CAVE Hatch and CTHE Estate comparison review

[Furbytom]

Evening all!

As requested I thought I would share my thoughts on our new CTHE vRS now we have clocked up the first 1000 miles.

To recap- last month we traded our 2011 'CAVE' engined vRS hatch for a new 'CTHE' engined vRS Estate.

The vRS is mainly SWMBOs motor. She absolutely loved the hatch but we swapped for two reasons: 1- we didn't want to risk owning a mk2 Fabia vRS out of manufacturer warranty and 2- first baby has arrived so wanted something with decent boot capacity.

Old:

And a few more pictures of the new one:

Engine/drivetrain:

CTHE feels much more rapid than he old CAVE. Feels keener to rev - the cave ran out of puff and tended to sound quite coarse and breathless at the top end but the CTHE just punches hard right upto the redline. The CAVE did seem to have a more linear power delivery though. There is a much more noticeable 'step change' as the supercharger and turbo come in and out as he revs rise on the CTHE. Almost old school turbo lag when you get a sudden rush of boost after an initial delay. The CTHE also has a more powerful surge at the 5000rpm mark.

The induction note is subtly different on the two cars also. The exhaust note is also much better/louder on the CTHE although not sure if this is more the estate body-style giving this effect. If the stock exhaust was as nice as this on the CAVE hatch I might not have bothered getting a Milltek on that car.

DSG seems very slightly smoother on the CTHE now it has got a few miles on although was abit clueless to begin with.

Ride/handling:

Another win for the CTHE Estate. A lot smoother and turn in seems sharper too. Ride is still the weak-link on these cars though. Poor by modern standards imho. SWMBO can't see much of a ride quality issue tho so she's happy. No noticeable difference in brake performance between the two cars.

Exterior/ Interior:

CTHE has the updated wheel and gear-selector. To be honest at the moment I prefer the ones on the old car but they are growing on me! Music audio quality sounds abit better on the new car.

The rest of the interior is pretty much the same stuff.

Boot is awesome on the estate! Plenty of room for all our baby-clobber. A pram/carry-cot and weekly supermarket shop all fit in together with room to spare.

Wind and road noise seem abit more hushed on the new Estate but it's still not exactly the last word in refinement....

SWMBO prefers the styling of the hatch, I think the Estate looks better. She will come round to my way of thinking in time and realise I am right as usual lol ;-)

Tom

[sharkrider]

Cheers Tom having owned both, and doing the same change, I concur with allot of this...

1) the cthe seems faster...

2) there is a definite step at 5k where it flies to 7k , where the old cave seemed to flag at 5k...

3) the gearbox is mapped differently ... Much better ...

Ride/handling I can't comment my last one was standard, this one is lowered with RARB lol ...

[Furbytom]

Couple of other gearbox points:

1-"flappy paddles" feel better to touch on the CTHE. Still wish skoda would. Have fitted some nice metallic ones however!

2- the DSG on the CTHE seems quicker on the down-changes which is nice as his always annoyed me on the old car.

[vxh26]

You talk about "clocking up the first 1000 miles" and "trading your 2011 'CAVE' engined vRS hatch for a new 'CTHE' engined vRS Estate" but the photos are of a 2013 model - is this a "used" car?

 

If so, what mileage had it done, was it a private or dealer sale and what checks did you do before buying it?

 

Good review incidentally, thanks.

[Furbytom]

You talk about "clocking up the first 1000 miles" and "trading your 2011 'CAVE' engined vRS hatch for a new 'CTHE' engined vRS Estate" but the photos are of a 2013 model - is this a "used" car?

 

If so, what mileage had it done, was it a private or dealer sale and what checks did you do before buying it?

 

Good review incidentally, thanks.

Hi mate,

It was a "new" car unregistered but had been the showroom model at the dealership from Sept 2013 sat there unsold. I bought it for a knockdown price in Feb with just 10miles on the clock.

Tom

[Ootohere]

Nice review thanks.

 

 

...................................

For anyone looking for a vRS Hatch,

there are at least 2 on Autotrader, White 63 plate with under 100 miles on them,

(& a 14 Plate)

A few under 1000 miles including an Estate.

maybe a bargain to be had for less than the asking prices.

http://autotrader.co.uk

[vrskeith]

You talk about "clocking up the first 1000 miles" and "trading your 2011 'CAVE' engined vRS hatch for a new 'CTHE' engined vRS Estate" but the photos are of a 2013 model - is this a "used" car?

 

If so, what mileage had it done, was it a private or dealer sale and what checks did you do before buying it?

 

Good review incidentally, thanks.

Still unable to make your mind up vxh26-no conclusion yet on your part.

 

Good review Tom

[Ally_bassman]

Good review! :-) As a CAVE estate owner I know there was really no chance the CAVE would have any plus points over the CTHE. Never the less it was interesting to read the differences you have noticed between the two powertrains and body styles.

[willias400]

Nice review.  Glad you are enjoying it.  Would of preferred that colour myself but went for the discount on a pre built one.  When did they stop putting the rally stickers on above the side indicators as mine hasn't got them?

[newbie69]

The two points that intrigue me are: "CTHE feels much more rapid than he old CAVE." Now that sounds as a pretty strong statement in my ears so trying to figure it out either: 1) It's a placebo due to the car being brand new (but you don't sound as an inexperienced driver tbh) 2) There were unknown issues with the old car 3) Skoda have secretly applied a generous power increase to newer models (can't see the reason behind it though). As per another thread's request, getting two well-working cars (a CAVE and a CTHE) on the same RR the same day would shed much more scientific light to this I think. Wish I was near as I have always felt the engine to perform brilliantly on mine so I think I could be a good CAVE representative. But anyway, these cars have had so much variation in the way they work, oil consumption being only one area of this variation so it maybe shouldn't come as a surprise in the end. Also, you mention turbo-lag is almost present which is most strange as the supercharger is there to practically eliminate this and it does it really well I would say, so a really different map possibly? Or even an actual Stage 1 remap having been applied by the dealer???   At least that would explain the alleged power difference as well!

Edited 26 March, 2014 by newbie69

[Ally_bassman]

It is very interesting! I believe it be a combination of different mappings for both the DSG and the engine. That could have drastic changes to how the car behaves and it's drivability, giving it the perception of more power?

[willias400]

I think there are a number of us eagerly awaiting the outcome of the CAVE vs CTHE final battle thread!

 

It's interesting that a few people are of the same opinion in that the newer engine seems quicker now.  I had a CAVE engine in an Ibiza Bocanegra on an 11 plate a while back and pick up a CTHE VRS estate next week so I will post my findings also, for what they are worth!

[Ootohere]

They did not just change the engine from being called CAVE to CTHE and not do some work on Fueling etc.

 

The Ibiza was noticeable after the 2013 Update it got, but that included suspension.

 

The vRS got the same Engine/Emission changes, just the Official figures never changed and the VED stayed the same.

Reason being, they then gave the correct unladen weights, and instead of the Hatch being 5 kg heavier Unladen, they corrected the figures and the obviously bigger estate was given the correct unladen weight 

70 kg heavier than the hatch.  now given as 1313kg, from launch they gave it as being 1,238kg,

Why it has different poundage rear springs.

(take the 'Success Ballast handicap weights', off the hatch and it is 95 kg lighter than the estate.)

 

**A CTHE Hatch should actually have the same emissions so also the VED as a Polo, Ibiza and A1 Twincharger,

not as a vRS Estate,  & that should have been the case with a vRS CAVE engine hatch as well.**

 

http://honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/seat/seat-ibiza-cupra-2013-road-test

 

25kg, 45 kg, 70 kg or 95 kg extra, what does it matter,?

well it seems to matter in BTCC what small amounts of extra weight added as a Handicap.

http://btccpages.com/btcc/regs.php#ballast

See 'success ballast'

[newbie69]

They did not just change the engine from being called CAVE to CTHE and not do some work on Fueling etc.

 

The Ibiza was noticeable after the 2013 Update it got, but that included suspension.

 

Well I agree that they must certainly have changed something. The need to do this though came from issues with misfires and oil consumption, not little horsepower if you know what I mean so I would have thought these would be the issues that would have been addressed rather than a power injection, provided of course that there is a real power increase and it's not just the different power delivery that creates that feeling.

 

Speaking of which, I remember when I had first tried the car out, it didn't really felt it was producing 180 bhp from a driver's point of view. As furbytom said, the CAVE power delivery is super linear and even a little... boring. It was only after direct, real-life comparison with other cars you realized how fast you were accelerating so I can certainly imagine a different map being behind that feeling.

[Ootohere]

Once you put your car on a DYNO you will see why 177 bhp/180 ps is given as a 'minimum'.

Funny how they can put out the same as a Audi A1 185ps, when standard.

 

Did you look at the Honest John link and the Road Test on the updated 2013 Ibiza Cupra.

Nobody bothered to do a similar Road Test/comparison when the vRS was updated in late 2012 to the CTHE.

 

http://honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/seat/seat-ibiza-cupra-2013-road-test

'Kerb/Unladen weigh 1,259 kg.'

 

Another good comparison might be someone that had a 'CAVE Hatch' and went to a  'CTHE Hatch'.

&

those that had a 'CAVE Estate' and went to a 'CTHE Estate'.

 

I know of one member, but then he went to a Seat Diesel Manual.

[Sparkly]

The remap on my car made initial supercharger wind up and the hand over from turbo to supercharger all more pronounced.

Very interesting, really need to see what these cars graph like on a dyno, as we all know peak figures are for bragging rights, if the CTHE has picked up some mid range gains, the car WILL in all likelihood be faster than a stock CAVE

[Ootohere]

Well it had SEAT showing 'Official' quicker 0-100 km & higher Max speed, from the change to the CTHE.

 

Probably VW told Skoda, 'Do not bother changing any official figures as you change to the new engine,

you are already selling twice as many vRS as the 3 other more expensive Twinchargers.'

Let the 2013 Ibiza look like it is a good value, better looking and slightly faster and more economic and greener Hot Hatch.

**2013 given Kerb/Unladen weigh, 1,259kg and on 215/40 R17, no spare wheel as standard.''**

so just a little heaver than a CTHE vRS Hatch 1,243 kg on 205/40 R17 with a spare as standard,

 Estate 1,313 kg.

 

'VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK'  

Advances in Engineering through manipulating 'Official figures' and Press Releases.

[willias400]

Ha ha!

 

It does make you wonder if each of the VAG brands actually does anything different with this engine or whether its all for the glossy brochures to justify their differing prices etc.  Putting all four on a rolling road would be very interesting.  There's probably little difference.

 

I think the Ibiza was recently the cheapest of them all (before haggling) with the recent £2k savings on it and all of its standard bells and whistles (xenons, climate, auto wipers etc.).  They must have had a few to shift.  Shame I couldn't get my dogs in the back of one though.

[Ootohere]

You can get a 63 plate vRS 5 door hatch, & Estates with Deliver/Demo Mileage for around £14,000 or less,

£12,000-£14,000

if SEAT Dealers are putting out 3 Door Ibiza Cupras for under £15,000 they really are struggling to sell them.

EDIT,

i see one with 10 miles advertised a £5 under £16,000

[sharkrider]

I like all the answers, let me have another guess.... The new polo GTI that has a manual option, is going to use the twincharged engine, and is stated at 190bhp ( minimum) so maybe 195bhp.... Isn't the cthe the same engine? Maybe it is 190bhp minimum

[Ootohere]

Surly the to come in the future Polo GTI is surely getting a Euro 6 Emissions Engine in 2015,

1.6 Turbo without Supercharger & with ACT.

Or who knows, maybe the Engine for the VW but with less tune will appear in the Skoda Mk3 Mabia.

[willias400]

You can get a 63 plate vRS 5 door hatch, & Estates with Deliver/Demo Mileage for around £14,000 or less,

£12,000-£14,000

if SEAT Dealers are putting out 3 Door Ibiza Cupras for under £15,000 they really are struggling to sell them.

EDIT,

i see one with 10 miles advertised a £5 under £16,000

 

Just had a quick nose on the Seat internet configurator.  A new one still has £2k off.  £18,765 list price down to £16,765.  Official on the road of £17,215.  That's with no options etc.  No doubt you could get that down a bit further.  Sorry to go off topic!

[sharkrider]

Surly the to come in the future Polo GTI is surely getting a Euro 6 Emissions Engine in 2015,

1.6 Turbo without Supercharger & with ACT.

Or who knows, maybe the Engine for the VW but with less tune will appear in the Skoda Mk3 Mabia.

I'd read that VAG had already confirmed its a 1.4 twincharger with 190bhp?

[Sparkly]

I'd read that VAG had already confirmed its a 1.4 twincharger with 190bhp?

 

The plot thickens.

[Ootohere]

I read what 'What Car' & Autocar wrote and all the others copied,  magazines and Bloggers,

and maybe some spokesperson for VW confirmed it, but i can not find the Statement from a VW Source,

just one from a Chinese VW insider.

 

No doubt there is a Manual Polo GTI coming with 189 bhp in 2015,

but it seems not to be with the Face Lift Polos you can now order.

 

Autocar's article

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/revised-volkswagen-polo-gti-get-manual-gearbox-option

(it says its  '1.4 engine litre 4 cylinder engine,,,,,, ' we suppose they mean the Twincharger as currently fitted, 

but all 1.4 tsi are 1.4 litre 4 cylinder, same 'Base Engine', just the others have a Turbo & go up to 140ps.)

 

Right now VW are first registering under 100 new Polo GTI DSG a Quarter in the UK,

no idea how many they actually sell as new cars to private buyers,

maybe a Manual Option will help increase that!

 

vrskeith and myself and others asked the Magazines to ask VW if they had resolved the Twinchargers Issues and were going to reimburse owners that had been having problems.

That request seems to have fallen on deaf years.

 

VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK.

'If something fails, move on as though nothing happened and develope something else.

If you do not admit a problem, then there was no problem'.

if i translate it correctly from German.