Racing: How do you know ... corners

[Mute]

Every time i go on track, there's always (conservatively positioned) braking boards, cones to show turn in, apex and exit points. How should you handle this if there's no markers? Trial and error? Is there a better way to identify the fastest line? What about working out correct entry speed for the car you're in?

I understand an old hand is just going to look at a corner and know instinctively. What can i look out for to be better at this?

[JLneonhug]

Hmm.. Since there is no telemetry (im guessing) in the car I guess doing some homework on the track layout, where theoretically you should take it. Perhaps ask more experienced people who go there more frequently and get some tips from them? Im not sure if there are specific forums for circuits in the UK or the likes. Going further on the theory side you could find some simulations of the track, if its not on the console games it'll most likely be on the PC based simulation games like.. Race 07 etc.

More traditional way I suppose is like you say go on the track and walk it, see the darker markings which have been left by the other cars, generally they probably give a good indication of where the line is. Go to race days and see how they take corners.. There is also the factor of, 'preferred line'. I also assume different cars with different set up may take slight different line.

This is of course spoken by a person who never went on a track .

[BossFox]

I'd probably follow a car of similar ability to look how it does and then build up to what I thought was safe over a few laps.

[Mute]

Cheers for these guys. Since i posted this i've also been chatting to a racing instructor. He say's at my level it's trial and error but the hard bit for me will be identifying what was a success and what was an error! His way of checking was 2-fold:

1) Check your position on the exit of the corner:

1.1) If you're having to apply more lock on the exit of the corner to avoid running off the track, you've apexed too early.

1.2) If you're not making it over to the full width of the track on the exit (while trying to unwind the steering asap) then you've apexed too late.

2) Check your exit speed, when your wheel returns to the straight ahead position, how far out of the corner are you, and what speed are you doing (actually he said what revs are you running but i guess that's more for dedicated track cars)

He said it gets more complex as you progress, you have to think of the corner in tandem with the previous and next corners and your position / speed through those.

[KenONeill]

I'm not really a track driver but I can confirm what the instructor said from personal experience.

The other thing to consider is "how fast do you arrive at your first manoevre point (brake, lift or turn in) for the next turn relative to similar cars?" I still remember back when there was a race track at Ingliston watching one guy turn in early, run wide off the exit, be late on the power, and take the next turn flat where his team mate was turning later, staying tighter, and having a dab of brake on the next turn.

So Guy1 was slower than Guy2 in the same car for about 1/4 miles from getting 1 turnin consistently wrong.

[Soot1e]

Why don't you have a instruction session at the track day? I haven't been to a trackday yet where instruction is not available. Usually £10-£20 for about 1/2 hour.

[r200ti]

What are acutally after mate, learning new tracks quicker or simply lowering your laptimes?

J

[Mute]

learning new tracks quicker

This, i went to a couple of timed events recently and it took me until near the end of each of my sessions to get anywhere near competitive with the guys who'd been before :-( After the first 2 laps i was ok with remembering what the next 2 corners would be - although i wasn't so good at remembering how far away they were or exactly where they were located in relation to the current corner.

That last bit hampered my attempts to join the corners up a bit and i think i need to work on that.

[r200ti]

What car are you using?

This can make a difference in how long it takes to learn a set of corners.

Im guessing these are twisty sprint tracks, not full size race tracks (where you tend to have plenty of time to think about the next few corners)?

If so, yeh it can be tricky as your not able to plan your approaches and you dont get enough practise laps to figure out whats going where.

Something to consider - we dont know the scale of your problem. Saying your doing timed events says to me your reasonably experianced/capable anyway!! Which makes giving useful advise tricky without seeing how your going

J

[KenONeill]

This may sound odd, but raise your driver's seat. Yes "just able to see over the dashboard" gives you a lower CoG, but sitting higher lets you see more of the track ahead sooner.

Also, if the issue is "knowing/remembering where the track goes next", pros use video games (only going to help with F1, BTCC and the like tracks), and there is a published set of circuit maps with lines etc, although it costs something like £60 IIRC.

[Jabbasport]

Work up to your pace, dont go hammering into corners, you'll be slower..

Start out slow, paying attention to your lines, braking points, turn in etc.

You'll notice as the day progresses you'll have learnt you can brake later, turn in faster, you'll naturally be using points on the circuit to judge your braking.

You can also use a technique called "limit point", take a look on google for more info.

Kev

[ncarring]

Limit points can be tricky and a bit deceptive on a race circuit where 9 times out of 10 you can see over the corner as well as into it. It takes discipline to stop doing that and just look straight ahead. That said once you know the circuit you will be going far faster than under road conditions where the limit point is limiting your vision, and therefore safety.

I don't have a good answer for the OP. A good maxim is Sir Jacky's - you may remember from the TG episode where he taught James May to drive Oulton Park (a pretty difficult circuit to start with). "Never put the poor doon until you can be sure you won't have to take it off again" - or translated into an even older maxim - "slow in, fast out". You want a turn in point that finds the ideal late apex and slingshots you out of a corner. Sometimes that can be translated as "wait to turn in until you can see the exit", but it doesn't work with very long curves or ones that tighten part way round. It also ignores, as others have posted, the necessity to link corners together. If you can find a plan of the circuit, usually the line that works is the one that turns each corner, or combination of corners, into the widest arcs possible, so try to use the whole width of the track. Of course sometimes adverse camber and poor bits of surface will mess with that.

[Jabozuma]

I received one very good advice, can't remember where. It boils down to one sentence.

When entering a corner do not look at your braking point, apex or anything else, just look where you want your car to be when you exit that corner. When I employed this technique for the first time it was like somebody put the softest slicks on the car and jetted it with 100bhp Nos - perhaps a slight exaggeration .

It may not be for all people but I noticed when I was doing it that my brain was processing entry speed, breaking point, apex aiming much better subconsciously then when I was paying it the utmost attention - it just happened.

It works the best for complex corners when you HAVE to take very unnatural line to be fast.

The above obviously assumes a basic knowledge of a track, breaking points, best lines etc.

When I am learning a track I go really slow first, then faster ad faaster until I start loosing it or land in wrong places exiting the corner.

This also hugely depends on the car you are running. For cars having much more power than grip (BossFox's Yellow Submarine for example in race mode) the most important thing is to be able to lay the power down after the corner as fast as possible. so break, change direction, accelerate - no sliding allowed!

For more "sane" motors the ability to carry the speed through corners will be more important i.e. you may slide into it in such a way as to regain full grip where you are able to accelerate again.

LH gave me a good tip for one particularly pesky corner on Hoddesdon kart track. You arrive at it at medium speed, it is 180 bend and track is narrowing at the exit. The "correct way" is to go to the outside before the corner starts, kiss the apex, go wide again. But his fastest way was to brutally trow the kart in at high speed, let it slide almost sideways as this allowed him to put the power down the earliest. It is a whole different ball game when you other racers around .

I was always full of admiration for people who can teach other people how to do things as from what you can see above I am rather pants at it lol.

[KenONeill]

I've heard the "look at where you want to go" thing before, but mostly in a 2-wheel context.

Your "LH corner" sounds like it should probably be a late apex, because "ye cannae poot th' po'or doon when ye think ye can".

[Jabozuma]

It does originate from single seater/karting but works really well for me in cars.

You can't really late apex it as it is pin sharp

That is corner 3 on the photo. Sorry for crap quality as this is the only one I could find quickly. Rye-House.co.uk

[BossFox]

It does originate from single seater/karting but works really well for me in cars.

It does work well, yet they never seem to teach it when you have a stint on a track day as they are too busy telling you to follow the cones...

The idea is that the car will tend to go where you look. It's the same as drifting. When you do, you should be looking where you are going.

Otherwise you do spin easier.

If you look at the apex or the gravel on the exit to make sure you miss it you do have more chance of going wrong and hitting it.

Once you get used to the vehicle it works well.

It was the only way I could get the Yeti round Bedford so quickly.

[KenONeill]

You can't really late apex it as it is pin sharp

That is corner 3 on the photo. Sorry for crap quality as this is the only one I could find quickly. Rye-House.co.uk

Oh yeah; that is a real beehatch, and not going to work for anything except karts?

[weyland]

Work up to your pace, dont go hammering into corners, you'll be slower..

Start out slow, paying attention to your lines, braking points, turn in etc.

You'll notice as the day progresses you'll have learnt you can brake later, turn in faster, you'll naturally be using points on the circuit to judge your braking.

...

Kev

+ 1. I've attended a number of trackdays and this is the best advice. Start slow, learn the circuit, don't be bullied in to carrying more speed in to corners than you are comfortable with. Once you've done a few laps you'll start remembering corners and will be more progressive and smoother with your inputs. You will natuarlly go faster by the end of the day and even more so when you have learnt the limits of the car.

Getting an instructor in the passenger seat is also well worth the money. I did this on a Javelin track day and learnt more in 30 mins that an entire weekend ona track would have taught me.

[Jabozuma]

I had instructor in a Porshe Cayman at Thruxton (the say the fastest circuit in UK) with me-I could tell he was ****ting himself a bit when we were coming to the breaking point marked by a cone - he was repeating more and more urgently "break, break, BREAK" and his knuckles were getting whiter. He stopped saying anything after the first lap . They I got into a single seater, 175 bhp ford engine and had to pull over as a BTCC driver giving a customer ride to some fella as he was not able to overtake me in his 500odd bhp Ferrari lol. He gave rather dirty look when he was driving past me.

@BossFox- exactly, not teh size of thou weapon counts but how thou uses it!

Pricks in expensive cars more often than not smell my Lupo's fragrant diesel fumes lol.

That corner 3 at Rye-House is a real biaatch-if you take it fast a late breaker goes underneath you and makes his kart the widest in existence at the exit if he knows what to do and you are screwed. You do the opposite and a third guy overtakes you both lol.