The 280Nm was referring to the 2.0tsi engine. I wasn't referring to their lightweight 7sp DSG which can only take 250Nm.

That tiguan seems to have never been offered with the 6sp DSG, which makes me wonder if fitment is different.

It was in the UK.

A TapaTalk enabled phone was used to write this...

It was in the UK.

A TapaTalk enabled phone was used to write this...

Which year?

I looked very closely at Tiguans in 2008 and 2012. NZ in 2008 they had conventional autos which stayed until now. In Aus 2011 they went from conventional 6sp auto to 7sp wet DSG: http://www.motoring....011-range-21520

*edit*

Found a VW article here: http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/themes/2010/01/dsg_the_new_dq500.html

7sp wet box. So it's a lot stronger than the 6sp, but probably not any more efficient.

There must be a weight or fitment issues preventing it being used in smaller vehicles. Tiguan is based on the Passat, where Octavia, Yeti etc were based on the smaller Golf platform. I wonder what the MQB platform has in store?

Edited 28 April, 201313 yr by Kiwibacon

You can bet whatever you like that VAG are working on a transverse DSG that is both stronger and more efficient than the wet 6sp. Right now their gearboxes are both limiting engine torque and raising CO2 figures. Two of the easiest things for consumers to compare for their new car purchases.

This is confusing territory. I would have agreed with this analysis except that perusing the current Tiguan brochure, it has 2.0 Petrol TSI 210PS/280Nm with no difference in CO2 between manual and DSG (199) and only a 1% drop in nominal combined MPG for the DSG (33.2 vs 32.8). The latter is a difference admittedly but an absolutely minimal one. (Not quite sure why the MPG falls if only nominally but the CO2 doesn't, but that's what the numbers say.) This is the 7-speed DSG, presumably the wet one, but maybe they've managed to refine it to reduce power losses?

Then the 4x4 Q3 has presumably a very similar engine except it gives 211PS (I guess Audi have literally to go one better) and 300Nm and they quote a CO2 of 179 with DSG! (No manual option for comparison.) What clever things have Audi done to shave 10% off the CO2? The Q3 does have Stop-start as standard - maybe that's the difference? Sad to say it, but the Yeti is getting left behind in this company though obviously not comparing like with like pricewise.

educe power losses?

Then the 4x4 Q3 has presumably a very similar engine except it gives 211PS (I guess Audi have literally to go one better) and 300Nm and they quote a CO2 of 179 with DSG! (No manual option for comparison.) What clever things have Audi done to shave 10% off the CO2? The Q3 does have Stop-start as standard - maybe that's the difference? Sad to say it, but the Yeti is getting left behind in this company though obviously not comparing like with like pricewise.

I want this engine in a a yeti :lol:

I would have thought that this was a transverse box and not a longitudinal box, as the cars are primarily front wheel drive like the Yeti.

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This is confusing territory. I would have agreed with this analysis except that perusing the current Tiguan brochure, it has 2.0 Petrol TSI 210PS/280Nm with no difference in CO2 between manual and DSG (199) and only a 1% drop in nominal combined MPG for the DSG (33.2 vs 32.8). The latter is a difference admittedly but an absolutely minimal one. (Not quite sure why the MPG falls if only nominally but the CO2 doesn't, but that's what the numbers say.) This is the 7-speed DSG, presumably the wet one, but maybe they've managed to refine it to reduce power losses?

Then the 4x4 Q3 has presumably a very similar engine except it gives 211PS (I guess Audi have literally to go one better) and 300Nm and they quote a CO2 of 179 with DSG! (No manual option for comparison.) What clever things have Audi done to shave 10% off the CO2? The Q3 does have Stop-start as standard - maybe that's the difference? Sad to say it, but the Yeti is getting left behind in this company though obviously not comparing like with like pricewise.

I suspect Skoda is the clearing house for older VAG engines and parts.

I suspect Skoda is the clearing house for older VAG engines and parts.

I suspect in these days of competitive markets and build-to-order there is no such thing as a "clearing house" for things like engines and transmissions.

[Off-topic: I had a tour of the BMW Mini UK assembly plant last week - fascinating to see the supply chains all meet for final assembly. Recommended. Presumably the Skoda and other plants are similar...]

I suspect Skoda is the clearing house for older VAG engines and parts.

Do you honestly think in this day and age there is a factory somewhere spewing out engines willy nilly with absolutely no regard to where they will be used?! Come on! Very, very few cars are made these these without an owner already having paid the deposit. The days of fields of unsold cars waiting for owners are well and truly over. Hence most of us wait months for a bespoke car. So in this just-in-time business model engines, gear levers, bumpers and every last grommet and bolt in your car is made and is delivered to the assembly plant mere hours before they are needed.

So there are no old VAG engines lying around anywhere to be used up in Škodas I'm afraid. What you see here is the marketing departments at work. For an Audi or VW to be seen worth that extra money (over a humble Škoda) they have to offer "something" more. That is it. Škoda has to be seen to be offering less unfortunately and are offering the engines and gearboxes they do for a very good reason: to make Audi and VW's look better and worth the extra money.

"On Demand" parts supply in car manufacture is now very common.

I was told that on the Freelander/Jag line at Halewood/Speke a part can arrive on a lorry and be fitted to a car within half an hour of it's delivery!

That is an impressive line to see; Freelanders and Jag saloons mixed together on the same line, sometimes using the same welding machines, all "instructed" from a bar code fitted to the side of the vehicle.

For an Audi or VW to be seen worth that extra money (over a humble Škoda) they have to offer "something" more. That is it. Škoda has to be seen to be offering less unfortunately and are offering the engines and gearboxes they do for a very good reason: to make Audi and VW's look better and worth the extra money.

Agreed.

Although Škoda use older components, these are at least proven parts hopefully with all the foibles sorted

Although Škoda use older components, these are at least proven parts hopefully with all the foibles sorted

Absolutely true - and why Skodas are such good value and so reliable. The very latest technology is seldom the most reliable, so being 'one behind', as it were, is a good thing.

Do you honestly think in this day and age there is a factory somewhere spewing out engines willy nilly with absolutely no regard to where they will be used?!

Isn't that overstating the point though? I can well believe that when a new production line for say 7-speed high-efficiency DSG gearboxes is set up that it has a finite capacity, either in its own throughput or in the supply of component parts. Only when all the DSG production lines have been upgraded will the total output be of the latest DSG type.

In the meantime, VAG overall will have a mix of types and presumably the premium brands get first refusal of the latest spec boxes. So this is nothing directly to do with JIT.

Do you honestly think in this day and age there is a factory somewhere spewing out engines willy nilly with absolutely no regard to where they will be used?! Come on!

Nope, which is why I claimed nothing of the sort.

Very, very few cars are made these these without an owner already having paid the deposit. The days of fields of unsold cars waiting for owners are well and truly over. Hence most of us wait months for a bespoke car. So in this just-in-time business model engines, gear levers, bumpers and every last grommet and bolt in your car is made and is delivered to the assembly plant mere hours before they are needed.

Waiting for a car is actually a rare thing these days. Most cars are built to a range of factory spec and literally sit around in distribution centres waiting to be shipped out. I have been past the Honda distribution centre in NZ several times. It is literally hectares of new cars prebuilt.

The Yeti is a rare exception here. Is it due to exceptional demand for bespoke cars or is it simply managed supply to keep the frenzy running?

Skoda will be doing just this with the Octavia 3. Remember they were built and hit the showrooms about the same time orders were taken.

So there are no old VAG engines lying around anywhere to be used up in Škodas I'm afraid. What you see here is the marketing departments at work. For an Audi or VW to be seen worth that extra money (over a humble Škoda) they have to offer "something" more. That is it. Škoda has to be seen to be offering less unfortunately and are offering the engines and gearboxes they do for a very good reason: to make Audi and VW's look better and worth the extra money.

The BMM tdi was used in the Audi A3 and the Octavia 4x4/Scout. The audi was built with that engine from about 2003 to 2007. The scouts were still being pushed out 2 years later with that engine.

Once the costs for the production line are covered, the cost of poking out a few thousand extra engines for Skodas becomes not much more than the power, wages and materials to run the plant. They can keep a line running and save plenty of money on slightly older gear as long as it's not hindering new production.

Edited 1 May, 201313 yr by Kiwibacon

Waiting for a car is actually a rare thing these days. Most cars are built to a range of factory spec and literally sit around in distribution centres waiting to be shipped out. I have been past the Honda distribution centre in NZ several times.

I think you got the gist of what I was saying...

As to NZ... erm... it really is not how the world car manufacturing model works. NZ is a very, very, very isolated case and being so far from the factory source will of course have many more cars built to an importer's spec and then sold (after sitting in a yard somewhere for who knows how long). What I was on about is the standard European model of most cars being built to order these days.

As to engines and gearboxes and production runs. What I said still stands. Škoda will ALWAYS get the second best as that is just how it is and where the marketing people are pitching Škoda. If you want the lowest CO2 emissions and the newest gearbox you better pay thousands more and walk to your nearest VW or Audi dealer.

I think you got the gist of what I was saying...

As to NZ... erm... it really is not how the world car manufacturing model works. NZ is a very, very, very isolated case and being so far from the factory source will of course have many more cars built to an importer's spec and then sold (after sitting in a yard somewhere for who knows how long). What I was on about is the standard European model of most cars being built to order these days.

Except for the majority of the cars which are built to fill dealers show-rooms, built to standard specs (sport, elegance, ambience, blackline) etc. Do you have figures on the % of cars that are built bespoke?

As to engines and gearboxes and production runs. What I said still stands. Škoda will ALWAYS get the second best as that is just how it is and where the marketing people are pitching Škoda. If you want the lowest CO2 emissions and the newest gearbox you better pay thousands more and walk to your nearest VW or Audi dealer.

Did you know the Skoda/Audi/VW dealers here are all the same? Offering the different brands to fill different niches, but all sold and serviced in the same places. Yeti's and Tiguans on the floor beside each other.

Very close to another Troll!

Another one for the list!

Fred

The "majority of the cars which are built to fill dealers show-rooms, built to standard specs (sport, elegance, ambience, blackline) etc" is not true in the UK, nor in most of Europe!! Most dealers in the UK have probably less than 5 vehicles on display and possibly 1 demo model. Certainly when I was a Sinclair Skoda, one of the largest dealers in Wales, 2 months ago they had:

1 x Superb

1 x Fabia

1 x Octavia Estate

1 x Rapid

1 x Citygo

Outside was an unregistered Yeti.

There were NO stocks of vehicles in the compound other than those sold. Economically it is not practical for dealers to pre-order stock nowadays.

What happens in NZ is not the same as happens here or in Europe.

The "majority of the cars which are built to fill dealers show-rooms, built to standard specs (sport, elegance, ambience, blackline) etc" is not true in the UK, nor in most of Europe!!

If you read that more carefully, you would notice those are UK model specs.

Most dealers in the UK have probably less than 5 vehicles on display and possibly 1 demo model. Certainly when I was a Sinclair Skoda, one of the largest dealers in Wales, 2 months ago they had:

1 x Superb

1 x Fabia

1 x Octavia Estate

1 x Rapid

1 x Citygo

Outside was an unregistered Yeti.

And what do you think they do when they sell one of them? Order a new bespoke model from Mlada Bolesav with a 3 month wait?

Nope. They get Skoda to send a pre-built replacement from their warehouse.

I thought the whole dealer/distributor thing was obvious and didn't need explanation. Apparently I assumed too much.

And what do you think they do when they sell one of them? Order a new bespoke model from Mlada Bolesav with a 3 month wait

.

Correct.

A TapaTalk enabled phone was used to write this...

They get Skoda to send a pre-built replacement from their warehouse.

I thought the whole dealer/distributor thing was obvious and didn't need explanation. Apparently I assumed too much.

Sorry but YOU assume too much. The car they replace these with were ordered three or four, maybe even six months before.

Yes, SUK and any UK importer pre order some cars. Of course they do. To satisfy a limited amount of people that walk into the door to get a car there and then. I bought my Audi that way. But on the whole (in Europe! Not NZ as I don't dare assume things of a country I don't live in) the bulk of cars (including the show room cars) are pre ordered months before delivery. That is why sometimes a car will sit on the dealer floor with a sold sign on it since the dealer can't let it go (even though he sold it) until the next pre ordered demo arrives.

Just go to the Škoda second hand section on their website. Look at the demos on sale there. They all give a specific date in the FUTURE that they will be available to buy at. Why? Because that is the due date of the next pre-ordered demo. Not exactly rocket science.

Sorry but YOU assume too much. The car they replace these with were ordered three or four, maybe even six months before.

Which is exactly my point. These are pre-built stock. They are not bespoke cars built to customer orders.

Yes, SUK and any UK importer pre order some cars. Of course they do. To satisfy a limited amount of people that walk into the door to get a car there and then.

And the number of vehicles sitting around pre-built is calculated to just meet demand between shipments and leave the minimum of cars sitting around. Simple inventory management.

I bought my Audi that way. But on the whole (in Europe! Not NZ as I don't dare assume things of a country I don't live in) the bulk of cars (including the show room cars) are pre ordered months before delivery. That is why sometimes a car will sit on the dealer floor with a sold sign on it since the dealer can't let it go (even though he sold it) until the next pre ordered demo arrives.

You are claiming two different things in that section.

First that the bulk of cars are special order. This is what I would like to see some hard figures on.

Then that dealers are replacing showroom stock (pre-built, not special order) with other pre-built (not special order) models. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

If you read that more carefully, you would notice those are UK model specs.

And? That was a direct "cut and paste" from your posting at #39!

And what do you think they do when they sell one of them? Order a new bespoke model from Mlada Bolesav with a 3 month wait?

Nope. They get Skoda to send a pre-built replacement from their warehouse.

How much do you actually know about the car sales situation in the UK and Europe?

Having been involved both directly and indirectly with the UK business for some 30 years, with friends who are or have been Skoda Area Sales Managers or other Franchise directors I can assure you that there are no "warehouses" of cars here anymore. A dealer may sell a model from the showroom, but that is actually quite rare as they mostly go as demo models and then get sold "on spec" like mine. They do not "order" a showroom model from Skoda but are told what they will have, what spec, what colour and when it can be dispossed of, normally within 3 months.

I thought the whole dealer/distributor thing was obvious and didn't need explanation. Apparently I assumed too much.

What a patronising comment!

How much do you actually know about the car sales situation in the UK and Europe?

Having been involved both directly and indirectly with the UK business for some 30 years, with friends who are or have been Skoda Area Sales Managers or other Franchise directors I can assure you that there are no "warehouses" of cars here anymore. A dealer may sell a model from the showroom, but that is actually quite rare as they mostly go as demo models and then get sold "on spec" like mine. They do not "order" a showroom model from Skoda but are told what they will have, what spec, what colour and when it can be dispossed of, normally within 3 months.

Graham, there are no facts at all in your post, just a reiteration that you know best.

Answer this question:

When a dealer needs to replace a sold show-room model, where does that car come from and how long do they have to wait?

And you will see the problem with your argument that no stock is held.

What a patronising comment!

Quite accurate though.

The replacement is ordered from the factory!!

Can't be bothered any more, as you are obviously an expert on everything!

The UK dealers seem to have their showroom cars for 3 months or so. They can choose what they want sometimes, as my dealer has told me that they can. I think with new releases they are given a fixed model and spec, and quite often all dealers end up with the same colour/spec. But after that they appear to be able to chose what they want in stock.

For example, in some parts of the country some dealers sell lots of S spec Yeti, whereas another area sells lots of Elegance because that is what they have on the shop floor.

The dealer put their own order in the system just like my order for my car, and they have to wait for it to come through, which is why when I ordered mine, Yeti were as rare as hens teeth and many dealers didn't have any to sell as they were waiting 4-6 months for delivery.

While I was waiting for mine to arrive I was offered a couple by my dealer, that they had ordered but I didn't like the spec or colour, so waited for mine.

The salesman was placing orders, but if they were not allocated to a buyer, any Skoda dealer could nick it if they had somebody who wanted it. Which happened a few times I was told.

They weren't supposed to sell their demo/showroom vehicle until there was a replacement, as they are supposed to keep one of each model.

Note no facts :lol:

A TapaTalk enabled phone was used to write this...

He is back then

That make 2 on my f idiots list