Fabia mk 11 misfire help

[Pappafox]

Hi  2nd skoda,

 

Although the original fault codes were on cylinder 2 and 3. The low(er) cylinder pressures... sorry I don't have readings were on 2 (lowest) and 1. Cylinder 3 seemed OK.

 

No news on the patient...will chase the garage tomorrow.

[xman]

I was talking to my indie doing the mot on my 16 yr old Alhambra today. He seemed to think (without prompting) that sludged/wrong oil can sometimes cause compression loss, saying that hydraulic lifters can stick and valves dont always close fully. He said that a good flush with thinner oil can sometimes make a big difference.

Might be worth a punt I suppose at not much expense, the engine would probably need a flush anyway.

[Pappafox]

No news to report. Will update asap 

[Pappafox]

Evening all,

 

Ok so the latest. I didn't ask for the diagnostic check as the garage was certain it was the valve guide issue. (Big, big mistake on my part..I know) So the  head has been taken off and the exhaust valves etc repaired. Was told that it was sorted this morning,but mechanic puzzled whilst repairing why cylinder  2 was so sooty. Was planning to collect tomorrow morning. The garage called at just before closing time thinking on reflection that the soot in the cylinder 2 could very well be a broken piston ring! Has anyone any experience of this? Sounds very strange to me on a car that hasn't been thrashed!!

 

 

Was told it means splitting the engine and these engines not supposed to be split. (Think i read that somewhere else on the Briskoda site.)

They could attempt to do this to get to the pistons to replace the rings but it's a risk on my part 

 

The other alternative apparently is to buy a new bottom end ..only available from VAG main dealer. Serious money.

 

Getting nervous now on this whole business!!!

[GeneralPurpose]

Hi Pappafox, yes, as I mentioned earlier in one of my posts, I've seen this many many times on different engine types over the years. Number 2 may well have a broken piston ring. An engine can run seemingly fine like this for some while, not use engine oil, but just be down on power on that cylinder. Sometimes a broken ring makes a ticking noise at idle but often not. It will also contribute or cause the issues like the ones you have reported. Not changing the engine oil for very prolonged periods is often responsible for this type of mechanical failure and the valve seat and guides issues. Of course, the other thing that happens to piston rings is that they stick in their grooves, again causing loss of compression, again due to poor oil change maintenance. You may have one or both of those issues. I'm not trying to frighten you but it's best you know what to expect as this is something you have to deal with one way or the other. I've never split the 1.2htp engine so I'm not sure just how much of a proposition this would be for a successful outcome away from the factory. I'm guessing probably not good to do that as special jigs are required to do it properly, and to get the proper alignment. You could ask the attending technician/s if he has split one before and what the outcome was. A better alternative for a positive outcome is to buy the short engine (the bottom end as you describe it). Do keep posting on this please to update us all. Good luck. 

Edited 11 October, 2014 by Estate Man

[Pappafox]

Estate man thanks,

 

Drat...but not unexpected. Once more your honesty is very much appreciated

 

So my questions now are

 

1. I believe you can only buy the short end from VAG. Any idea of approx cost or part number ?

2. So in effect a "reworked he'd gets put onto a new short engine?

3. Wouldn't it be more effective to put a reconditioned full engine in the beast?

 

The technician reckons he's split the an engine once before and it was a success!!

 

Going out now back this evening.

 

Thanks once again!!

[GeneralPurpose]

Yes the reworked head will be put on to the short engine and then the ancillaries bolted on. It can work out cheaper. It all depends on how good your original head is now as to whether you might want to do that. However, it's nice to have a 'full' engine with everything 'as new' if the funds are available as you do get a better warranty. The factory recon engines are just as new, completely reworked with new everything fitted and specced. I guess it may depend on how happy you are with the car and how long you would like to keep it in the future. I don't have any part numbers for you. Worth checking with a Skoda dealer about cost of the short and full engines. Good luck and thanks for coming back with that info.

[2ndskoda]

Sorry to be a dampener on your situation Pappafox - but two weeks on and still no real progress? All that work done to the head/valves BEFORE finding a potential further problem. I find this difficult to understand.

 

Is the 'mechanic' a trained professional, or is it someone who dabbles in motor mechanics and is doing this on a mates rates favour basis?

Please understand I am not wishing to be a smartass here, or indeed be judgemental or critical - It just seems to be a series of guessology applied here, and I am intrigued by it all. ALSO have they fitted new guides?

Hope you get a good result in the end.

Edited 11 October, 2014 by 2ndskoda

[GeneralPurpose]

I'm afraid whoever is dealing with this sort of engine issue can often have to chase around an engine to find all the faults. You cannot just plug something in and get a readout of what is wrong and it can be a case of some guessology is used. There is no other way. A broken or seized piston ring is not always apparent and there is no way to tell when the valves are not sealing properly. A compression test is almost irrelavent. Even a sooted up cylinder is not a reliable indicator of a mechanical problem down below. However, I always used to prepare the customer for the worst case scenario if investigating this type of engine problem especially where poor oil servicing applies. Poor oil and short journeys buggers up the entire engine irrespective of the miles it's covered. Most techs know this and will often advise a new or recon engine is the best way forward, and it often is!

Edited 11 October, 2014 by Estate Man

[xman]

Wow! That was a "fast" repair? - and we never did get the compression figures?

 

If they've put the head back on, another compression test will show if theres still a problem on no. 2

 

I can't add anything to what estateman has said, except if you read the ssp linked earlier vw state that splitting the block is a no-no. However read the ebay link provided earlier and its sister site www.Justpoloparts.co.uk and you see they offer (under repair services) full guaranteed engine rebuilds for £600 and claim to have done many, so I think it is possible but just requires care and skill.

 

The site also states that valves and worn/stuck piston rings are the usual problems...........

 

I take it the oil has finally been changed?

 

How much is the cost so far? I did warn about costs running away, but if you get a good (and warrantied) repair done then the car should be good for a fair few years (provided you change the oil!)

Edited 11 October, 2014 by xman

[2ndskoda]

You see many people on this forum bemoaning the fact of oil deterioration and grunge etc. See previous posts in this thread.

Vehicles in the last 10/15 years in particular, now have fairly high ratio g/boxes/final drives - in consequence so many people drive around in much too high a gear (especially in town). Result? - engines do not reach their full operating temperatures, engine revs are not enough to produce a proper gas flow. Piston rings do not properly expand and contract - the list goes on and on.

It must be said that going around with a low revving engine (despite what many believe) can and does do a great deal of harm. It really is a classic case of being cruel to be kind.

To get  up to full temperature and generate meaningful engine oil flow throughout all the galleries etc - give it some loud pedal on a regular basis.!!!

 

If I am stood on the pavement, I hear so many cars labouring away in 4th (or even 5th) going around town. Years ago, if anyone did this in an old car - they would pink like crazy, and they would soon change down a gear or two. Today's engine management systems are such that pinking is controlled (audibly) so people unfortunately just carry on oblivious to the stress they are placing upon their engines.

 

If you have had any connection with engine design and gear train calculations you will know (as I have previous reported in this forum) that modern cars are designed to give their best in 3rd gear around town. Result? better running temperatures - better oil flow - better fuel economy.

It always used to be the case that if you removed the oil filler cap - this was the best indicator you could have. A milky white/cream deposit would cling to the cap, and the inside of the rocker box cover would also have build ups of this horrible mess. This was the classic result of the oil being used/run undertemperature.

 

I am surprised that no one ever mentions the availability of ENGINE FLUSHING OIL - Used in the proper way (AS directed by the supplier) will overcome many peoples problems. We used to call this district midwife's oil, as they were a classic case of low speeds in high gears - constantly in a start stop situation, never reaching full operating temperature..

Today's engines are so dependant now on correct oil specification, and proper driving techniques. Sorry to go off the main subject, but with so many mentioning oil - I could not resist putting my two pennyworth forward!

Edited 11 October, 2014 by 2ndskoda

[xman]

I havent seen mayo in an engine since the days of british leyland. I think modern oil and modern engine breather/ventilation systems have more or less eliminated that.

 

IMO the problem is petrol and combustion product contamination caused by frequent cold starts and extended cold run periods.. In the 3 pot, this is aggravated by its low speed efficiency, injectors located in a plastic manifold way away from the inlet valve, and the eternal problem of the need to run rich to heat up the catalytic converter after a cold start.

 

I noticed when I drained the oil from my daughter in laws car - the one I refered to earlier doing 3k per year mainly 2 mile school runs. Athough this was top quality long life oil, the dark brown oil stuck like glue to the bowl sides and didnt drain down like I normally see. This sticky goo, not normally  seen, presumably a mix of part burnt combustion products, petrol and oil.

 

I've also noticed on the 3 pot, when poodling round town, if you turn the engine off for just a minute or two, when you restart it the average fuel consumption leaps down, as if its going through another (part) cold start cycle again.

 

The tsi has a big advantage here over the non direct injection engines.

 

Back to the OP's engine, if its a stuck ring, would flushing oil, new oil etc possibly unstick it? Theres this stuff I buy from toolstation called carburettor cleaner, which is great at removing all that stubborn black/brown carbonated stuff. Spraying that or even penetrating oil down the piston walls and soaking could release the ring?

Edited 11 October, 2014 by xman

[GeneralPurpose]

Absolutely right 2ndskoda, and kind of connected to the op's original post in lots of ways. You hit one of the nails right on the head. This modern tech in our cars leads folk to do things they wouldn't normally do to their engines, especially with the gears and revs. You speak the truth on that point and it's spot on. I've seen white mayo in the rocker cover and on the inside of the oil filler caps on too many cars to mention in recent years. My own 1422cc TDI also developed this on an occassion after I had injured myself at work and was unable to drive a manual car for a year or so. Therefore just my wife was using the car for her commute. Just 5 miles each way. It was far too short a journey to warm up that little diesel, hence the gunge build up. I responded with an oil and filter change even though the car had only covered 4k on that oil. It was full of condensation and gunge was building up. So that qualified as "extreme use" and needed changing. 

 

Hi xman, yes flushing oil can be useful but it's not a good thing to use it too often on modern engines. Some engines can suffer due to it's use so it's something not to do lightly. It's unlikely it wouild help our friend Pappafox.  The problem with seized piston rings is that the piston oil ways behind the piston rings become fully or partially blocked. This is often white gunge and all sorts of other stuff congealed behind the rings. It is baked hard and just won't move without physical intervention. It blocks all oil to the piston rings eventually and the rings seize or break. 

[Pappafox]

Evening all,

 

 

Thanks all for the replies .

 

It's definitely not mates rates!!! This place I've taken it to is supposed to be Ok.

The oil , yes ...and the filter have been changed.

I'm going to the  garage Monday morning to sort out what to do. 

 

I'm really not sure which way to go. Bill is £650+ at the moment four the head job plus new pads, discs battery to add!!

[xman]

Ouch!!

 

Sounds very steep to me! 

 

If its all back together, I would see how it runs. If its OK, then I would consider one of the following....

 

Get shut, trade it in, whatever or ...

 

use a flushing/cleaning product,  something like http://www.forteuk.co.uk/product.php?id=43/Advanced_Formula_Motor_Flush

 and follow instructions carefully.....

 

Then check the compression......

Edited 11 October, 2014 by xman

[Pappafox]

Hi Xman.

 

Yep that's sound advice.

 

I m not going to keep it . 

 

 

Will it still run with a broken piston ring. It's a 15 mile run home!!

[Pappafox]

Going back to costs. £650 is for the head work then on top 140 ish for pads and discs + 45 for a battery!! So £800+ in total

[xman]

It should run at least as well as before and I wont be surprised if it runs ok. The stuck ring (I personally dont think it will be broken) didnt stop it running before, and the major issue of the exhaust valves have been fixed. The ring may not be stuck or broken, thats just speculation. Did they show/give you the old valves? - thats normal practice in such cases. If they can't show you the damaged valves, then I would be very annoyed and a bit suspicious if they did the work properly or fully.

 

Bearing in mind that the info linked earlier you can get a head fully refurbished for £250 and complete engine rebuild for £600 - plus the cost of removing, refitting say £100 - £200, I would say your specialist is pulling your appendage. 

 

http://www.justpoloparts.co.uk/storepage2900605.aspx

 

http://www.justpoloparts.co.uk/VW_Polo_Seat_Ibiza_Skoda_Fabia_12_12v_AZQ_BME_BZG_Cylinder_Head_2002_-_2007/p2859136_12690759.aspx

 

See how it runs tomorrow, sleep on it, don't rush into things, look at all the alternatives and think about the economics of them.

 

If the cars running fine, then ask them for a free compression test. At the price they are charging, that's the least they can do! DONT AUTHORISE ANY MORE PAID WORK until you have had a few days thinking about it.

 

Have a look around your Skoda dealer and see what's on offer if you trade in.....that will put the costs in perspective......

Edited 12 October, 2014 by xman

[Pappafox]

Xman,

 

Thank you very much. You have put things into context.

 

Me thinks I may have been duped somewhat and we will see what tomorrow brings.

 

I agree that my appendage is being pulled and it's one of those tricky situations now where I just want to get the car back with the least expense and then sort out our options.

My better half is really upset and hasn't slept very well the last two nights!

 

Are we likely to get the engine management light coming on ant it going into limp mode if the compression is down?

 

I will let you all know what happens.

 

Cheers

 

Pappafox

[xman]

Like the tea shirt says, stay calm, don't panic.

 

Test the car out, make sure they reset the light beforehand (free of charge!). Ask them to see the old parts..…and whether they checked or will check the compression after the job was done and how it compared with the pre job figures. Don't be afraid to ask for it in writing...

 

There's a good chance that the car will run fine. If that's the case, I think its worth using the forte advanced formula motor flush or wynns engine flush. It only costs about £10 plus you'll need another oil/filter change. They claim to free stuck piston rings as well as clean all the gum/lacquer that causes these problems.

Edited 12 October, 2014 by xman

[Pappafox]

Thanks agin. I feel like Captain Manwairing!!!

 

The flush looks good so I will try it out. I will change the oil and filter too. What was the brand you recommend again for oil?

 

Nice to see someone else burning the midnight oil...if you pardon the pun!!

[GeneralPurpose]

Are we likely to get the engine management light coming on ant it going into limp mode if the compression is down?

 

I will let you all know what happens.

 

Cheers

 

Pappafox

 

IF the piston ring is seized or broken then yes the engine management lights will likely come back on as you drive. But it depends on lots of things. It may not. Xman's advice is good so I'd go along with it. Can't do any harm. Let us know how things go. Good luck!

[Pappafox]

Black arm bands at the ready!!

 

So picked up the car this morning and asked to see the old parts .Low and behold told the head is sent away and refurbed etc. So no old parts to see!!

Asked if they had done a compression test before phoning to ask about sticking new pads and discs on a car that they told me was OK in the morning!

No satisfactory answer. Also why a new battery? Told because the old one had gone dead after being uncoupled and left overnight. 

 

Found out no compression test had been done after refitting the head  so the reason they think a piston problem now is due to black dirt on no 2 cylinder.

They admitted it wasn't sorted and could try at my risk for them to do the rings etc.

 

Anyway, I declined to let any more work be done, managed to get the cost of a battery knocked off and had the old one put back on. 

 

Result - paid a bill of £800+ and no cure. Exactly the same problem. 

 

I drove 16 miles back home at under 3,250 rpm and no engine light. Drove the last part uphill and gave it some revs and of course we have the light on and limp mode.

The engine still judders.

 

 

I lifted the cover and noticed that the coil pack on no 2 cylinder is different to the one in went into the garage with!!!! It has a bosch sicker on it and I replaced all three with non bosch coil packs. Trying to get hold of the garage to ask where the original is !!

 

I have in my garage the three originals which I'm going try later this evening. Last ditch hope!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So 

[Jabozuma]

Wow, impressive I must say, the amount of BS they are peddling you - I'd ask for the old head to be put back in and my money back - cowboys.

Wonder how many other parts got mysteriously "replaced" for some unknown reason. Stinks of fraud this whole affair...

[Richf]

I still remain unconvinced that this isn't an electrical issue , ie something is breaking down under load.

Of course loads of others will no doubt put this fault down to poor servicing or terminal engine fault but as I said , I remain unconvinced