General F1 Discussion Topic . .

[Mike Wrightson]

Lewis Hamilton loses Spanish pole because of rules on fuel!!

No surprise there then! Another snip at Hamilton, going to start from the back. what does the lad have to do to beat the stewards!

His team has to ensure it obeys the rules, simple. The fuel rule was changed after Canada a couple of years back when he also stopped on circuit because his fuel was too low. I'd say that if there was a fault in the fuel rig that meant it under-filled the car, then they might have won the "force majure" argument, but there wasn't, it was human error. It was pointed out on the BBC that they could have kept the rig on for another 5 seconds to get the right level and Lewis would still have started his lap 15 seconds before the chequered flag waved. They had ample time to correct the error and they didn't.

McLaren have two of the best drivers in F1, both on top form, but when it's as close as it is right now, mistakes like this will lose them championships.

[xreyuk]

People were running out of fuel at the end of races/qualifying left right and centre last year, and NOTHING happened to them.

The stewards are full of **** and hate when it comes to Hamilton.

[Mike Wrightson]

People were running out of fuel at the end of races/qualifying left right and centre last year, and NOTHING happened to them.

The stewards are full of **** and hate when it comes to Hamilton.

No they weren't. Running out at the end of the race is different to doing it in qually anyway. If you don't finish, you got no advantage anyway and if you do, switch off sharpish, car gets recovered direct to the scrutineers and if it's legal, you are all good. I note that Kobayashi did not drive back to the pits after Q2, I don't know the reason, but the fact that he's not sharing the back row with Lewis means that it's a car fault and not running out of fuel.

In some ways Lewis made himself an easy target in the past, though he's been excellent so far this year (he was very lucky not to get penalised in Bahrain though). He pushes the boundaries, that's why we love him

EDIT: Kobayashi stopped with a hydraulics fault.

Edited 12 May, 2012 by Mike Wrightson

[occyoccyoccy]

its seems anything hamilton does he gets penalised for it yet everyone else gets away with it.

like rosberg in bahrain if that was hamilton he would have got a penalty for it without question.

and when people cause accidents or drive dangerously they get a 5 place grid penalty, mclaren make a mistake and get a 23 place grid penalty. i just wonder what they would have done if he qualified in 23rd place or somewhere back there.

I cant really defend the mistake they made though as it was a silly avoidable error. ( getting a bit commom from them now)

and rant over

[Mike Wrightson]

What I don't understand is how some teams are allowed to sit out or run a slow lap in the qualifying 3 to save a set of tyres, that to me should be a five grid penalty.

I don't agree with them doing that either, I would love to see a rule that if a car chooses not to set a time, it is penalised 10 places. Sadly this is the result of the current tyres. I don't see why they still have the 2 compounds really, it's not necessary now. Pirelli could just bring whatever tyre would give 2 or 3 stops in the race and let the drivers get on with it. They wouldn't have to cart as many tyres around then either.

[Mike Wrightson]

and when people cause accidents or drive dangerously they get a 5 place grid penalty, mclaren make a mistake and get a 23 place grid penalty. i just wonder what they would have done if he qualified in 23rd place or somewhere back there.

That's the penalty for that offence though, exclusion from qualifying, you start at the back. It's deliberately draconian to make damn sure nobody wants to break it. After all, if you had popped in some "special" fuel additive, set pole position and then "oh dear, I've run out of fuel" nobody would know you've cheated. Hence they have to have 1 litre left in the tank. They have to drive back because they are entering Parc Ferme, and it would look very silly if everyone started stopping out on track.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

he was very lucky not to get penalised in Bahrain though). He pushes the boundaries, that's why we love him

For?

[occyoccyoccy]

overtaking outside the boundaries of the track.

That's the penalty for that offence though, exclusion from qualifying, you start at the back. It's deliberately draconian to make damn sure nobody wants to break it. After all, if you had popped in some "special" fuel additive, set pole position and then "oh dear, I've run out of fuel" nobody would know you've cheated. Hence they have to have 1 litre left in the tank. They have to drive back because they are entering Parc Ferme, and it would look very silly if everyone started stopping out on track.

3

what about after races people who stop because they dont have enough fuel left? Also because he stopped on track meant that he did have enough fuel to provide a sample.

Just another reason for someone to punish hamilton yet again.

[Mike Wrightson]

It's a different rule at the end of the race. I don't know if they take fuel samples before the race or after it, the car simply has to be at the right weight at the end. And there's no requirement to drive it back.

He did have enough for a sample, but what they tightened up on was that the car has to return under its own power AND have at least 1 litre for the sample.

It's not to punish Lewis, it's just that the only 2 times it has happened, it has been Lewis's car. If Alonso had the same thing happen, for the same reason, he would be at the back of the grid just the same

Edited 12 May, 2012 by Mike Wrightson

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

Was that when Rosberg was investigated for driving him off the track? And then Alonso later?

[moley]

I understand the rule is there to prevent teams running the car low on fuel to gain an advantage. McLaren are saying they made a fuelling error, which they realised and told Hamilton to stop the car so that there was a litre of fuel for sampling. Whether it was a mistake or not we will never know, but there was sufficient fuel for a sample all be it the car did not return to the pits under it's own power.

What happens if a car completes a lap and then has a puncture or electrical failure etc and does not make it to the pits? Are they sent to the back of the grid?

Kobayashi stopped out on the track at the end of qually 2, so the car did not return to the pits under its own power and no penalty handed out.

I suppose if Maldanado takes out Alonso at the first corner Hamilton will get the blame and a drive through penalty.

[Mike Wrightson]

I understand the rule is there to prevent teams running the car low on fuel to gain an advantage. McLaren are saying they made a fuelling error, which they realised and told Hamilton to stop the car so that there was a litre of fuel for sampling. Whether it was a mistake or not we will never know, but there was sufficient fuel for a sample all be it the car did not return to the pits under it's own power.

What happens if a car completes a lap and then has a puncture or electrical failure etc and does not make it to the pits? Are they sent to the back of the grid?

Kobayashi stopped out on the track at the end of qually 2, so the car did not return to the pits under its own power and no penalty handed out.

I suppose if Maldanado takes out Alonso at the first corner Hamilton will get the blame and a drive through penalty.

A puncture or electrical failure will count as Force Majure, it could also be shown that the car had easily enough fuel to have driven back and also enough for the sample. The grid place would be retained as the team would not have broken the rules. Kobyashi had a hydraulic failure. He keeps his place.

When the mechanic went to fuel Lewis's car, he had the rig switched to remove fuel. He realised and switched it to add fuel within seconds, then the car was called out and the mechanic removed the rig. What they needed to do was leave the rig on for a few seconds to get the correct fuel load in, but they didn't. They only needed 4 seconds or so, they had easily enough time to correct the error. That's why the stewards did not accept Force Majure.

[Mike Wrightson]

Was that when Rosberg was investigated for driving him off the track? And then Alonso later?

Yes. Rosberg was not at fault. Neither Lewis nor Alonso had any part of their car alongside Rosberg when he moved to defend (he moved first BTW). As such he is entitled to move as far over as he likes. Lewis ignored that and passed beyond the track boundary, because that circuit lets them get away with it. If there had been grass or a wall there Lewis and Alonso would have gone to the other side as soon as Rosberg moved right, knowing that he could not block back the other way.

Lewis was lucky.

[occyoccyoccy]

with the lewis, rosberg incident that was just good fun racing with good driving from both sides. Alonso only started moaning because he didn't have the balls to make the move hamilton did.

I know i am biased being a hamilton fan but that is what makes him the best on the grid his fearlessness and the fact he never gives up. reminds me of senna always pushing boundaries,

[Ootohere]

Well that was a great race for Williams, then came the fire.

Which i Missed because the BBC red button did not work in my area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9QLET_u1DA

george

[Captain Scarlet]

Well indeed I thought Pastor did a great job, drove well and with some actual pace in the car. Would he have won if Lweis had been on pole, we will never know. But he deserved to win. Well done.

[PhilP1903]

Well i am personally loving this season, we have now had 5 races with 5 different drivers & manufacturers winning each race. Yes the decision to put Hamilton at the back of the grid was contravertial but an awful lot of decisions in F1 seem to be questionable. The main thing about this season is that it is exciting, entertaining and unpredicatable and it has been a long time coming. As regards the SKY subject its a darned shame but my biggest gripe is that the BBC's programs of the SKY races is highlights only.

[Coops]

Ended up watching 1992 Monaco GP last night on BBC Red Button - the one where Mansell was out in the lead by 28s for ages but then got a puncture and Senna overtook him in the pits.

There was then a titanic battle for about the last 8 laps when Mansell, clearly faster than Senna as he was on newer tyres, trying to overtake.

Was a truly classic race - pity that we're unlikely to see the same again, what with DRS, KERS et al.

Anyhow, first practice has been completed in Monaco, which is on Thursday due to BH on Friday - Alonso was fastest from Grosjean and Perez. Hamilton came in fourth.

The session was red flagged with 7 mins remaining as Heikki's Caterham engine blew up!!

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

20min into FP3 and Grosjean is looking very quick so far, first driver to drop into 1.15's. Hamilton, Alonso & Perez all following.

[moley]

Maldanado wacks into Perez, he did the same to Hamilton at Spa last year.

Again Vettel does not set a time in Q3 to save a set of super softs for the race.

I would like to see a rule change that forces every driver who makes it through to Q3 to make at least one sensible timed run or suffer a five place grid penalty.

[occyoccyoccy]

Maldanado wacks into Perez, he did the same to Hamilton at Spa last year.

Again Vettel does not set a time in Q3 to save a set of super softs for the race.

I would like to see a rule change that forces every driver who makes it through to Q3 to make at least one sensible timed run or suffer a five place grid penalty.

i cant really see the point in vettel doing that, it is so hard to overtake in monaco there is a very good chance that those fresh tyres will be wasted stuck behind everyone, but it was a very good qualyfying glad schumacher got pole. i feel he deserved it after a tough couple of seasons.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

Well well well, wasn't expecting schui to be quickest at all. Strangely after all the years of willing him to make mistakes and have problems when he was so dominant i`m now quite chuffed for him showing the doubters he still has a few tricks up his sleeve. Shame he had the penalty, would have been interesting seeing if he would have the pace to keep out in front. As said Vettel was stupid to not bother running, if there was any track that needed a decent grid position then this is it. I think it`ll all be down to the start, webber hasnt been great off the line this season so I`ll be surprised if he is still leading come the first lap.

[moley]

i cant really see the point in vettel doing that, it is so hard to overtake in monaco there is a very good chance that those fresh tyres will be wasted stuck behind everyone.

Vettel gained an advantage, because the other top nine had to start the race on the tyres they qualified on, because Vettel sat out Q3 he could choose which tyres he started on. He used the harder tyres to start and as you say overtaking is difficult he was able to run with the pack and stay out longer before changing to the soft tyre, which got him into fourth.

[occyoccyoccy]

Vettel gained an advantage, because the other top nine had to start the race on the tyres they qualified on, because Vettel sat out Q3 he could choose which tyres he started on. He used the harder tyres to start and as you say overtaking is difficult he was able to run with the pack and stay out longer before changing to the soft tyre, which got him into fourth.

I think something really needs to be done about this non-running in Q3, impose a minimum lap time say no slower than 2 tenths off what the 10th place time was in Q2. Why should drivers be able to gain an unfair advantage by not participating in Q3! If they decide not to qualify then they should have to start on a used set of whatever tyres the pole sitter is on.

[Coops]

Race was a complete bore - watched the start and basically skipped through the rest. It was great in that it produced another different winner and really mixes up the title race.