Anyone fitted a HID kit

[skippy41]

To there superb, and what recommendations for a 59 plate

[ksr]

My Recommendation......... Please don't, unless you plan to use all the OEM components required, including the automatic headlight levelling system.

Retrofits using the kits available from eBay etc are generally a pain to other road users (blinded by a Corsa with them last night); furthermore, MoT regulations are getting tighter, and testers will have no difficulty spotting the difference between a factory fitted system,and an after-market.

Fit a set of Osram NightBreaker Plus bulbs, in both your dipped and your main beam positions. They will give you all the light you need.

[ukcruiser]

i second the above - HID's Must be of projector type, have self-levelling and have washers.

Al.

[bill2]

Thats not true regarding automatic headlight levelling system and washers. my wife mk6 fiesta has had hid lights fitted by me for the last five years and have had no problems with passing the m.o.t. i also fitted one off these kits to my old mondeo at the same time no problems at all with passing the mot. and very strait forward to fit as well takes aboute one hour too fit .

bill

[ukcruiser]

Legally, they must have self levelling (or the car be) and be of projector type (or some of the old V40 volvos used glass head lamp units) and they should also have washers.

Yes, I've had them in my car a few years back, i never got stopped, BUT, i don't think i would do it again.

Here's some more info.

------

"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.

Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."

If you are found to be using lights which don't comply, in all likelihood, you may be reported to the Procurator Fiscal and may end up with a fine.

The above seems to be a precursor to the new MOT criteria slated to come into existance on New Years Eve 2011 (for 2012), this is from the MOT Testers VOSA bullitin explaining the new EU MOT regulations which were ratified this year, and includes amongst other things, the testing of wiring harnesses, the testing for illegal HID kits and, wait for it, chipped ECU's, whatever that means The article is quite long, but here is a small extract .....

"As far as changes to the test content are concerned, VOSA has already been analysing the requirements of the new Directive and working out how to implement them. We started this earlier in the year by talking with representatives of the MOT trade at our regular Trade User Group and VTS Council meetings. Both VOSA and the Department for Transport (DfT) are keen to ensure that any changes to the test are introduced in as practical a way as possible, keeping the burden on the trade to a minimum and ideally keeping the changes cost neutral.

In many cases, the changes shouldn’t necessarily lead to an increase in average test times. A good example is the malfunction indicator lamps on the dashboard that indicate defective electronic power steering, electronic stability control and secondary restraint systems. Testers already check the dashboard for other lamps, so no extra time would be required for this addition to the test.

Electrical wiring and batteries are now included in the test’s scope, but testers already check the vehicle structure where wiring is secured – often along the same routes as other testable items, such as brake pipes in the engine compartment. So again, this doesn’t look like an additional burden on the tester. In the pre-computerisation days, testers often (wrongly) failed vehicles for insecure batteries, so they must have been looking at them then! Now, it means that when we implement the new Directive, vehicles can legitimately fail for battery insecurity, for no extra tester effort.Other items – such as headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility, headlamp levelling devices and illegal engine ‘chipping’ – will need further thought before we can get a workable solution for MOT stations."

Edited 4 February, 2013 by ukcruiser

[ksr]

Bill you appear to describe how things have been. I am referring to how things will be.

From an official VOSA document: (VOSA/PSP/2167C/MARCH11)

Compared with halogen headlamps, HID lamps are more efficient, have a longer service life and are much brighter; up to three times brighter in fact. The benefit of this extra brightness is that it enables drivers using HID lights to see approximately 30% further up the road ahead than for a halogen system.

The downside of this extra brightness is the potential to cause excessive dazzle to oncoming traffic. To combat this, HID headlamps often have advanced electronics that control the shape of the headlamp beam to avoid dazzle when the car climbs or descends hills and likewise when the vehicle is accelerating or braking.

Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.

The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.

This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose.

[bill2]

if that is correct why did my wifes car pass its test in February this year and last year something is not right.

bill

[ukcruiser]

Most MOT'ers don't even know the law - we have a Private plate on mine and my mam's car - they both have the same plates, and have 3D Letters (Nto Carbon effect, and no honeycomb background etc) - the main dealer failed them - i went ballistic! took in all the paperwork, VOSA DVLA etc all saying i can have 3D letters - all they wanted was £40 for a pair of "standard" plates.

Needless to say, it passed. - And the MOT tester never even had the decency came out to see me.

Al.

[Gizmo]

I have been flashed more times in my current Superb with OE bi-xenons than I ever did in my MKI Superb with a HID kit, pick a 4,300K bulb, fit them behind projectors, make sure they are set up correctly and be sensible with the headlight level adjustment knob and all will be fine, where people go wrong is by fitting silly blue / purple tinted high kelvin bulbs and do not use the adjuster properly. Yes washers should be fitted… or you can do what I have always done and manually check your headlights are clean… even though I have OE headlight washers.

[ksr]

if that is correct why did my wifes car pass its test in February this year and last year something is not right.

bill

Hi Bill

Since the wording in my post which you refer to is copied directly from a government publication ( http://www.partinfo.... - Lighting.pdf ) , the facts as stated would appear to reflect the current legislation. The only allowance that seems to be given is for either vehicles already fitted with self-levelling suspension (some estate cars / 4x4s), or some sports and performance vehicles where a combination of firm suspension and low luggage capacity means that the vehicle beam angle is unlikely to change. This appears to be left to the testers discretion, but I cannot see it applying to the vehicles you mention.

A much more likely explanation is that since your wife's Fiesta was MoT'd in Feb. 2012, it was still in the period of grace which extended to the beginning of April,; a period given by VOSA to allow testing stations to train, and where necessary, equip their testers for the changes being brought in.

Should your wife's car pass again this month (assuming she still has it), then it will be down to a tester not doing his job properly. It happens.

[dieselV6]

Not quite accurate information here, the topic has been discussed many times (and a lot of HID kits MOTed since ).

Headlamp levelling and windscreen washers must be fully working and operational on MOT only when fitted to the car.

I.e. if you retrofit HID, the only thing that can fail your car is the beam shape / glare / headlamp aim. If you have factory HID, inoperable/damaged headlamp washers and auto levelling can also fail your car. Hopefully this clears up the confusion.

Having said that, never retrofit HID into low beam reflector type headlamps, as it will result in excessive glare. Pretty much all reflector type headlamp HID conversions that I have seen to date should have failed MOT, if they do not that's sloppy testers.

On the other hand, HIDs in low beam projector type headlamps (the ones with lens in front) work very well, usually with razor sharp cutoff (H1s and H7s, anyway, H3 projectors vary but are still way better than reflector conversions). There really is not much risk to retrofitting HIDs in projector type housing. In projectors, cutoff shape is defined by a screen, so HID can only mess up light uniformity on the lit part of the road at worst (though they rarely do).

Here and here you have more discussion on the topic. Or if you need to know more, do a search on HID in my posts.

Note that in the high beams, you can retrofit HIDs whatever headlamp type, reflector or projector. This is because you are not supposed to shine high beams into other drivers' eyes. But IMHO relays or overloading stock bulbs work better for high beams as these actually increases the range/throw, while HIDs mostly increase the amount of light close by (due to larger discharge area than halogen's filament. Also, to keep good "flash" function, make sure you fit a "rapid start" HID kit into high beams. These go to full brightness within a second or so nowadays.

I find retrofit HIDs with manual headlamp range adjustment working much better for me than the factory HIDs I used to have on Mk1 Octy. For a start, I can aim them better, cutoff is sharp enough to see where beam lands. Auto levelling in Mk1 Octavia would point headlamps into the ground whenever boot was full of luggage.

Edit: from current VOSA test notes and latest MOT manual

Annex B: List of New Testable Components

Headlamp levelling and cleaning devices when fitted for HID or LED headlamps

2. Where HID or LED dipped beam headlamps are

fitted, switch on the headlamps and check the

operation of any headlamp levelling and

cleaning devices fitted.

Also please note there are factory HIDs on the market that do not have headlamp washers/self levelling fitted. It is mostly EU manufacturers that insist on them (as Bosch has a lot to say in this market :think: )

Edited 5 February, 2013 by dieselV6

[ksr]

Not quite accurate information here, the topic has been discussed many times (and a lot of HID kits MOTed since ).

I hear what you're saying, but it conflicts with the official published VOSA position for 2012 onwards ( VOSA/PSP/2167C/MARCH11 ) as stated here: http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/MOT%20Changes%20-%20Lighting.pdf , and again here, in the parallel document for NI, http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/customer-information-notice-cars-2010.pdf .

[skippy41]

I had HIds fitted to my Octy and my wife has them fitted to her mark1 superb, both have passed many MOTs, mine being a taxi test that is much tougher.

I took mine out due to the fact that nearly every time I went to high beam one of the HIDs went out, the wife has no problem at all

Got both sets from London colour.

I am just looking for a good set not the chinese version, will be fitting night breakers to the high beam

[dieselV6]

I hear what you're saying, but it conflicts with the official published VOSA position for 2012 onwards ( VOSA/PSP/2167C/MARCH11 ) as stated here: http://www.partinfo.... - Lighting.pdf , and again here, in the parallel document for NI, http://www.nidirect....e-cars-2010.pdf .

From the very link you posted, quoted below. I know it is quite confusing, they are making it confusing on purpose.

Note legally binding doubt in the first sentence ("would need" instead of "must" or "should")

========================

Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose.

It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system. ....

Where headlamp levelling or cleaning devices are missing or defective, but there is doubt as to whether they are required, the benefit of the doubt should be given and an advisory notice issued.

==============

In summary, no fewer than 3 getaway clauses in this guide (it is not a legallly binding document) that make sure a correctly fitted HID kit that does not produce glare can be fitted.

Together with the fact that there is no mention of mandatory requirement for headlamp washers and auto levelling in the MOT manual nor in any Special Notices published in the last 2 years, retrofitted projector HIDs that do not produce glare and are aimed correctly can pass MOT. As they do.

Edit: Washers/levellers would only become mandatory if (hopefully not when ) they were explicitly listed as reason for rejection for HID/LED lamps in the MOT manual. They are not, and no Special Notice lists that as a pending change.

Edited 5 February, 2013 by dieselV6

[Richf]

HID or Xenon lights dont have to have washers or self levelling for the mot , my Skyline was mot'd last month and the tester talked to me about the recent changed (My lights are xenon as OEM and have neither function) and said how the original advice issued was misleading

NI however is slightly different , testers over there are insisting on washers for hids even if the car had none from the factory , meaning some car owners are having to rig up a system for the mot which is laughable

[bill2]

can someone put this to bed please.

bill

[dieselV6]

I thought I did here

[Richf]

can someone put this to bed please.

bill

There is no debate it's been made clear many times on the thread that hids don't need self levelling nor washers in GB but its more complicated in Northern Ireland

[skippy41]

Could we forget all the legal technicalities, are they available and do you need canbus or non canbus

Edited 6 February, 2013 by skippy41

[Richf]

Yes they are available, yes they are canbus and if you do a search you'll even find a link to some on eBay someone fitted to his passat

[skippy41]

Yes they are available, yes they are canbus and if you do a search you'll even find a link to some on eBay someone fitted to his passat

Thank you for answering the question.

As a foot note on the technicality's, I had my car over for its taxi test today and asked the vosa examiner that was there, checking my examiners work, regarding HIDs he said the info on the web site is out of date but still applies to lights without the reflectors, reflector lights fitted with HIDs will pass as long as they are aligned correctly, he said that the light leveler must be on zero before they are aligned, and that its best done at any MOT station, pleased to say the Superb passed with flying colours.

[Metblackrat]

An MOT is not a check of if a vehicle is road legal, it is a check to see if it is safe.

VOSA do not make legislation and to the average motorist, do not enforce it. They only give advice and opinion.

A police vehicle examiner under section 67 Road Traffic Act 1988 will test to see if a vehicle is road legal. A HID kit would be deemed as being illegal as it is an offence to fit a non filament bulb to a lamp designed to house a filament bulb. Self levelling of headlamp washing does not factor in this. That is whet you would be prosecuted for.

[stevehg]

I thought I did here

Unfortunately no you didn't, as you are wrong.

Here is the current situation regarding non filament headlamps in UK...

Current Law - Under 1989 Vehicle Lighting Regulations only filament headlamps are legal on UK roads

Exceptions to this law -

1. Any NEW European type approved vehicle. UK DfT accepts European Type Approval for new cars. So if a new car has been type approved for HID or LED Headlamps it is legal to use in UK

2. For retrofit, as posted by ksr above, DfT allows an exemption for vehicles fitted with e-approved headlamps designed for light source if fitted with self levelling and headlamp washers. As this is an exception it doesn't matter on the legal semantics of words like "should" etc. the Law is above and the exception wording is quite clear.

3. There appears to be a 2000 Lumen limit. If below this non filament headlamps can be legally retrofitted without self levelling and headlamp washers. I have this confirmed by VOSA in writing, still waiting for DfT to confirm. Which is the important confirmation.

As stated by Metblackrat above, MOT is an annual road worthiness check, not a test for legality of your vehicle, so if a car passes an MOT it is not suddenly legal.

So as you can see, it is currently illegal to run non filament headlamps in the UK, unless you meet one of the exemptions above.

Cheers

Steve

[dieselV6]

...and London Hackney Carriages (taxis/cabs) must carry a bale of hay and a sack of oats. Do make sure you check your cab is road legal before you board it next time in London .

It is also technically illegal to form cartels and lobby for lighting regulations to sole purpose of increased profits. Post this on Bosch and Philips forums

For a real, living, UK based person rather than a forum troll, what passes genuinely and thoroughly carried out MOT check (and does not contradict MOT manual) is legal, period. Projector HIDs will pass MOT as long as beam shape and range are correct.

There are tens of thousands of HID kits retrofitted in Europe every year, as long as they end up in projectors, there are no problems, legal or otherwise. But somehow this fact escapes you and similarly minded posters.

By the way, at least Bosch self levellers work far worse than manual headlight range control, I had factory xenons on Mk1 Octavia and despite re-adjusting the system 5+ times as per service manual, in the end I retrofitted the manual thumbwheel and hooked it up on the front levelling sensor, worked backward 3-0 but at least I could set the lights further than the front bumper when the boot was full.

Re the alleged 2000 lumen limit, here is exactly what VOSA says on the topic:

Do HID headlamps require washers / self levellers?

Headlamp washing and levelling systems are a legal requirement for high intensity discharge (HID) lamps with a luminous intensity exceeding 2,000 lumens. But unless the luminous intensity is marked on the lamp, a tester won’t be able to tell if these systems are needed.

So, they can only be rejected if they are fitted and are inoperative or obviously defective. If they are missing and you believe they should be fitted, then pass and advise.

There you are, advice note at worst.

Incidentally, these "damn all HID retrofits" posts invariably come from people who have never retrofitted HIDs, yet claim you'll be struck with a wrath of (choose your favourite deity/hero/government department here) if you dare to fit them. Sore conscience after shelling out £££s for factory HIDs perhaps? Working for car dealership and being afraid of losing profit? Or just the regular "I don't have it, so you won't have it" malice? The possibilities are endless.

I owned cars fitted with halogens, factory HIDs and retrofit HIDs, I have no financial interest in HID sales, merely a strong interest in self-preservation on 12hr+ dusk/night/dawn trips including autobahn and long stretches of woodland, over 150k miles travelled like that in the last 10 years.

I share what I learned so far, especially that it seems to have helped more than a few people over the years. You do not have to take my advice, but it seems that more than a few people did.

Over and out, if you want to travel in the dark and continue riding the high horse of nonsense, be my guest. If you want to retrofit HIDs safely, use the links I provided and search my other posts on the topic of HIDs.

Edited 14 February, 2013 by dieselV6

[stevehg]

All that to say, if you fit HID in projector headlamps you'll pass an MOT.

yawn........

The question was about legality of retrofitting HID. As has been pointed out, passing an MOT doesn't make it legal, nor does that fact that lots of other people have too. A fact you seem to struggle with.

You can do what you like about fitting them, I'm not condemning it or drawing any conclusions from that. The question was asked about legality and I've responded and pointed out that you were wrong. Nothing more

Cheers

Steve