Fabia Vrs TDI stage rally car build

[felicia16v]

First of all I have been thinking of going tdi power for a while and now I have made the decision and spoken to the MSA who make the rules about it and they have said I do not need to have an inlet restrictor fitted to the turbo as long as the turbo is smaller than the 37mm that a diesel is restricted to which is good news as the usual suspects for turbo swaps are less anyway so we won't lose any power there.

Any way I was browsing for an engine and maybe a smashed car for the conversion of my car when I saw a vrs on here for breaking and bought the car off him minus the bits he wanted to keep.

 

so I was expecting the car itself to be rough and just a donor for the engine conversion kit but having got it back home it is actually a very straight example and newer than my current car so I will save the hassle of swapping from petrol to diesel with dvla etc and rebuild all the bits from the white car into it.

The vrs had stopped in a cloud of smoke and had a lot of diesel in the sump hence being broken for parts so I was suspecting to need an engine still.

 

I finally had chance to check why the donor doesn't run, she would crank and start and run for 2 seconds, but wouldn't rev or anything.

The sump had 4 litres of diesel in so I was suspecting engine damage anyway but wanted to get it running so I didn't have to push it in and out of the workshop.

there was a fault code relating to crank sensor implausible signal in the ecu so I tried another sensor first, still the same so removed the sump to check the reluctor ring on the crank and found 7 teeth damaged on it from something rubbing against it..

turns out the motor must have pushed enough diesel/oil thru the breather to hydraulic no 4 cylinder and bend the con rod thus making the piston come further down the bore and catch the ring....

the head has bad wear around the injectors which was making them leak diesel into the oil, which I have a fix for as I won a brand new pd head on ebay for £112 on friday.

so I am looking for a pd 130 bottom end now as I think the rod has caught on the bottom of the bore too and cracked it.

[felicia16v]

So it begins!!

finally got chance to get her in the workshop this eve and start removing the engine, I was intending to just do a few bits but got carried away and the engine+box is out now,

I have just bought a golf gttdi pd130 for £200 as an mot failure which runs ok and should hopefully have a garret turbo and a few other bits that will help a bit and that car should arrive next week so I need to get my arse into gear and get the fabia prepped ready for the new engine, I need to fully strip the engine bay and remove all the surplus bits of ac pipework etc and prep the suspension mounting area's for seam welding while access is good as the heavy engine and box will soon take it's toll on the std spot welds after a few rough stages etc.

so far the only snag I have spotted is the lack of speed sensor on the gearbox and the wiring for it as the speed is supplied via the abs unit which I won't be using. Now most fabia's still have the speed sensor wiring even with abs fitted but it just goes to a blank plug on the diff usually but on this one there is nothing so I am either going to have to leave the abs unit fitted (and re- pipe the brakes so it isn't used) or take a closer look at the gearbox and see if there is space for a sensor and add the wiring to the engine ecu which should happily send it to the dash via can once it is coded to know it no longer has abs.. at least that is my take on in has anyone else tried similar?

The plan with the white car now is to use it to donate everything needed to rally the black one then sell the white one as a track/roadrally with msa logbook and V5 and the 1.6 engine in otherwise I would need to sell it complete for a decent amount to allow me to build the black one from scratch and I don't think the market is there to sell it to really and all the time it is for sale it would be holding me back with the black car, so a bit of a waste of man hours building her but hopefully I can find a home for her once I have everything I need back off.

totally skint now but the aim is still Brean 2014 so that should be a decent enough timeframe as long as nothing too expensive needs doing I was hoping to get a wavetrac lsd in the gearbox for then along with a paddle clutch but there is over £1000 between them straight away  

[mattvrestate]

Fit a 5 speed box + that will solve both your speed sensor problem (5 speed has it in box) and your expensive clutch/ flywheel problems (5 speed can be fitted with g60 solid flywheel + vr6 style paddle clutch). Both are dirt cheap. Also i doubt u will need a 6th gear doing stage rallying and the gears are obviously longer in a 5 speed which is another advantage for rallying

[felicia16v]

You know that is an idea right there, but I have heard that the 5 speed box is not that strong compared to the 6 ? I am after reliability as well as speed and some events I have done in the past have seen the + side of 125mph in places but ideally I would be happy with 110 mph top speed, problem with the 5 speed is then the driveshaft's are different again and smaller cv's etc 

[mattvrestate]

Ye the driveshafts are different but the CV joints arent smaller on a 5 speed compared to 6 speed iirc. Also in my experience the 6 speed boxes seem to be less reliable.. only problem with 5 speed boxes of the fabia era have been crunching into reverse where the syncro has knackred. On the 6 speeds its not uncommon to loose 6 gear or crunching in every gear aswell as various noises from the box.. (some of which were cured by a new type gearbox oil). Also u will still see 125+ mph from a 5 speed (trust me )

Edited 1 November, 2013 by mattvrestate

[lukeanderson31]

Ill agree. Im at 210bhp currently. And itll do 150mph piece of urine

Clutch and flywheel kits are half the price for 5spd

Driveshafts are not hard to source from an polo/ibiza/fabia in a spares yard, i know my local one has a fair few in on 5spd boxes

Luke

[felicia16v]

Hmmm, Luke are you on a 5 speed? I'm guessing that the octavia box's don't fit is that right?

[mattvrestate]

Lukes got same setup as me. 5 speed box with g60 solid flywheel + vr6 uprated clutch.

Fabia/ polo/ ibiza 1.9tdi 100bhp 5 speed box is what u need m8.. engine code ATD for the earlier + cnt remember the code for the later models

Octavia/ mk4 golf etc boxes wont fit

Edited 1 November, 2013 by mattvrestate

[felicia16v]

hmm according to this tho

http://www.skodafabiaclub.com/technikaiinfok/muszaki_leirasok/SSP_032_2.pdf

is says the 02r is rated for 250nm which isn't much really especially if using sticky tyres and maximising the torque, anyone had any failures of these box's. I know we have had a couple with noisey bearings in but most of our customers are pretty steady drivers really.

I suppose I could sell the 02m and shafts etc and free up some cash too.

food for thought and I thought it would be a simple job lol, what clutches and flywheels do you run with the 5 speed then guys?

[lukeanderson31]

Im using a techniclutch piece of crap. Its average but its not rated for what its quoted at. I think im at about 340-360ftlbs at minute. I think! Im running 210bhp. Clutch was fine at 200bhp, but started slipping when we up'd the boost for more power.

I will be moving on to a sachs sre clutch with g60 lightened flywheel. Or a darkside silent single mass kitt. Havent decided yet, need more conversations with Ryan after christmas.

AXR is the later, and my, engine code.

I have 118k on the clock, my box is absolutely fine.

Luke

[felicia16v]

hmmm found this on swapping an 02R for an 02J

http://www.tigerstyle.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=57436

soo it will fit and I can get all the usual suspect parts for it like cwp bolt kit and wavetrac along with having lower final drives available maybe 3.8-1 instead of the tdi 3.3-1, 

can anyone tell me if it is possible to use the vrs inner+outer cv's with the pd100 driveshaft? I'm guessing the 02j 1.8t flanges will be the correct size for the vrs inners.

interesting and much cheaper guys....

[mattvrestate]

Stay clear of the techniclutch that Luke and I have!

I fitted mine to my standard solid flywheel (had a g60 but they looked the same so i didnt bother fitting it. Once built up it wouldnt go into gear + if u started in gear it felt like the clutch wasnt connected even when flat to the floor. I didnt have time to take it back out at the time. Then moved jobs + my new work doesnt let us use the ramps in our own time :(. I assumed it was due to my flywheel being different although they did look the same..

Anyway iv only just had time + the use of a m8s ramp today to rip the gearbox out + swap the flywheel.. i took the original flywheel off + compared it to the standard g60 one i bought ages ago.. they were identical with the same part num.

Iv had a good look at the techniclutch + it seems only a tiny bit was making contact with the pressure plate/ flywheel. Also the teeth on the pressure plate had a circular mark from the outer edge of the release bearing instead of the centre.. asif the clutch plate was too thick causing the teeth to not stick out enough. Other than that i bolted it to the flywheel out of the gearbox + bench tested it + it worked when pressed in the centre of the teeth using a press.

So i decided to refit it + try to burn/ bed in the clutch. Iv driven 15 miles in it + it still doesnt engage propperly to change gear :(. I will give them a ring monday but i doubt they will be helpfull.. they have a bad reputation for customer service.

Kit only cost me £120 (clutch kit + r.bearing).. Looks like an example of "Buy cheap Buy twice :( )

Edited 2 November, 2013 by mattvrestate

[lukeanderson31]

Stay clear of the techniclutch that Luke and I have!

I fitted mine to my standard solid flywheel (had a g60 but they looked the same so i didnt bother fitting it. Once built up it wouldnt go into gear + if u started in gear it felt like the clutch wasnt connected even when flat to the floor. I didnt have time to take it back out at the time. Then moved jobs + my new work doesnt let us use the ramps in our own time :(. I assumed it was due to my flywheel being different although they did look the same..

Anyway iv only just had time + the use of a m8s ramp today to rip the gearbox out + swap the flywheel.. i took the original flywheel off + compared it to the standard g60 one i bought ages ago.. they were identical with the same part num.

Iv had a good look at the techniclutch + it seems only a tiny bit was making contact with the pressure plate/ flywheel. Also the teeth on the pressure plate had a circular mark from the outer edge of the release bearing instead of the centre.. asif the clutch plate was too thick causing the teeth to not stick out enough. Other than that i bolted it to the flywheel out of the gearbox + bench tested it + it worked when pressed in the centre of the teeth using a press.

So i decided to refit it + try to burn/ bed in the clutch. Iv driven 15 miles in it + it still doesnt engage propperly to change gear :(. I will give them a ring monday but i doubt they will be helpfull.. they have a bad reputation for customer service.

Kit only cost me £120 (clutch kit + r.bearing).. Looks like an example of "Buy cheap Buy twice :( )

I second this motion!

I wish id done a bit more reading up tbh, but you live and learn!

If you need any help with anything 5spd, gimme a shout aha

Luke

[felicia16v]

I'm hoping I can get a 4 pad clutch from cg, I have a valeo solid flywheel which hopefully is the same as the g60 one, I was thinking last night about using an 02J box from a petrol so having a lower final drive

[felicia16v]

Right mini update as all the pics I took toady have dissapeared from my fone

Sold the old car to a workmate who has a felicia rally car so it's not gone far, deal was for the car minus the parts I need as he is happy to use lesser brakes and suspension etc. so another rollcage ordered same as previous Sparco bolt in, I wanted a weld in but the budget custom cages one is not FIA legal which means if I wanted to pop over to belguim etc I couldn't use it so the cheaper Sparco one is FIA legal but a 5 week wait for it to come now.

seats and suspension+brakes are getting swapped over from the old car so I don't have much to buy except sorting a clutch and lsd (tran-x do a plate type lsd for the 02J 5 speed) so for now I have stripped the whole inside and engine bay ready to grind the seams back and weld them and beef up the engine mount areas ready for the abuse it is going to get.

there is loads of exrtra wiring in this one compared to the old car which was a classic spec, some of which I will remove (the easy bits anyway) and some which will have to stay tucked up out of sight.

old engine stripped of all it's ancillaries and found it has a garret turbo which is a bonus and it was new in feb this year, unsure how good it will be now after having the oil diluted with diesel tho ?

the only part I am stuck on at the moment is running the fanbelt without the ac pump on the engine, I know that vw do the diesels without ac but I don't really want to spend on more parts and they would be a fortune new so I may have to knock up an idler pulley I think ?

apart from that I have started a for sale thread on here for the bit's I won't be needing.

pics tomorrow..

oh and the aim is Brean stages again end of Jan, but this time there should be my 17 yr old apprentice Luke with his felicia on his 1st rally and John with my old fabia too so almost like the old Skoda throphy

[felicia16v]

yesterday

today

got the heater unit out and removed all the sound deadening on the bulkhead,, I need to weld a plate over the hold where the aircon pipes came thru to seal it, and make more holes for the power cable and rear brake pipe to come thru while everything is out, 

also a mate gave me 5 ltrs of industrial paint stripper so i had a trial run on the engine mount which needs beefing up a fair bit 

ate thru it to the bare steel in 10 mins with just a gentle rub with a wore brush so that should make seam welding go a bit easier and faster..

[felicia16v]

seam welding done, now

just needs another coat of paint. 

I've blanked off the hole in the bulkhead where the ac was and removed the pipework from the heater unit, and all week shiny new bits have been arriving via the post man also my donor golf arrived today, first time I have seen it as I bought it over the phone lol

looks all of £200 worth to me anyway motor and box is good she just needs a load of bits for an mot so he was scrapping it 

all sorts of bits need to be done now but in a particular order really, I have found via the wiring diagrams I have that the vehicle speed sensor actually goes straight to the dash panel so I need to get a wire run to that so I have a speedo and once that is done I can start looking to fit the engine in, I need a 5 speed gearbox and a clutch really but I may fit the 6 speed in to get everything else working, also just bought a forge front mount off here for a bargain price so that can go straight on when I build the motor up.

It actually feels like it's coming together now I just need to sell off some of the bits I won't be using so I can afford the rest of the bits now..

[devonutopia]

If you fit the 5 speed box don't forget you need the 5 speed shifter cables and shifter box for in the cabin.

[felicia16v]

You know that was going to be my next question, I was hoping either the 5 speed shifter unit and cables from the 16v would fit with the octavia gearbox bracket?

if not then ebay again lol.

I almost talked myself into swapping the 5 speed from my road car lol

[devonutopia]

Not sure - I just know I needed the vRS shifter cables and stick when I did my conversion to a 6 speed box.

 

I would imagine your old 5 speed shifter are the same cables.

[felicia16v]

hmmm we have a few mpi fabia's breaking and a couple of 16v, no tdi ones tho I'll have to check part no's I guess

[felicia16v]

Right small update

if you ever wondered how a roll cage gets delivered it is like this

all the way from Italy lol ,unfortunately for me it is actually 4 weeks early as it was due a week before xmas so I had my plans already sorted.

I now need to get it in next as it is in the way now as I don't have much secure storage.

in the meantime I have sorted the issue with the vehicle sped sensor, I swapped the pin's around at the dash multiplug so the hand brake warning light wire is now in the correct hole for the speed signal and ran the wire in thru the bulkhead to where the speed sensor will be on the gearbox, the old airbag wiring supplied a switched 12v and I spent a couple of hours removing excess wiring from around the heater unit.

I also now have this ready to fit

got to be an improvement over the sidemount IC anyway and it was cheap.

I bought a 5 speed gearbox from a 1,8t golf for £50 on ebay

according to this site

http://vwtechnic.com/Technic/VWGearboxRatios.xls

it should give me a top speed of 108mph at 5000rpm ish depending on tyres etc

I just need to sort out what driveshafts to use now and wait for the paddle clutch to arrive

i also stripped the front suspension to fit the new springs and found that one of the inserts was no longer working correctly so they need to go back to AVO for a service.

The golf has given up it's hold on the engine and it is now sat waiting to go into it's new home, I won't fit it until I can get it to drive as it just makes it heavy to push in and out of the workshop and there is no big rush as I know the engine works will fit etc.

Think that is about it for now I need someone to buy the 2  speed gearbox's so i can buy some more stuff soon lol..

[felicia16v]

It's all coming together now, I spent all weekend welding the seat mountings and rollcage plates into the shell, the clutch should be here tomorrow from CG clutches, it is a 5 pad ceramic solid drive plate with their heavy duty cover machined into my solid flywheel so should be up to the job.

Roll cage and front bumper sprayed on sat both black magic and the cage finally fitted this eve so I have the dash to do next then I can fit the engine and box and it should move under it's own power then hopefully.

I have to drill the turbo housing bolts so they can be sealed before I fit the turbo too

entry is in and accepted for the rally in Jan so I really need to get my arse into gear now lol.

only pic I have of this weekend so far is this one, old car and new car 

old one is having new gearbox fitted while I'm welding bits into the black one.

more updates with pics this week

[felicia16v]

This arrived today :love:

Solid drive plate with ceramic pads and heavy duty uprated cover plate, origionally I was just going to get the drive plate and use the new valeo cover but Mike at CG rang to say the cover may not put enough pressure to stop it slipping and could burn the drive pads out, so we came to a compromise of machining my valeo flywheel to take his pressure plate and clutch and at a decent enough price, hopefully time will see how good it really is but it looks decent so far, I now just need some flywheel bolts (used the orig ones twice now so scrap) and I can put the engine in the car. 

oh can anyone spot the deliberate mistake I made with the fuse box last night

  sorted it now tho and the dash is back in, not as tidily as I would have liked the dash to be where I had to cut it but it will have to do as there are only 5 weekends to sort everything and I still need to order a lsd yet as well as a few other bits lol.

[Dann2707]

Epic work mate. Love threads like these