end up buying them, in my case Michelin Exalto Pilots and Michelin Primacy HP - both these tyres end up near the bottom of the pile against winter conditions - that was why I ended up getting Michelin Alpin A3 and A4.

Also, winter weather where I live is tending to "provide" a lot more trecherous conditions than in the past, also my driveway does not get sun in winter, so the slightly warmer daytime temperatures end up melting the top layer which then refreezes into glass like ice at night when the air temperature drops and the cold soaked driveway cools the top layer - not nice, all that happens even if I remove as much snow as possible - as often as possible!

40 miles of twisty wet B roads today at 5 - 6 C. The winter Avons were brilliant. No slip and not a flash of traction control light when pulling away.

My Michelin energy's in the same conditions would have been skittish so they can stay in the shed until April 2012.

I'm convinced.

You drive more slowly, meaning us with winter tires have to slow down because of you.

If it snows, you can drive as fast as being stuck behind you on summer tires, so waste of time for you and others.

If you crash due to ice and snow, it does not necessarily mean you are driving too fast, it could mean your summer tires have lost grip on a sheet of ice, some person like you is sliding all over the road and hitting you, etc etc.

No point in listening to this kind of advice, all who can afford should get winter tires, all who can't, use public transport on bad days.

I've been driving 30+ years without sliding into anybody.

99% of drivers do not have winter tyres (in SE at least). So 99% have to leave the car at home so the 1% with winter tyres can drive 5mph faster? Thats never going to happen.

If your tyres lose grip on ice or snow, you are driving too fast for the conditions. Its your fault, not the ice's fault. This is stated in the highway code, which gives advice about driving in such conditions.

I've been driving 30+ years without sliding into anybody.

99% of drivers do not have winter tyres (in SE at least). So 99% have to leave the car at home so the 1% with winter tyres can drive 5mph faster? Thats never going to happen.

If your tyres lose grip on ice or snow, you are driving too fast for the conditions. Its your fault, not the ice's fault. This is stated in the highway code, which gives advice about driving in such conditions.

Same driving experience here, but for some of us, at certain locations in UK, to make reasonable progress in most road conditions all year round, the need to fit winter tyres in cold weather times of year, has been proved to be the correct choice - its not always about driving slower or more carefully, its about being able to successfully completing journeys to work when you need to make them. National and in some places, local funded road snow clearing is not properly rolled out in a timely manner when quite frankly it could have been. I'm not so stupid as to think that unpredicted drops of snow or ice will never happen, but in the main, the road teams do get access to good forcasting and sometimnes don't get the roads swept and salt/grit layed down in time for traffic peaks to "work it in" - so icy roads exist for up to 3 or 4 days - and the public are expected to get to work. This crappy old "get out" from the police "don't drive unless its necessary" just does not cut the mustard in a modern society - if most people don't get in to work then they simply will not get paid, or will need to make up for lost time, I'm okay with that as my family have grown up, but lots of people with young families need to be both working and maybe working shifts - so staying off the roads, unless its totally obvious that they cant get moving, is simply not an option.

I've never crashed into anyone due to ice or snow although the reverse has happened - driving suitably for the conditions is of course of paramount importance.

I've managed for 30+ years on regular tyres too with a bit of a struggle some winters but last 2 winters have had winter tyres because of where I live & where I play. Winter tyres weren't on my radar before that but something that will increase my chances of getting to my destination & back safely & without struggle for relatively small initial outlay is fine by me.

I am surprised however how evangelical some folk are about them here - noticing the extra grip straight away in pretty ordinary cold or wet conditions. I don't notice such nuanced changes over regular tyres - I don't drive my car to the limit however & despite a high mileage driving history I don't tend to notice the nuanced difference in handling between car A & car B or tyre A or tyre B other folk will often enthuse over. I think I may be a thick-skinned to the merits of performance not being a 'petrol head'. I get more excited about boot size, mpg, comfort - the boring stuff!

Basic grip & performance on ice & deep snow - coupled with the 4x4 are big tangible differences I did see last winter. Octy 4x4 - brilliant in snow - bloody brilliant in snow with winter tyres.

You're right about the evangelism. I don't notice a difference as such on cold and wet roads. The time I notice the difference is occasions like a couple of weeks back when I drove totally normally and was oblivious to the black ice. When I got out if the car I fell flat on my back as I'd been driving on sheet ice. I had to make very cautious progress on foot across the car park to the supermarket. Then the snow arrived (again) ;-)

Sent from my MZ601 using Tapatalk

Your posting did make me smile . Perhaps you have just set a new trend for winter soled shoes , though I suspect that you will have to change them more than twice a year !

Despite my frivolous remarks , this thread has provided us with the best topic of the year on Briskoda in 2011 !

Steve W

You're right about the evangelism. I don't notice a difference as such on cold and wet roads. The time I notice the difference is occasions like a couple of weeks back when I drove totally normally and was oblivious to the black ice. When I got out if the car I fell flat on my back as I'd been driving on sheet ice. I had to make very cautious progress on foot across the car park to the supermarket. Then the snow arrived (again) ;-)

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To me it is a no brainer. Having come from Germany where it is law (almost, but not quite) to have them I only ended up getting a set for my car and the wife's car last year. I did notice a difference in cold wet conditions instantly, and it was totally transformed in the snow (a lot less fun though ). I have since moved to Wiltshire and we changed both cars on the winters just before coming back, all we need now is the temperatures to drop to notice the difference again.

Each to their own I suppose, but I wouldn't be without them again, after all I spent enough money on both sets so they are not going to sit in the garage no matter what !!

I suspect that there is a degree of placebo effect for the people who comment on a massive improvement in cold/wet conditions.

I'm an avid advocate of switching to winter tyres (I have them for both cars) but I'd be the first to admit that there's little difference that you notice when it's not snowing.

In fact on my BMW I'd say it feels a little worse on winters (follows the cambers a bit more) but then it is very sensitive to tyre choice. The Octavia feels no different on the winter Dunlops.

I think it's also very important that you don't change your driving style- you shouldn't think you can drive faster with winters on, they should be there to give you more margin.

The reason behind the switch to winters for me is two-fold.

1- excluding the last couple of years, we'll have an average of maybe 3 or 4 days of snow a year. If I can get to work on those days when I would otherwise be stuck at home then they've more than paid for themselves.

2- And this is the most important for me- Good winter tyres are proven to stop quicker and provide more cornering grip in the cold and damp conditions that I drive in for the vast majority of the winter.

In my opinion choosing winters for the colder months is exactly the same as choosing premium tyres for my summers.

I would never fit cheap tyres to my car in the summer because they don't perform as well in the extreme stopping or avoidance situations I hope to never experience.

That's the exact same reason why I choose to fit winter tyres in the winter.

I was thinking about this earlier and especially the "I've managed fine for 30 years " argument. I've also managed fine without using abs and my traction control has never activated. Would I suggest doing without them? No. Coz I know that they improve safety and it's better to have them in case I find myself in a situation where they're necessary.

Nollaig chridheil!

Sent from my MZ601 using Tapatalk

You're right about the evangelism. I don't notice a difference as such on cold and wet roads. The time I notice the difference is occasions like a couple of weeks back when I drove totally normally and was oblivious to the black ice. When I got out if the car I fell flat on my back as I'd been driving on sheet ice. I had to make very cautious progress on foot across the car park to the supermarket. Then the snow arrived (again) ;-)

Re falling after getting out of car, I had that problem a week last Saturday in Edinburgh, thought "idiot roads people wasting salting/gritting effort on clear roads" - parked up near a famous pie shop and thought that I had stood on something nasty - wrong, black ice on pavement. Later at TESCO near Redford same problem - and that was both in the car parking areas and access roads - and shopper were "flying" around in their cars. Just shows, sometimes you can get away with being ignorant to current road conditions, I had winter tyres on but I'd reckon that 95% of other shoppers would not have!

I suspect that there is a degree of placebo effect for the people who comment on a massive improvement in cold/wet conditions.

I'm an avid advocate of switching to winter tyres (I have them for both cars) but I'd be the first to admit that there's little difference that you notice when it's not snowing.

In fact on my BMW I'd say it feels a little worse on winters (follows the cambers a bit more) but then it is very sensitive to tyre choice. The Octavia feels no different on the winter Dunlops.

I think it's also very important that you don't change your driving style- you shouldn't think you can drive faster with winters on, they should be there to give you more margin.

The reason behind the switch to winters for me is two-fold.

1- excluding the last couple of years, we'll have an average of maybe 3 or 4 days of snow a year. If I can get to work on those days when I would otherwise be stuck at home then they've more than paid for themselves.

2- And this is the most important for me- Good winter tyres are proven to stop quicker and provide more cornering grip in the cold and damp conditions that I drive in for the vast majority of the winter.

In my opinion choosing winters for the colder months is exactly the same as choosing premium tyres for my summers.

I would never fit cheap tyres to my car in the summer because they don't perform as well in the extreme stopping or avoidance situations I hope to never experience.

That's the exact same reason why I choose to fit winter tyres in the winter.

I agree completely, though the step change in characteristics is very apparent for my wife in her 2WD car - when our steep driveway ices up (gets little sun in winter and is 150 meters above sealevel) with summer tyres mainly difficult or no-go without a lot of salt/grit being laid down (wastes time in the morning) then the following 400 meters to the main road depends on how much other neighbours have played their part in road clearing, so more probably time wasting - with winter tyres, getting out is easy and predictable, though maybe a bit more caution is needed when returning as the 400 meters of estate road and our driveway will have thawed slightly and refrozen. That last issue, ie refreezing estate roads was the reason that I fitted winter tyres to my Passat 4Motion as coming home down the driveway last year was becoming a problem - better to open the garage door first so that there was a safe place to land (and stop).

Now, the real nasty thing about some folks that need winter tyres and don't spend money on them is, these people, after having a lot of trouble getting to a main road, wise up so park their cars on the main road - solves their immediate problem but makes driving a bit more difficult for all other road users (main routes end up getting long stretches with parking on both sides where normally there is none) and the winter roads team just can not sweep and grit the roads as they normally would!

Your posting did make me smile . Perhaps you have just set a new trend for winter soled shoes , though I suspect that you will have to change them more than twice a year !

Despite my frivolous remarks , this thread has provided us with the best topic of the year on Briskoda in 2011 ! Steve W

Yes, why can't we get hold of normal shoes with cold weather grippy soles - instead of needing to fit these handy but messy grippy things or wear proper walking boots!

I thought I would comment again re the effigy of winter tyres.

At least in my preception.

Despite having driven for 35 years in all conditions and never having being "beat" or having to admit defeat , and in a mix of RWD (older) & FWD (more recently) cars, running on average ordinary tyres but never possessed a 4WD (until very recently & for unrelated reasons)

Winter tyres ..."bah humbug"...........dont need em............ despite a sister living in Germany wittering on about their benefits.

Last winter as the proud owner of an Octavia on brand new tyres, I was properly beat, on a hill that i have driven on this last 35 years. ( & passed by a wee Peugeot Partner Van, he simply "tootled" up past me with no fuss!!!!)

So I bought & fitted Continental winter tyres.

The Car was transformed ( & I am not a car nut)

But this winter, despite owning the tyres I did not be arsed to fit them as November was so mild, an I thought we were not gong to get another bad one.

Went to visit my Mum on a Monday night in early December, over the mountain, in falling snow, blow me, near embarrased my self again, I did well to get turned & beat a retreat.

Tyres were quite useless despite only a lok o slush lying , not proper snow at all.

So the winters went on the next day, not had much snow since but I's is well convinced.

In summation I throughly agree with the OP in that the "average" summer tyre has now become so specilized & wide, to optimize summer traction ............as to be less use/no use in winter conditions.

Edited 29 December, 201114 yr by dieseldogg

Time was I wouldn't have given winter tyres a second thought as here in Berkshire snow and ice are rare indeed. Or were until the last couple of years. I'll be changing my car in March and come next winter it will have a set of winters. I drive in Germany for a week each December and to introduce another point about them the German Government introduced a new law about them just over a year ago. You don't HAVE to drive on winter tyres in the winter but if you get stuck in adverse driving conditions without them on your car then you'll get a fine of (I think) 40 Euros. Another thing to bear in mind for anyone planning to drive in Germany is that many cities now have Umwelt Zone (Low emission zones) and you can be fined if you don't have a sticker. All you need do to get one is either use the internet or call in to a TUV (MOT) centre with the car's logbook and hand over 5 Euros. It lasts as long as the car.