It is sometimes cheaper to buy four at a time. Event tyres give 20 quid off if you buy four and Costco sometimes do a buy-three-get-one-free deal.

Just saying

Well the argumnet of best tread on the front or rear will go on for many a year with lots of opinions.

In 25 years of driving lots of different cars I have always fitted the best tread to the driven wheels,

So for me the best tread goes to the back on a RWD and to the front on a FWD and I have never had a problem in over 750,000 miles of driving.

My suggestion to the OP would be that if you want to swap them over then do it yourself.

Its not a hard job and all you need to do is fit the spare to 1 wheel and then swap them around.

Even for a novice it should take no more the an hour and that would be taking your time with the factory jack.

... My suggestion to the OP would be that if you want to swap them over then do it yourself.

Its not a hard job and all you need to do is fit the spare to 1 wheel and then swap them around.

Even for a novice it should take no more the an hour and that would be taking your time with the factory jack.

Agree.

Its a right pain doing it with the spare wheel kit jack - the thing is weak an probably won't last long. When I swapped mine I had to jack the car six times in all. It was quite hard work.

If I used a bottle or trolley jack can I just jack up one side of the car and swap the wheels over without having to trouble the spare? What sort of jack would I need?

I would go and get a cheap trolley jack. Worthwhile investment, but don't spend too much - it won't need to withstand the heavy everyday use a professional trolley jack is designed for.

Just check its min and max heights. You decide what castors / wheels / swivelling top / overall size you need to give you the convenience and maneuverability you want and what pump / handle / raise/lower convenience you want. Can't recommend any particular make / model / supplier (bought mine 40+ years ago) but no doubt others here can.

Using a sold plank of wood under cill and you should be able to jack up one side at a time.

Usual cautions: ensure other wheels are securely chocked and never work actually underneath the car without proper axle stands in place.

... In 25 years of driving lots of different cars I have always fitted the best tread to the driven wheels,

So for me the best tread goes to the back on a RWD and to the front on a FWD and I have never had a problem in over 750,000 miles of driving.

That's what I always used to do.

However after 50+ years of driving and car ownership I now take the current advice of tyre manufacturers and fitters and fit the tyres with the best tread on the rear regardless of which wheels are driven.

A highly-experienced friend of mine (who also drives an emergency response vehicle as part of his job) was startled a few years ago when - while driving quite gently in his front-wheel-drive family people-carrier - he suddenly went off the road backwards when he hit a slightly greasy patch whilst going round a not-particularly sharp bend.

He, like I used to, had the half-worn tyres on the back and the better tyres on the front. He doesn't now.

Have found the rears wear so little by comparison but also concious that its possible to leave them on a car for several years and lots of miles which can also prove a bit dangerous.

I tend to replace my fronts, leave the rears then replace all four next time the fronts need replacing, effectively replacing two set of fronts for every set of rears.

Im also a bit funny about mixing brands and tread patterns so try to keep all four tyres on the car exactly the same make and model.

At the end of the day a decent tyre for a vRS is in the 120-140 marker; not cheap but nothing like the near 300 quid/tyre my old man has to shell out for on his A5 (255/35 r19's); its the one thing that keeps the car in contact with the road so think any skimping with tyres isnt worth risking life and limb over.

As it happens bought my wife a 57 plate Astra 1.6 Design a while ago and that had 4 new Kenda tyres on it; wouldnt have been what id have fitted but at least they were all brand new which is the main thing; also hardly a performance car so not a major drama.

Have found the rears wear so little by comparison but also concious that its possible to leave them on a car for several years and lots of miles which can also prove a bit dangerous.

Which is why, on my old front-wheel-drive shed, I fit the new tyres on the rear and move the part-worn rears to the front.

That way, all tyres get rotated and don't die of old age. (It also has the advantage that the better tyres are always on the rear.)

The previous owner clearly had just replaced the front tyres as and when when they wore out. Not long after I aquired the car, I started to notice a very slight "wobble" from the rear end whenever I came to a gentle halt. Examining the rear tyres, the tread did not look at all worn but when you looked closely you could see that the tread was 'running out' - the carcase of the tyres had failed and become distorted. And they were Michelins, not some cheapo rubbish. So the rear tyres, which had presumably been on there for ages, hadn't worn out in the conventioanl way - they had died of old age. Could have been dodgy if I hadn't noticed the problem.

On a car with more performance or a newer car which I cared about, yes, I'd prefer to have a matching set so I'd swap 'em front-to-rear ever 6,000 miles or so to even the wear and allow me to replace all four at once. Around 6,000-mile intervals seems a reasonable compromise between letting the difference in wear between the front and rear wear become significant, or spending every week-end swapping wheels around.

Works for me.

Which is why, on my old front-wheel-drive shed, I fit the new tyres on the rear and move the part-worn rears to the front.

That way, all tyres get rotated and don't die of old age. (It also has the advantage that the better tyres are always on the rear.)

That's a good way of doing it. Spreads the new tyre cost out as well cos you're only buying two at a time.

Running costs are dominated by fuel anyway. Eg fuel: ~10p/mile Tyres: ~1p/mile

... Running costs are dominated by fuel anyway. Eg fuel: ~10p/mile Tyres: ~1p/mile

True: on average fuel £1,000 / year, tyres £100 / year.

But fuel is fuel, wheras there is a wide choice of tyres at a wide range of prices. Over-expensive tyres can be a ripoff and bad tyres can be dangerous or at least noisy, uncomfortable and leave you with unpleasant handling,

Running costs are dominated by fuel anyway. Eg fuel: ~10p/mile Tyres: ~1p/mile

Normally yes. But there are car/tyre combinations where rubber can rival fuel.

For example (we get rogered for rubber here in NZ) 21" Q7 tyres cost $NZD2000 for a set of four. Good for a bit over 20,000km (21" tyres are pretty soft and very sensitive to alignment and pressure).

That gives you a tyre cost of $NZ0.1 per km.

If you could get the Q7 down to 8 litres/100km at $NZ1.50 per litre then you're talking $NZ0.12 per km.

There are also very soft/sticky performance tyres which won't do more than 10,000km on a car.

we get rogered for rubber here in NZ

Safety first!

Always favoured rotation myself - you know front to back etc. (Think I'll leave the one in The boot for someone else - never used it.)

And never just a pair - always 4.

Safety first!

Always favoured rotation myself - you know front to back etc. (Think I'll leave the one in The boot for someone else - never used it.)

And never just a pair - always 4.

Seems a reasonably sensible policy.

At what inteval do you rotate your tyres?

When you buy a new set of tyres, do you keep one of the "old" set each time to use as a spare, and discard the previous spare?

If not, there is a risk of the spare dying of old age and becoming useless.

I have an alloy spare, so yes, I will put the best of the wheels to be changed in the boot and change the spare out for a fresh one.

Seems a reasonably sensible policy.

At what inteval do you rotate your tyres?

When you buy a new set of tyres, do you keep one of the "old" set each time to use as a spare, and discard the previous spare?

If not, there is a risk of the spare dying of old age and becoming useless.

I've got a vehicle here, 93 build and the original spare is in the back. Still in excellent condition at 20 years old.

Going by the machinery around here, 30 years of 24-7 exposure to the elements is when tyres really start to die of old age. 10 years out of sunlight in the boot of a car is not a problem. At 20 years you'd want to inspect them carefully. At 30 years you'd be dreaming.

Seems a reasonably sensible policy.

At what inteval do you rotate your tyres?

When you buy a new set of tyres, do you keep one of the "old" set each time to use as a spare, and discard the previous spare?

If not, there is a risk of the spare dying of old age and becoming useless.

I think it may be the sunnier warmer weather, but I always like to change over in Spring. I feel better contact which makes for a better driving experience especially pushing hard into corners or braking just at the last moment.

I always keep the old set on standby for thrashing on a track day or similar.. Its good to make them squeal when they're hot.

I'm also an advocate of a different setup for winter where a softer compound allows for a better grip right from the off and without having to warm them up. Be careful though as it can get very slippy, particularly where the path has been well used - unlike virgin snow. Steer clear of anything overtrafficed as there is a good chance of catching a rim on a pothole.

The tyres with the most tread should be on the rear.

Depends on whether you prefer under or over steer. I get why it's recommended the new ones go on the rear, but personally I prefer the rear to let go first.

I think the recommendations are to prevent those who change 2 tyres at a time from ending up with nearly bald tyres on the back and new on the front and therefore unpredictable handling. If you rotate and therefore have all four tyres at roughly the same level then I don't think this would be a problem as all four wheels would have similar levels of grip and therefore slide together making the handling predictable.

Depends on whether you prefer under or over steer. I get why it's recommended the new ones go on the rear, but personally I prefer the rear to let go first.

Many people imagine a gentle, controllable "drift" as the rear lets go progressively.

Apparently it ain't like that. In normal driving conditions on public roads, if the back does let go unexpectedly (as distinct from when deliberately provoked and you might be ready to try to catch it), it will let go completley and very suddenly indeed and you will promptly go off the road backwards. (Why do you think even top F1 drivers spin occasionally?) Most crash protection, crumple zones and airbag sytems offer their best protection in frontal impacts, and I'd prefer to see what it is that I'm about to hit.

The only time I have ever spun a car on a public road (a Morris minor, would you believe!) it happened so fast that I didn't even see what happened - I just suddenly found myself facing the opposite direction. There was abslolutely no warning whatsoever.

It isn't about "slip angles". This is a misnomer - the so-called "slip angle" relates to the degree of squirming or distortion of the tyre carcase and tread when the car is subject to cornering forces and the tyre in not actually "slipping". Slip angle is related to (among other things) tyre pressue, which is the easiest thing to change if you want to modify the amount of understeer. (All road cars understeer - they would be directionally unstable otherwise and at best very tiring to drive, if not downright uncontrollable - but of course you can reduce this if you want by putting more air in the front and less in the rear tyres, provided you don't mind the effect this might have on the evenness of the tyre wear.)

The slip angle is the difference between the direction the tyre is pointing and the direction it is actually going. "Stiff" tyres can have a low slip angle but stll let go (skid) at quite low cornering forces. Other tyres - particularly older, crossply tyres - can have quite high slip angles but they can still "hold on" at quite high cornering forces before actually "letting go" completley. Such tyres are more "progressive" since you get more warning before they lose grip, and that is why some drivers of sports cars - particularly older, classic cars such as the E-type Jaguar, which was origianlly designed to run on crossply tyres - sometimes prefer them.

So, in summary, the point at which a tyre loses grip and skids is not the same as its slip angle and you definitely do not want the back to let go - which may well happen very suddenly, with little or no warning - before the front.

I think the recommendations are to prevent those who change 2 tyres at a time from ending up with nearly bald tyres on the back and new on the front and therefore unpredictable handling. If you rotate and therefore have all four tyres at roughly the same level then I don't think this would be a problem as all four wheels would have similar levels of grip and therefore slide together making the handling predictable.

Agree completely.

That's what I always used to do.

However after 50+ years of driving and car ownership I now take the current advice of tyre manufacturers and fitters and fit the tyres with the best tread on the rear regardless of which wheels are driven.

A highly-experienced friend of mine (who also drives an emergency response vehicle as part of his job) was startled a few years ago when - while driving quite gently in his front-wheel-drive family people-carrier - he suddenly went off the road backwards when he hit a slightly greasy patch whilst going round a not-particularly sharp bend.

He, like I used to, had the half-worn tyres on the back and the better tyres on the front. He doesn't now.

I can see your reasons and have no problem with them.

I doubt the situation of hitting a greasy patch would not be solved with more tread on the tyres as they would most likley still have given way.

I think the main reason for the current advice is for when you are driving through standing water which is deeper than the tread depth of your tyres.

I can also understand why as the amount of drivers i see on the Motorways driving like its a summer day when its bouncing down with rain beggers belief.

I always drive to the conditions the weather will allow if its raining hard i slow down.

I drive 2-300 miles a day in all weathers on all types of roads throughout the north of the country and have no issues.

As for the advice of the tyre fitters well I will take that with a pinch of salt after so called professional fitters trashed a set of alloy just fitting remould a few years ago and that was the boss of the company. And I have lost count of the stories I have heard of them useing air guns to tighten the bolts of alloy wheels and locking nuts but thats a different issue.

But its down to personal choice.

Many people imagine a gentle, controllable "drift" as the rear lets go progressively.

And some know exactly what to expect because they have explored the limits of the car.

Apparently it ain't like that. In normal driving conditions on public roads, if the back does let go unexpectedly (as distinct from when deliberately provoked and you might be ready to try to catch it), it will let go completley and very suddenly indeed and you will promptly go off the road backwards.

Not entirely true. Modern cars don't have this tendency to spin suddenly, particularly front wheel drive. They don't just spin out of control unless you're pushing. A car is only going to slide at either end if you're driving too fast for the conditions, so you should therefore always be ready for it.

Anyway like I said, my personal preference is for the rear to let go first. I hate an understeery car. Shame it's the way manufacturers tend to set them up.

Certainly agree with your comments about motorway speeds.

Which is why I disagree with blanket speed limits.

For many drivers, what this leads to is the belief that "... the speed you should drive at is what the speed limit says" - even if there is fog / mist / spray / standing water etc. Dur.

But in a way you can't blame them for ignoring the conditions, if the authorities also ignore the conditions by prosecuting people for breaking the 70mph speed limit on a completely deserted straight motorway in fine, dry, clear weather.

_ _ _

But to get back on-topic: the advice I was referring to regarding best-tyre-placement was the official, printed info from tyre fitting chains and tyre manufactuers, on leaflets and on posters. Not hearsay or chat from the tyre fitting gorrillas.

And some know exactly what to expect because they have explored the limits of the car.

Not entirely true. Modern cars don't have this tendency to spin suddenly, particularly front wheel drive. They don't just spin out of control unless you're pushing. A car is only going to slide at either end if you're driving too fast for the conditions, so you should therefore always be ready for it.

Yes but the vast majority of the general public haven't explored the limits of the car and don't know what to do when in a spin and don't expect things to go wrong in the way that they can.

Therefore this advice about tyre placement is for the general motorist, and those that know what they are doing can choose to ignore it and go with their own preferences safe in the knowledge they are ready for what they know might happen and are experienced in controlling it when it does.

As with all health and safety the recommendations are only there for those that don't know any better.

Yes but the vast majority of the general public haven't explored the limits of the car and don't know what to do when in a spin and don't expect things to go wrong in the way that they can.

Therefore this advice about tyre placement is for the general motorist, and those that know what they are doing can choose to ignore it and go with their own preferences safe in the knowledge they are ready for what they know might happen and are experienced in controlling it when it does.

As with all health and safety the recommendations are only there for those that don't know any better.

Sorry but I disagree.

If your car does spin you won't be able to do anything about it. "Knowing what to do in a spin" doesn't come into it. Even in F1, when you spin you spin. You're off the side of the track and into the tyre wall.

Like I said earlier, many people have a fantasy about the rear end just drifting out in a graceful manner and them being able to control it. It doesn't usually happen like that. If the back end lets go it will be sudden and unexpected and you will be off the road backwards before you've realised what happened.

The advice about tyre placement applies to everyone, the cautious as well as those who like to push their luck, the experienced and knowlegeable as well as the inexperienced. And people are not always as knowlegeable as they might like to think, as the misunderstanding of what "slip angles" are all about demonstrates.

However it is advice. It is not a rule and it is not law and many people do not follow the advice - some because they are unaware of the advice, some because they disagree with it. Fair enough - your choice!

Edited 22 June, 201312 yr by Stuarted