The Original VAG Dynamic test which was well explained in the Technical Bulletin and had the engine through 4 heat cycles & they oil properly hot,

before the first weigh, gave it as 854 Grams at 15*oC.

They then did a 100 km Dynamic Road test, weighed and Multiplied by 10.

That tests were accurate.

 

So i weighed 1 Litre of 5w 40 engine oil starting at 15*oC, then heated it to 85*oC, 

It was 845 Grams at 15 *oC & the same at 85*oC.

The mark on the container for the oil at room temperature was were the oil was when hot.

 

A 1 litre unopened bottle of engine oil weighs still in the bottle about 900 grams.

So where a Technician thought a litre could be 1000 grams i have no idea.

 

Not engine oil, but cooking oil.

Pour it in your chip pan and see where the level is, heat it enough to cook your food,

deep Fried Mars Bar or Battered Pizza,  but before cooking look at the hot oil level.

it is the same, hot or cold.

I had a poke around on the net and found this interesting table:

°F - °C - Density - Vol in ltrs - Vol change %

_____________________________________________

59 - 15 - 0.858 - 4.00 - 0.00

68 - 20 - 0.855 - 4.01 - 0.35

104 - 40 - 0.842 - 4.08 - 1.90

140 - 60 - 0,828 - 4.14 - 3.62

176 - 80 - 0.815 - 4.21 - 5.28

212 - 100 - 0.802 - 4.28 - 6.98

248 - 120 - 0.789 - 4.35 - 8.75

284 - 140 - 0.776 - 4.42 - 10.57

This is an example of a 5W-40 oil

_______________________________

Can't verify its accuracy but would suggest oil does actually expand its volume for a given mass/weight with temp increase by a significant amount.

I don't believe that 3.6L of 15degC oil is still 3.6L once up to operating temps. :-)

So I'd say skodas oil consumption test results will vary depending on the temps at which they measure the oil I.e reducing its accuracy....

But it is a weight test,

so what does a table say the difference is in weight of engine oil between 15 *oC & 85*oC

 

So over a range of 65 degrees, which is hardly a significant amount.

'Oz Fabia's will be sitting at 50*oC some days before he starts his engine.

& the member from Qatars car gets used in hot temps and shows a Engine Oil temp much as we get here.

 

With the VAG Official Consumption test,

it is weighed after a Run and through a heat cycle and should be weighed again at the same temperature if there is going to be a weight difference between hot and cold.

 

My scales are pretty accurate. My Toffee Thermometer is pretty accurate, my measuring jug is pretty accurate.

 

Its only engine oil in a passenger car.

Put in the right amount., and if driving normally you might use some,

abnormally use more.

Know how to check it and top up as required.

 

Hardly Rocket Science.

But it is a weight test,

so what does a table say the difference is in weight of engine oil between 15 *oC & 85*oC

 

So over a range of 65 degrees, which is hardly a significant amount.

'Oz Fabia's will be sitting at 50*oC some days before he starts his engine.

& the member from Qatars car gets used in hot temps and shows a Engine Oil temp much as we get here.

 

it is weighed after a Run and through a heat cycle and should be weighed again at the same temperature if there is going to be a weight difference between hot and cold.

 

My scales are pretty accurate. My Toffee Thermometer is pretty accurate, my measuring jug is pretty accurate.

 

Its only engine oil in a passenger car.

Put in the right amount., and if driving normally you might use some,

abnormally use more.

Know how to check it and top up as required.

 

Hardly Rocket Science.

That's true -if they are correctly draining and weighing the entire oil volume it should stack up I suppose!

The table says that the density of oil drops as it's temp rises -therefore 1L of oil will weigh less at 85deg than it does at 15deg -same as any other liquid or gas.

I stand by my original point that he oil volume in the car will expand as it gets hotter - whether or not that is significant in the context of the Fabia vRS is unknown to me lol!!!

<snip>

The table says that the density of oil drops as it's temp rises - therefore 1L of oil will weigh less at 85deg than it does at 15deg

<snip>

Are you sure that that is right?  Density is calculated as mass divided by volume and expressed as kilograms per cubic meter, surely the volume increases as the temperature rises but the mass (amount of oil) remains the same therefore the density reduces?

 

As has been mentioned earlier, this assumes that some oil hasn't disappeared (by leakage or burning, etc.).

 

As has also been pointed out, any measurements on weight assume that ALL of the oil is weighed before and after and I doubt that all of the oil input will always be drained - a stupid, unscientific measurement frankly.

Are you sure that that is right?  Density is calculated as mass divided by volume and expressed as kilograms per cubic meter, surely the volume increases as the temperature rises but the mass (amount of oil) remains the same therefore the density reduces?

 

As has been mentioned earlier, this assumes that some oil hasn't disappeared (by leakage or burning, etc.).

 

As has also been pointed out, any measurements on weight assume that ALL of the oil is weighed before and after and I doubt that all of the oil input will always be drained - a stupid, unscientific measurement frankly.

Yeah that is correct. If you re-arrange your equation Mass = density x volume. So if you have 1L each of two different density (I.e temp) oils the lower density (higher temp) oil has to have a lower mass I.e weigh less. :-)

I'd read they use weight as temperature differences can skew the usage results meaning that a volume measurement is inaccurate.

I'd read they use weight as temperature differences can skew the usage results meaning that a volume measurement is inaccurate.

Which is probably why the traditional recommendation used to be to dip cold

Got some new findings I would like to share. I parked my car up after my drive home from work (28 miles, car nice and hot) left it to cool for 10 mins and took a dipstick reading. 3 dots from bottom. I didn't add anything as I am trying the approach of waiting for the check oil light to appear before topping up.

I have not moved my car since as I am working from home today. I have just been out to check my oil for a cold reading and have found it is the exact same spot of 3 dots from the bottom on the dipstick. I am sticking to my guns and not adding anything. I am still convinced that the dipstick can be inaccurate, it's just interesting to find both hot and cold dips produced the same reading.

What kind of Dipstick have you got that has Dots on it?

 

If your oil was nice and hot after 28 miles and it was all back in the sump after 10 minutes of stopping,

drained back down from the head and the oil filter,

then the cold dip level might well be the same level up the dipstick,

you are measuring the height of the top of the quantity of oil in the sump.

Dots/indents/hatched area

I call them dots but I guess the common name is hatched area. So 3 lines of hatchings from the bottom

I just never know what to believe, sometimes I do dips after pulling up and I have plenty of oil and then do a cold dip and there is nothing on the dipstick. My car runs sweet as a nut and I have never had any problems. I use about 500ml of oil per 1400 miles so I am going to see if that changes by just going off the check oil light.

If you can be bothered please, since you know where the oil is on the stick cold.

 

Could you do a 'Jabozuma test' please.

Do not move the car.

 

Just start it and stop it immediately,  then dip it and see where the oil is.

It should read the same as a 'Hot Dip', where it is dipped after 5 minutes of stopping from it being above 80*oC.

Ive tried the jabozuma test from cold started it turned it off and the reading was a lot lower than compared to a hot dip. So in my experience it doesnt read the same as a hot dip.

So many variables,  

how long was it to switch right off with you, and how long you wait to do a Hot dip after stopping.

 

I do it the same way on a variety of different cars and get a constant reading on engines with 3.6 litres in.

& have done for over a year now. & on a good few Twinchargers.

An engine with below 3.6 litres does not give the same level Jabozuma & Hot dip. IME.

Why i was asking Ally to do it for me as a favour since his oil level is obviously already low.

 

The inconsistency of different people doing it their own way is what keeps giving different results.

 

As long as people are happy the way they do it, and with the results they get.

 

I am interested to see how long it is and how low the oil is by the time Ally's Light or Message shows.

 

george

I sent SUK an email last week asking them what temperature/conditions the oil should be checked under. They say it should only be checked "10-15 mins" after switching off the engine and "not when it is hot or cold". Not particularly helpful! I told them to come back with specific temperatures and times as this is not an accurate method to check the oil and probably isn't helping with the issues they know some people are having!

Just to confuse things, SUK have this to say in regards to checking the oil on the vrs :

 

The manual does not give a specific temperature reading it only states as below:

The oil level must not, under any circumstances, be above the area -a- - danger of damage to the catalytic converter.
The vehicle must be standing on level ground when measuring the oil level.
Wait at least 3 minutes after switching off the engine to allow the oil to flow back into the oil pan.
During the pre-sales inspection, the oil inspection can also be performed on a cold engine.

The engine is a CAVE engine

The only engine which it gives a temp reading is on 1.2 ltr./44 kW engines with identification characters BBM and CHFA, the
inspection of the engine oil level must be carried out when the engine is cold. For these engines, the dipstick is calibrated
for oil which is approx. 20°C cold. The difference between the oil level when cold and warm is approx. 8 mm on 1.2 ltr./44 kW
engines with identification characters BBM and CHFA.

There is no specific oil temperature recommended by the factory with regards to checking the oil on this engine. It is
recognised that when the engine is at operating temperature (i.e. engine cooling fans have cut in) the viscosity of the oil is
at such a level that when the engine is stopped it will flow freely back to the bottom of the engine. As such the only
recommendation is you wait at least 3 minutes after switching off the engine to allow the oil to flow back into the oil pan

The VW Polo Owners Manual  for the same engines says. (other than with the one engine that needs cold dips)

 

'Normal Operating Temperature',

 

Skoda manual says 'Warm'.    

 

There are threads with the VW Manual and the different Translations.starting around about Summer 2012,  but its gone from my computer.

 

There have been plenty in the past 3 years. You might think SKODA would know by now,

the Technical Department told me they were changing Owners Instructions in 2012.

I'm trying to work out a constructive response to their email as that is still a very vague and inaccurate method. Surely someone somewhere in VAG must know the best and most accurate way to so this?

 

Did anything come about from the suggestion in the other thread about doing a protest at SUK with a load of vRS's parked outside? I'd be up for this!

Edited 21 March, 201412 yr by Gumby

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/235952-mk2-vrs-drinks-oil-for-fun-from-new

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/233266-check-oil-level-465-miles

 

Nothing wrong with knowing there is 3.6 litres in,

dip stone cold, see where that is, 

and then that is the correct level on cold dips.

 

Skoda UK know the problems, SEAT, VW & Audi know the problems.

Some members here think it is an internet myth.

Hello from Austria!

A guy of the Skoda-community forum in Germany has thought over this problem how to do the oil level measurements accurate and with a sufficient high reproducibility.

The short form is to wait over night and do the measurement. Waiting 15min is much too short because the oil needs a lot of time to settle completely. The worst thing one can do is to fill it up to max until one hasn't done the measurement after waiting over night. This could also be the reason for the "suspected" high oil consumption. And also the misfire and spark plug problems could be a result from a oil level over maximum because of false, too early measurements.

The whole story is much longer. Tomorrow I'll translate it into English.

Servus, Michi

Welcome to the forum.

 

The problem is waiting 15 minutes or longer is too long.

VAG suggest check oil when fueling.

 

In English they say wait a 'Few Minutes',  well,  2 or 3 or 4 or 5 are a 'Few'

You have driven near 400 miles since setting off, you just check the oil before carrying on and do another 400 maybe at motorway speeds or in warm weather.

 

15 minutes and you have petrol in the tank and you are driving away up the road.

 

4-5 minutes checked after Operating Temperature of 80*oC plus should give a hot dip.

over 15 minutes after stopping and you might as well check lots later and do a Cold Dip.

 

The thing with Cold Dips are you need to know how high 3.6 litres should be above the Cross Hatch Area.

So its a poor Dipstick as well as Bad Translation to English by Skoda.

 

george

I'm trying to work out a constructive response to their email as that is still a very vague and inaccurate method. Surely someone somewhere in VAG must know the best and most accurate way to so this?

 

You might ask Skoda UK why on earth they don't give advice on "dipping your oil" when cold which would seem to make sense for anyone other than a garage mechanic who has to do the job in a hurry.

 

Incidentally why don't they provide the clearly essential thermometer, stopwatch and spirit level

Edited 21 March, 201412 yr by vxh26

"Hot dipping" is a real pain I think. A bit off topic but my girlfriend has a Honda PCX125 scooter and that requires a "warm" dip, it's more of a pain than the vRS because the hatched area on the dipstick is about 1/4 inch long, impossible to read. I often just carry out an oil change on it as I know it takes 800ml of oil, much easier than trying to get an accurate dip reading... Despite being 4 stroke it burns the cheap oil garages put in but doesn't touch Castrol oil when I do it.

Is hot dipping uncommon, I assume it is the same for the Octavia and other VAG TSi engines?