Hi,

 

My 60 plated 1.6CR Elegance 75bhp is out of warranty very soon so am looking to get it remaped and of course at the same time get the pain in the arse DPF removed. Can anybody tell me if there are any compaies in the NW of england who do this.

 

Ta

Hudson, slightly lengthy post and some will disagree because they don't have the facts. Induction and exhaust tuning and oily bits are my domain and the area I've been working in for some time. I understand why you may want to remove the DPF. But you are unlikely to have problems with it if left in place even if you tune your car. Most don't have problems and very few people ever have to replace it. Remember, you will be removing the CAT as well which will further pollute the rest of us, and you. The DPF and CAT are there for a reason. That is to protect our lungs and yours from the extremely dangerous completely unseen micro particulate matter in modern CR engined diesel cars. This micro particulate matter was not present in older non CR engined diesel cars. So although smokier, the emissions from older diesels were actually less harmful. Particulate matter form older engines was not micro particulate matter and your lungs could self clean it out of your body without a problem. However, removing the DPF on a CR engined car is a very very anti-social and dangerous thing to do and may be illegal even under existing law. DOT and the various bodies who manage the statutes say it is likely illegal but so far don't seem to have challenged it as in the past only very few people have been doing it. However, now the threat level to human health is rising fast from DPF removal and it is now seen as a wider problem.  It just needs someone to challenge it in court to make a precedent. However, it WILL very definitely be illegal very soon and you will likely have to replace it according to the meetings and seminars I've been to in the last year as legislation is coming to prevent removal and force compliance to original specs. New emission control tests are going to be introduced at some point in the future to police this. Heavy fines are being proposed for anyone found driving without the DPF. That's the future. And quite rightly so. Why? It isn't just smoke the DPF prevents. That's the only emissions test for diesels at MOT and removal of the DPF won't normally stop it passing its' smoke test.  However, the machines used on the MOT cannot 'see' the most harmful particulate matter coming from a DPF removed car.

 

I have been working in engine development over the last 18 months on a new engine. Running it on the bench under load without a DPF caused the engine to emit up to 680% more particulate matter in repeated tests, over and above it's normal output with a DPF. The DPF will remove around 80% of matter under normal conditions. This particulate matter is extremely dangerous to human health as the particulates are so small they are inhaled and become 'stuck' in the lungs and chest linings where the immune system attacks them and seals them in. Your bodies own self cleaning process for the lungs cannot then take place and the particulate matter remains in your body for life, however long that is!  Because the particulates contain harmful hydrocarbons and other chemicals such as naturally occurring benzine, over time this causes tumours and other chest problems. This can happen quickly or over a longer period of time depending on exposure. It's been likened to inhaling asbestos. Very harmful. 

 

Just you removing your DPF will not make a huge difference to the state of the air quality in the places you drive I suspect. But you will be contributing to a big rising problem. I would urge you to think again about removal of the DPF, removing the CAT alone would be bad enough. The companies that remove the DPF's seem largely unaware of the problems and where they do know about it make light of it or deny it. After all they get £250-350 for doing it. It's easy money! But the dangers are true. You only need to do your own research on the health implications to see the problem. You can also apply for an environmental report for any city on air quality to see the hugely increasing amount of dangerous particulate matter form diesel engines. 

If every driver removed their filters then that's a valid point.

 

There's really only going to be a handful or people doing this so the impact is negligible?

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just adding another point of view.

 

Can of worms, opened!

Blimey............the post two above makes it sound like we'd all be better off living in Syria

 

It would be interesting to see some figures to back up the scaremongering claims

No idea, but they're there for a reason and not just to be a pain in the rear...like Cats were/are.

 

Do you NEED to de-DPF to gain in tuning terms, like I think you do need to de-cat for petrols? Or is it just removal in case it goes wrong in the future (and they don't all go wrong, same as not all early cats went wrong).

 

Given the govts love of over taxing diesel and the fitment of DPFs to make diesels "cleaner" and lower road tax etc, I could see it as logical that they would enforce fitment and potentially check, but how long would it take for that to come in?

Blimey............the post two above makes it sound like we'd all be better off living in Syria

 

It would be interesting to see some figures to back up the scaremongering claims

It's not scare mongering...it's true. I cannot publish our figures as they are not mine to publish and I no longer have access to the data as my part in the project is over. The tests are continuing on the road now as I understand it. However, there has been a lot written about it in technical articles and in magazines. It's not new information and is well known in the trade. I dare say if you google it you will find what you are looking for. There is a wealth of information about how harmful the micro particulate matter is from diesels. It's a bit scary and why the dpf's were introduced. What surprised me was the massive increase in micro particulates when driven under load. Smoke tests don't produce these particulates and cannot be seen during the MOT. 

 

Whether you need to remove a combined cat and dpf unit to tune a car is debatable and depends on what level of tuning you may want to do. Most people are sensible and don't come anywhere near needing to remove the cat/dpf. 

 

Discussions and initial consultations are happening, and papers are already being drawn up. It will be 2016 onwards as I understand it but there is no precise date yet as far as I know but someone else may know otherwise. The government has been concentrating on new motorcycle laws but is now moving forward on items like this. These rules already exist in the States and many other countries. It has to happen because of pending new Euro rules too. But there will be new equipment needed I expect for MOT stations and time must be given for them to obtain such items. Then the legislation must be passed into law so it's not an overnight thing. I'm not now involved in any of that as I'm slowing down and will only be working on private projects from now on. But all very interesting and a good thing in my view. 

Edited 9 September, 201312 yr by Estate Man

http://www.dpfcleanteam.co.uk

2014 and we will see what happens with the Euro 6 Type Approved cars start being sold and the UK MOT rules or changed rules for those cars from 2014 and at 2017 on.

 

Now if you want to do your thing then contacting the firms near you is the best idea,

if nobody here can not name one, just Google the Re-Mapping Companies near you and call them and ask/price.

 

If the car runs fine now, then you are hardly going to save money by spending on the DPF removal, just by the fuel saved,

so you are spending to improve speed performance.

 

?Has the DPF been a PITA so far?

 

george

Spendid George, I knew you'd chip in with that elusive site. 

Not relevant to this thread, & the mods to the 60 plate car,

but the future is not far away.

The manufacturers are expecting the Euro Vl vehicles coming to stimulant sales of new Euro V's before they arrive,

the last hoorah!

Euro 5 diesels to buy as a keeper. & that you can maybe still do some mods on.

 

http://www.rac.co.uk/community/blog/rac-blog/january-2012/euro-6-and-diesel-vehicles

I have recently bought my first skoda, which is the same as yours 1.6cr tdi 75. Their is a tuning companh near me that can tune our cars with a full custom remap and a rolling road print out with the results. The company is called pendle performance and is based in Barnoldswick, Lancashire. He claims to be able to increase power to 130bhp.

As I have just bought the vechile and still have warrenty remaining I wont be tuning untill next year. Just Google them for the number. They are a reputable company and specialize in tuning high performance vw vans.

Its not that far to drive to shark in mansfield. they are the leaders in this field and they are who i will be using when i need the volvo doing.

Ignore them saying not to get it removed. The world is not going to end and baby kittens will not die.

Its not that far to drive to shark in mansfield. they are the leaders in this field and they are who i will be using when i need the volvo doing.

Ignore them saying not to get it removed. The world is not going to end and baby kittens will not die.

But human beings are and will continue to do so from traffic pollution. Granted not all down to dpf removal but why disproportionately add high toxicity particulate matter to the problem when you don't need to. Tuning is perfectly possible without removal. No disrespect but if we all did that we'd be in real trouble. It's no wonder legislation is on it's way to stop this sort of thing happening. 

Edited 9 September, 201312 yr by Estate Man

I take the points mentioned and no i am not having a ' nightmare' at the moment but understand that as the DPF's get older they may cause issues..... financial issues, and with the best will in the world if its going to cost me a lot, then its got to come off.

 

I will have the car remapped and leave the DPF for now and see how it goes, does the fuel consumption improve or get worse after a decent remap and just what bhp and torque figures can i expect ?

I've got the same engine however its in a vw , I've not had any inclinations tattle dpf as kicked in once in 20k miles but I did in the fabia ? , as Estateman has already said its not really environmentally friendly thing to remove the dpf system on your vehicle but its your morality no one else's ! However if you and the next owner comes on here and says " yes dpf removal saved me thrupanace well problem is dpf removal will snowball and then we all will suffer the consciences , the cr engine makes a finer dust which is able to penetrate the lungs and play havoc with our respiratory system , however by all means re/map it I'm pretty sure brimma has has a good one from shark performance , when my golf is out of warranty I will be paying them a visit

I have a Euro IV with a DPF. I don't think there will be any law changes to lower the limit on that since most Euro IV cars never had one in the first place.

 

Also, if DPFs are burning soot that would instead come out as carbon, they increase CO2 output. If I take mine off, I want my tax band lowered for reducing my CO2

 

However, if it ain't broke, I'd leave it well alone.

Diesel Particulate Filters (DPFs) are usually fitted as standard to new diesel cars and vans to enable manufacturers to comply with air pollutant emissions standards. They limit emissions of airborne soot particles from diesel exhaust which are harmful to human health.

DPF Removal? – The Legal Position

Drivers experiencing frequent problems with DPFs may be tempted to simply remove the filter entirely to avoid further problems, and there are a number of companies advertising DPF removal services. Such companies often claim that it is not illegal to remove the DPF as the vehicle will still pass MoT smoke opacity test without it.

Although it may not be illegal for companies to provide this service, the same is unfortunately not true for the owner of that vehicle. The Secretary of State for Transport recently confirmed in a written response to a question from a MP that it is an offence under the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a (3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards that it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF, whilst not illegal in itself, will almost certainly result in a contravention of the above requirement making the vehicle illegal to use on the road.

it is an offence under the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a (3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards that it was designed to meet.

 

The standards are:

Euro IV: 0.025g/km

Euro V: 0.005g/km

 

If the vehicle is tested to its relevant standard and passes, what is the offence?

Mot will not pick up the dpf removal (yet) I think this check will be part of the mot test sooner than later

The standards are:

Euro IV: 0.025g/km

Euro V: 0.005g/km

 

If the vehicle is tested to its relevant standard and passes, what is the offence?

 

The offence is driving the car without a dpf. You have altered the construction of the vehicle from it's original safe state. It's then harmful to everyone (including kittens!) and anyone who says it isn't doesn't understand the issues, and the consequences for themselves and the rest of us. Don't forget, there are myriads of firms removing dpf's now and it's a growing business making the air we breath much less safe in our cities and towns. Nano particulates stay in the air for hours and hours and travel far and wide inflicting themselves on a wide populace. Without a dpf a car will usually pass the mot alright (but not necessarily always) but the exhaust gases become lethal once you start to drive. Our own experiments without a dpf showed an increase of all particulates including nano of up to 680% (over normal levels with a dpf) with the engine under load. Yet running the engine as if taking an MOT, smoke was not an issue and it would have passed. Smoke tests are the only emissions that count for diesels at MOT...at the moment! That's going to change soon. New legislation is coming, it's in the pipeline, and you will almost certainly have to put the dpf back on to comply with the law. Incidentally, the engine would have passed because the engine isn't loaded at MOT like it is when you drive it, and the MOT test gas analysers cannot see the nano particulates that do the damage to health. You cannot see nano particulate matter, it's not in the form of smoke. The exhaust gas analyses at MOT cannot see the nano particulate matter that comes from cr engines. It's dangerous to human health. If you were driving your car for a significant time behind someone who had removed their dpf, your own cars aircon filtration system will not filter the particulates out of the air entering your car. This means you will breath those particulates into your lungs as they build up inside the cabin. These particulates do cause serious problems over time. It's proven and real. That's why dpf's exist. They have been fitted to the majority of diesel cars since 2004 in one form or another. They are not new. In fact, as soon as manufacturers and the government realised there was a problem with emissions. The new dpf's for Euro 5 filter even more particulate matter and gases too. If it were the case you could remove your dpf without affecting the rest of us then there would be no problem, but that's not the case and people need to be aware of that. 

The offence is driving the car without a dpf. You have altered the construction of the vehicle from it's original safe state. It's then harmful to everyone (including kittens!) and anyone who says it isn't doesn't understand the issues, and the consequences for themselves and the rest of us. Don't forget, there are myriads of firms removing dpf's now and it's a growing business making the air we breath much less safe in our cities and towns. Nano particulates stay in the air for hours and hours and travel far and wide inflicting themselves on a wide populace. Without a dpf a car will usually pass the mot alright (but not necessarily always) but the exhaust gases become lethal once you start to drive. Our own experiments without a dpf showed an increase of all particulates including nano of up to 680% (over normal levels with a dpf) with the engine under load. Yet running the engine as if taking an MOT, smoke was not an issue and it would have passed. Smoke tests are the only emissions that count for diesels at MOT...at the moment! That's going to change soon. New legislation is coming, it's in the pipeline, and you will almost certainly have to put the dpf back on to comply with the law. Incidentally, the engine would have passed because the engine isn't loaded at MOT like it is when you drive it, and the MOT test gas analysers cannot see the nano particulates that do the damage to health. You cannot see nano particulate matter, it's not in the form of smoke. The exhaust gas analyses at MOT cannot see the nano particulate matter that comes from cr engines. It's dangerous to human health. If you were driving your car for a significant time behind someone who had removed their dpf, your own cars aircon filtration system will not filter the particulates out of the air entering your car. This means you will breath those particulates into your lungs as they build up inside the cabin. These particulates do cause serious problems over time. It's proven and real. That's why dpf's exist. They have been fitted to the majority of diesel cars since 2004 in one form or another. They are not new. In fact, as soon as manufacturers and the government realised there was a problem with emissions. The new dpf's for Euro 5 filter even more particulate matter and gases too. If it were the case you could remove your dpf without affecting the rest of us then there would be no problem, but that's not the case and people need to be aware of that. 

 

What does the term "under load" mean, and is a car driven "under load" around town?

Under load mean normal driving. In our tests the engine was run by computer under the type of conditions encountered on the road. Power and emissions were monitored, as was fuel consumption. The MOT is only concerned with the smoke test where the engine is not under 'pulling' load just rowed on the throttle at high revs. 

I'm a mechanical numpty, I"m afraid

Does that mean that a stationary car being ragged at high revs will kick out less bad bits than if it's being pootled around town just over tick over?

For the record, I do still have a DPF. I wasn't aware that CRs are worse naked than PDs, which is what I have (PD140), an engine that came out of the factory without a DPF in many cars.

 

If it fails in mine, its not because I use the car wrong - its driven almost entirely on motor/dual carriageway, but because it was bodged onto the engine and that is the main reason I would look at removing it.

 

I understand the health issues here, but they wouldn't justify me buying another DPF for this car as it would be guaranteed to fail again.

I'm a mechanical numpty, I"m afraid

Does that mean that a stationary car being ragged at high revs will kick out less bad bits than if it's being pootled around town just over tick over?

Under load a CR engine does emit more nano particulates than just being 'rowed' on the throttle. But even so, the exhaust analyser cannot see the nano's on the MOT anyway. 

For the record, I do still have a DPF. I wasn't aware that CRs are worse naked than PDs, which is what I have (PD140), an engine that came out of the factory without a DPF in many cars.

 

If it fails in mine, its not because I use the car wrong - its driven almost entirely on motor/dual carriageway, but because it was bodged onto the engine and that is the main reason I would look at removing it.

 

I understand the health issues here, but they wouldn't justify me buying another DPF for this car as it would be guaranteed to fail again.

 

One of the reasons the PD engine was done away with is the fact it's a dirty engine with regard to the new regs. It puts out slightly less nano particulates than a cr but unfortunately is a smokey motor anyway compared to the more modern cr units and that is what causes the dpf issues that some have. In addition, the noise regs for engines are being tightened and it could not meet those either.