the advice that having more grip at the back is simply dangerous [...] the front is the best place to have the grip.

The issue that concerns me is that having enhanced front end grip can lead to unwarranted confidence.

If people who choose winter tyres only on the front axle treated them as if they were snow chains or snow socks, with their attendant limitations, the risk of unexpected accidents would be reduced. However that's not what happens. Their choice, and potentially their loss.

Edited 21 December, 201015 yr by AnotherGareth

I suspect, possibly, that the "4 wheel law" is to allow for those who don't know if their car is FWD, RWD or 4WD, so you're forced to take the most sensible option, which is not so bad I supose. (Mind you, I supose we're into "nanny state" territory there) ;-) ;-)

Alex

[/quote

Might be some truth in that and it looks that FWD/RWD is a mystery for some: http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/184526-car-crash-in-snow-video/page__view__findpost__p__2211033

But the main reason is that with huge difference in grip rear/front it's more likely to have some nasty surprises. not as bad as having different grip right/left, but still...

As for the front/rear question: I'd sooner be surprised by sudden understeer than by sudden oversteer... and even if aquaplaning always terrifies me, I (again) rather lose front grip than rear.

The issue that concerns me is that having enhanced front end grip can lead to unwarranted confidence.

So you'd rather people had less grip, and less confidence? Crazy.

If people who choose winter tyres only on the front axle treated them as if they were snow chains or snow socks, with their attendant limitations, the risk of unexpected accidents would be reduced. However that's not what happens. Their choice, and potentially their loss.

Sounds like you don't want to admit you were wrong, and how do you know that's what happens? As opposed to your "have less grip where you need it, so drive round scared of understeering off the road" idea? Bizarre.

Edited 21 December, 201015 yr by djaychela

So you'd rather people had less grip, and less confidence? Crazy.

Yes. I saw it put best on Pistonheads ... if you just have winter tyres on the front and drive as if you have four summer tyres you'll be fine, but if you drive as if you have four winter tyres you won't. Does that satisfy you?

Presumably you'd be similarly happy to drive around in the summer with radial tyres on the front and crossply tyres on the rear? After all, according to you, the rear tyres have no effect on safety.

Yes. I saw it put best on Pistonheads ... if you just have winter tyres on the front and drive as if you have four summer tyres you'll be fine, but if you drive as if you have four winter tyres you won't. Does that satisfy you?

Again, you're making a ridiculous point, probably because you've been shown to be wrong. You don't need to drive "as if you have four summer tyres" at all, you can drive more safely as you will have more grip and more control of the car. Clearly if you had more grip at the rear as well, then that would be better, but that's not what was being asked, nor was the point you were making. If you have more grip than before (i.e. with grippier front) then you will be safer than if you didn't. Simple. Doesn't give you carte blanche to drive like an idiot, or think that you've suddenly got the grip you would have on dry tarmac, etc., but that's bloody obvious, just like driving on gravel on A048s wouldn't work well, or driving on tarmac on M&S tyres means you have less grip. Only a moron would think that driving on gravel on trackday tyres would work well, and yet that's what the statement essentially presumes someone would do; it's clearly idiotic, and doesn't really require much examination.

Presumably you'd be similarly happy to drive around in the summer with radial tyres on the front and crossply tyres on the rear?

No, that's a completely different situation, so don't be ridiculous.

After all, according to you, the rear tyres have no effect on safety.

That's not what I've said at all - can you please tell me where I've said that? Thought not.

Re-read it, as clearly you have misunderstood (at best), or are deliberately misrepresenting what I've said (at worst). Either way, it's not what I've said.

OK I'll have another go at it ...

As you know I think that have two winter tyres fitted to the front of a fwd car when summer tyres are fitted to the rear is potentially dangerous, and I think that having four summer tyres is better from a safety point of view. I suggest people get snow socks if they are having trouble getting about with four summer tyres.

An example of my concern is a demonstration by VBH at MIRA. This shows what happens on wet roads, but that isn't the point. The fundamental issue is what happens when the back loses grip before the front, and the interesting thing is that on snow and ice the speed the car is traveling at when grip is lost is often lower than on a warm wet road.

I found a Swedish study (.pdf, 15 pages of text) from 1998 into the benefits of ABS on snow and ice using a number of drivers using identical cars and with a range of tyres. Near the beginning, at the top of page 2, it says

"In accident investigations, the difference between front and rear axle tyres should be carefully examined, since it is decisive of stability. This recommendation applies to any accident with evidence of skidding, irrespective of road condition. A survey of fatal hydroplaning accidents in four summer weeks, revealed that nine of ten people were killed in crashes where the deviating car had a much deeper tread pattern at the front tyres than at the rear ones. If the lateral adhesion is greater at the front axle, stability is threatened."

It goes on to say, at the bottom of page 2 and onto the top of page 3:

"In a double lane change manoeuvre without braking, loss of control occurred in 40% of the tests with over-steering properties (superior tyres at the front). When tyres were shifted between front and rear axles, the loss of control ratio decreased to 20% of the tests."

Edited 22 December, 201015 yr by AnotherGareth

"In accident investigations, the difference between front and rear axle tyres should be carefully examined, since it is decisive of stability. This recommendation applies to any accident with evidence of skidding, irrespective of road condition. A survey of fatal hydroplaning accidents in four summer weeks, revealed that nine of ten people were killed in crashes where the deviating car had a much deeper tread pattern at the front tyres than at the rear ones. If the lateral adhesion is greater at the front axle, stability is threatened."

Yes, I don't believe anyone's disputed that less grip at the back increases the risk of instability under heavy braking. However emergency braking performance does not directly extrapolate to general car control. Going right back to the original point of this thread, have a guess at how much time one spends on UK roads doing emergency stops from high speed in the snow, compared to how much time one spends trying to drive forwards and change direction at about 15mph. Does it really sound sensible to jeopardise your ability to make safe progress in order to slightly improve your chances in a hypothetical situation? Also, off the snow and ice, remember those rear tyres are not hypothetical either - they are the exact same rear tyres most of us Felicia drivers are driving around with on all 4 wheels right now without much issue, so to suggest that having more grip at the the front is suddenly going to put us in danger is to assume that winter tyres come with free idiot pills that will make us believe we're Sebastian Loeb and we've left the gas on.

It's also worth noting that in the paper you linked to, no conclusion is drawn about tyre choice in terms of directional stability - only of the difference between the presence or not of ABS - despite that being the point you're attempting to make.

"In a double lane change manoeuvre without braking, loss of control occurred in 40% of the tests with over-steering properties (superior tyres at the front). When tyres were shifted between front and rear axles, the loss of control ratio decreased to 20% of the tests."

On a frozen lake with studded tyres with the drivers asked to maintain a constant speed throughout the manoeuvre, the speed being deliberately chosen by the testers to be high enough to provoke skidding. Again, it does prove a point, but that still doesn't make it OK to make foolish extrapolations (although given that 's what most reporting of science tends to do, I accept why most people might think so) - who in the real world is going to perform such a manoeuvre? Anyone who's prepared enough to consider winter tyres is expecting to be driving in slippery conditions, and aware of the reasons why they might need them, so it's a safe bet they will also be driving in a far more careful manner - not attempting things such as a sharp change in direction without slowing down - compared to someone who doesn't even know winter tyres exist (who is far more likely to be unexpectedly understeering onto your side of the road on their 4 budget Chinese 'all-weather' tyres and causing a serious accident)

Yes, there are always specific reasons why X is better than Y, but unless you consider the whole situation - which can be difficult without experience - it's unwise to draw advice from them. If you don't believe that, then I thoroughly recommend you stop driving, sell your car and never ever go outside your house again, cause I can show you a whole load of proven data that shows you're far, far more likely to be killed if you don't.

Did you not understand the second quote? A double lane change without braking is exactly the sort of thing that happens when a car pulls out unexpectedly from a side turning and where you don't have enough room to stop. It's isn't just under braking that rear traction can potentially be lost. They clearly state the risk of loss of control is significantly higher for that kind of manoeuvre if the better (grippier) tyres are on the front.

Take a look at a thread in the Octavia II forum for an example of what can go wrong.

Edited 23 December, 201015 yr by AnotherGareth

Did you not understand the second quote? A double lane change without braking is exactly the sort of thing that happens when a car pulls out unexpectedly from a side turning and where you don't have enough room to stop. It's isn't just under braking that rear traction can potentially be lost. They clearly state the risk of loss of control is significantly higher for that kind of manoeuvre if the better (grippier) tyres are on the front.

Take a look at a thread in the Octavia II forum for an example of what can go wrong.

Gareth, I think you've wholly missed the point of what's going on. Seriously,

When this thread started, we had a serious amount of snow over the entire UK. The speeds people were able to drive at (unless you were a total prat) were 15-20 mph. All the data you've presented is related to travelling at speeds way in excess of that. At you seriously expecting to encounter more oversteer than understeer at 15-20mph? Are you seriously expecting to have a catastrophic loss of rear-end control at 15-20mph under "emergency braking"? Do you seriously expect to have to perform a double lane change at 15-20mph? (at 15-20mph, do you seriously expect to complete the maneuver and get to the 2nd lane?)

The high-speed data is all fun to look at, and I (for one) feel enlightened for it, but we weren't driving at high-speeds in this thread. What you've tried to advocate is admirable: "in high speed conditions, all 4 tyres should be matched". If you're driving at high speeds, in the weather conditions we had, on the UK highways, with normal drivers also on the road, then you are not only risking your own life, but everyone else's too.

Alex

As the back wheels don't contribute to the "driving" of the car (they are just glorified jockey wheels), I would say just the fronts would be fine.

Alex

look in the Octavia forum been done to death. On the front only is not a good idea, you will have tyres with two very different grip levels which will probably end up with you losing the back end. Have a look on youtube plenty on there about it too.

If it was me, I'd either fork out for 4 or not bother at all. My fabia has normal tyres on and so far not been stuck once, I've found using idle/anti-stall only has kept me going when others have struggled.

The speeds people were able to drive at (unless you were a total prat) were 15-20 mph.

The extra confidence that winter tyres provides is in the region of 20-30 mph. If people fit winter tyres to the front axle alone, many will be driving significantly faster than 15-20 mph but, as this thread has shown, without appreciating the potential risk.

If you are only planning to go at 15-20 mph in adverse conditions then snow socks seem like a much better solution as they're cheaper and are less likely to give misplaced confidence.

The extra confidence that winter tyres provides is in the region of 20-30 mph. If people fit winter tyres to the front axle alone, many will be driving significantly faster than 15-20 mph but, as this thread has shown, without appreciating the potential risk.

If you are only planning to go at 15-20 mph in adverse conditions then snow socks seem like a much better solution as they're cheaper and are less likely to give misplaced confidence.

lol, so the answers to all the other questions was a resounding "no" then. Thank you :-)

When this thread started, we had a serious amount of snow over the entire UK. The speeds people were able to drive at (unless you were a total prat) were 15-20 mph.

You don't seem to appreciate that 40-50 mph is easily possible on compacted snow when you have winter tyres fitted, and if you have 4 winter tyres fitted that isn't unreasonable. Those sorts of speeds aren't even scary. The only issue is that you catch other vehicles that don't have the benefit of winter tyres and so are going a lot slower. It's also not unreasonable to overtake those slower vehicles, the performance difference of the tyres being so large.

You don't seem to appreciate that 40-50 mph is easily possible on compacted snow when you have winter tyres fitted, and if you have 4 winter tyres fitted that isn't unreasonable. Those sorts of speeds aren't even scary. The only issue is that you catch other vehicles that don't have the benefit of winter tyres and so are going a lot slower. It's also not unreasonable to overtake those slower vehicles, the performance difference of the tyres being so large.

You have totally failed to appreciate that the question was about fitting TWO tyres to the FRONT of a Felicia in the SNOW. Lots of off-topic ramblings about 4 tyres in the wet, under emergency braking etc, very entertaining too, but not what the OP was asking. Neither do I think the OP mentioned about driving around at 40-50mph.

I wasn't talking about what CAN be achieved, I mentioned what people where actually driving at. There is a somewhat huge difference there. On Friday there was a 12 mile queue on the A25 in Surrey. The A25 isn't a straight road and the best speed acheived over those 12 miles was 20mph. There are inclines, declines, curves, bends and traffic lights. One lane in both directions, with virtually no overtaking prospects even in the summer sun. In those, real world actually experienced, driving conditions your rear is along for the ride. Emergency braking, high-speed avoidance tactics etc play zero part in what goes on.

I take it that you would plan to over-take the entire 12 miles of traffic somehow, just because you have winter tyres on? Are you that much of in impatient driver normally?

Exactly what part do the rear wheels play when trying to go uphill in the snow, in the vehicle that was in the OP?

However, I don't expect any answers to any of the questions I, and indeed anyone else has asked. I do expect more blabberings about 4 tyres, emergency avoidance driving, rain, "in the lab" test etcetcetc.

Edited 23 December, 201015 yr by RainbowFore

not what the OP was asking.

Did you read the OP's first message? Let me refresh your memory ...

I've just been in to the nearest town and even taking it easy managed to get slightly sideways on one roundabout. I think if I put winter tyres on the front only I may get too confident and risk having the back slide out more often.

I barely used the brakes on the whole trip as the diesel's excellent for slowing up on the gears but other drivers get really close because they see no brake lights. It was this that got me sideways - touching the brake for the car behind.

The concerns expressed by the OP show him to be a responsible driver. He's already experiencing the rear of the car sliding, and as he put it, just by going around a roundabout or by "touching the brake".

His second post talks about going up a nearby hill. Chances are that if he has to go up it, he also has to go down, and going down is potentially more risky in slippery conditions. All this talk about just fitting winter tyres to the front doesn't help his concern about the back end sliding. And he's right to think having winter tyres on the front might result in him getting too confident.

I wasn't talking about what CAN be achieved, I mentioned what people where actually driving at. There is a somewhat huge difference there.

When you're in a queue then you're constrained in what you can do. I don't know about you but I don't always drive in queues.

Last Sunday for example. I went out driving with a group of friends. We drove about 180 miles on a mixture of treated and untreated roads, keeping away from the main roads wherever possible. The cars all had four winter or four all season tyres. We drove up to the speed limit where it was safe to do so, and that was a much greater proportion of the time than those stuck in slow moving queues would do. No children were hurt in our exploration of snow and ice driving.

Exactly what part do the rear wheels play when trying to go uphill in the snow, in the vehicle that was in the OP?

That wasn't the OP's original question.

Yawn,

So answer the OP then:

Is a Felicia safe with winter tyres on front only?

Yes or No?

Did you read the OP's first message?

Yup, but hacking a sentence in down to 5% is a poor way to make an argument.

To refresh your memory what was said was:

"You have totally failed to appreciate that the question was about fitting TWO tyres to the FRONT of a Felicia in the SNOW. Lots of off-topic ramblings about 4 tyres in the wet, under emergency braking etc, very entertaining too, but not what the OP was asking. Neither do I think the OP mentioned about driving around at 40-50mph."

So, in the OP was there mention about emergency braking in the wet? Avoidance tactics? Driving at 40-50mph in the snow?

I don't know about you but I don't always drive in queues.

Oh goody for you, I'm glad for you that you have that choice.

Those sorts of speeds aren't even scary. The only issue is that you catch other vehicles that don't have the benefit of winter tyres and so are going a lot slower. It's also not unreasonable to overtake those slower vehicles, the performance difference of the tyres being so large.

Tells us all we need to know, really. 110mph on my bike isn't even scary either, and it's only a little 500. Guess it's "not unreasonable" to go that quick all the time then, since I can? (oh, and Brabham straight, Brands Hatch, September 2004, before you cast another insulting and incorrect aspersion about my driving). Did your winter tyres come with a certificate waiving your responsibility towards the safety of other road users? Remember the vast majority of drivers out there consider a car much like another home appliance and don't know anything more about car control other than the vague memories of what was mentioned in their driving test decades ago. They don't have the confidence you or I have, yet they have exactly the same right to be on the road, so we have to drive at the same speed as everyone else for safety, benefiting from the knowledge that we are then well within the limitations of our own vehicle. To think otherwise is arrogant and downright dangerous for everyone.

I'll finish my input to this thread with a little more relevant practical experience. The last few evenings I've stayed late at work and had a play in the nearly-empty carpark, in my Felicia, on exactly the kind of ungritted, refrozen compacted snow being discussed as the most dangerous. Guess what? At speeds of up to 30mph, I've found it essentially impossible to lose control no matter how much I tried. Even with the handbrake I've not been able to provoke more than a still-controllable slide from the rear end, let alone a spin, and that's on Continental EcoContact 3's, which I believe have been standard fitment on Felicias or Fabias at at least some point (might still be, I've not checked). The front end, however, scrabbles around all over the place and would definitely benefit from more traction for all practical purposes.

Yes, it's possible to do 50mph on compacted snow, even on all-round tyres; I did that too the other day on a nice wide deserted B-road with good visibility and it was very enjoyable - a bit of nice controllable understeery sliding that put a big smile on my face. Of course, because I don't have any of the aforementioned idiot pills I damn well did not drive like that whenever there was the remotest possibility of meeting another vehicle. In short, if you don't know with reasonable certainty that you can stop safely in the space you can see in front of you, whatever the conditions, then you're driving too fast, regardless of what your vehicle may be capable of. Again, in all the snow and ice, I've only had the ABS kick in once, when someone cut me up going round a rather chaotic roundabout in heavy snowfall (and incidentally, there too it was the front, not the rear, that was slipping).

On a final note, I can also say I for one have never suddenly changed direction in an avoidance manoeuvre without attempting to reduce my speed, or on one occasion flooring it as trying to stop would have left nowhere to go between the oncoming car and the dithering tit pulled out half-way into my lane. And never have I been deliberately driving too fast for the conditions, so I stand by my statement that test conditions are not necessarily representative or real-world driving.

Since the sensible answers are on page 1 and it's clear no further constructive input is going to be made, I suggest we close this one and anyone who wants can start up an "I want to argue about the risks of driving in a knowingly inappropriate way for the situation" thread somewhere else. Preferably somewhere it won't annoy the rest of us.

Is a Felicia safe with winter tyres on front only?

You decide.

Remember the vast majority of drivers out there consider a car much like another home appliance and don't know anything more about car control other than the vague memories of what was mentioned in their driving test decades ago.

My point exactly. I couldn't have put it better.

You decide.

Another useless posting from you.

1) you obviously are incapable of answering questions, of any kind, from anyone.

2) the video you champion (again from someone who wants to sell you tyres) doesn't show 4 normal tyres for comparison, only 2 snow vs 4 snow. So there is no valid input, again, to what was in the OP.

Your input has now become completely irrelevant. :-)

Alex

I'll finish my input to this thread with a little more relevant practical experience. The last few evenings I've stayed late at work and had a play in the nearly-empty carpark, in my Felicia, on exactly the kind of ungritted, refrozen compacted snow being discussed as the most dangerous. Guess what? At speeds of up to 30mph, I've found it essentially impossible to lose control no matter how much I tried. Even with the handbrake I've not been able to provoke more than a still-controllable slide from the rear end, let alone a spin, and that's on Continental EcoContact 3's, which I believe have been standard fitment on Felicias or Fabias at at least some point (might still be, I've not checked). The front end, however, scrabbles around all over the place and would definitely benefit from more traction for all practical purposes.

Ah, the company car-park. Many many fine hours playing in mine over the years. The best I've been on is fairly large car-park hidden behind the Jubilee industrial estate in Letchworth, Here.

Alas though, despite judicious use of the handbrake, no death, no crash, no bump, just mild easy peasy oversteer with the handbrake on. The rest of the time was spent with the back behaving very very predictably. All this in the mighty mighty Renault 9 1.4 Broadway saloon with cheap black round stuff on the wheels. (Cheap being the operative word at the time.)

Maybe we're just not driving fast enough or bad enough Robin. ;-)

Alex

Yawn,

So answer the OP then:

Is a Felicia safe with winter tyres on front only?

Yes or No?

YES

I have a pair of soft gravel rally tyres on the front of my felly and some 10yr old michelin road tyres on the back (185-60x14" too) and the front will still lose traction before the rear on the island by me but has the added advantage of being able to actually climb up snowy hills etc.

I even overtook a suzuki 4x4 up a steep hill last nite as he was slipping all over the place on wide road tyres.

at most sensible speeds and with sensible driving you will not get enough front grip to be able to lose the rear even on ice/snow.

in my opinion not the slightest bit dangerous (I even make my missus drive it instead of the octy when the roads are bad !! )

do it you wont regret it

After last year's snow I was thinking of using two spare wheels I have and getting a pair of winter tyres on them for the front of my Felicia diesel. Now we're back in the thick of it again I wondered if that's really a good idea. I've just been in to the nearest town and even taking it easy managed to get slightly sideways on one roundabout. I think if I put winter tyres on the front only I may get too confident and risk having the back slide out more often.

I barely used the brakes on the whole trip as the diesel's excellent for slowing up on the gears but other drivers get really close because they see no brake lights. It was this that got me sideways - touching the brake for the car behind. Any tips on how to deal with that? (Stay at home? )

Thanks

Mitch

....and so, in conclusion, based on real-world experience from those who drive Felicias in many different conditions, the answer is yes, it is safe and does bring benefits.

Additional:

However: 4 tyres would be more benificial, especially if you wish to drive about at higher speeds, or like a total nutter.

But: If you think that it would make you over-confident, either make a mental adjustment (no offence intended, but confidence is purely a mental thing), or walk.

Of course, there's an important point here in that the answer to the question, 'Is a Felicia safe?' - with no further qualification - is No. Just like any other car. It's only safe (well, _fairly_ safe) if you know in great detail what you're doing with it. Safety is all relative. So for pedantic accuracy we should instead consider two slightly different questions:

1. Will winter tyres on the front of a Felicia get you out of trouble compared with summer or 'all-season' tyres? - Probably, yes. (only 'probably', mind you, because it depends on the particular tyres concerned)

2. Will winter tyres on the rear as well as the front get you out of trouble compared with having them on the front only? - Yes.

But there are always other ways of avoiding said trouble - drive slower, drive more circumspectly, don't drive, etc.