4-wheel alignment spoils handling

[nickcoll]

I have just had two new tyres on the front of my 2.0TDi SE 4x4 (with RRP) first registered Dec 2013 because of a puncture and had the alignment checked and adjusted at the same time. However since it has been done the car's previous excellent handling has definitely been spoiled. Many people might not notice the difference, but it seems to me that there is much less feel than before, and the car is just less positive and confidence-inspiring. It may be less grippy, but this is hard to say as I don't feel ready to drive it in the same way as before.

 

The adjustments that were carried out were quite significant according to the record sheet. In particular it looks to me like the previous front wheel toe-in was changed to toe-out (although depending on the significance of the + or - it might be the other way round). I would have thought that this is quite a big deal in terms of the way the car will respond on the road.

 

The tyre depot were using a system which is set up by specifying the model of car and this was set to "Skoda-UE Octavia Est 4x4 TDI", which does sound roughly correct. One thing I do notice is that the RRP fitted to mine is not mentioned, and clearly this may make a difference; although probably not enough to switch from toe-in to toe-out!

 

Even if the settings the car now has are correct I have to say that I far preferred it as it was. I assume the previous settings were correct from new (part of the PDI to check them?), and although there may have been some drift over the first 15,000 miles I find it very hard to imagine it could have been quite as much as it seems to have been.

 

I would be very grateful for any comments - I have attached the sheet showing the alignment and if someone knows what the official settings should be for my exact model then it would be very helpful if they could post them here!

 

Edit - I tried attaching the scan using the facility in the post editor but for some reason it doesn't appear in the post. I will therefore attach it in the more conventional way:

 

Edited 27 December, 2014 by nickcoll

[Ootohere]

Are they the exact same tyres as replacement, Brand, size compound and set at the same pressures,

& is the Greenness off them, ie worn in a little with the newness gone?

 

The PDI does not check the Alignments & the Fitter or Technician driving the car to fuel it might not 

even notice misalignment from the factory that many right hand drive cars arriving in the UK from the VAG group have.

(Check out 'Pulling to the left' threads on Briskoda.)

Edited 27 December, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[TeflonTom]

If they've set it up to have a permanent toe out I'm not surprised it's skippy, I'm surprised you can drive it in a straight line tbh, 99 cars out of 100 will have a toe in, a tiny amount so that the natural drag takes up the 'slack' in the drivetrain/bushes etc to pull the wheels back out straight ahead in normal driving.

[nickcoll]

@goneoffSKi - yes they are the exact same tyres - Continental PremiumContact 5s which were excellent previously, at least in warm weather. Not quite so good when the temperature drops. I can't say whether Continental have changed the compound they use between the original and new tyres but I assume not. Also they are set at the same pressures (I have checked this) although the tyre pressure has not in the past made a great difference to the feel of the car on the road when I have adjusted them for different loads etc.

 

Certainly a fitter/technician would probably not have noticed if the alignment was wrong, as the car drove extremely well. Hopefully that is because the alignment was previously correct whereas it is now wrong...!

 

@TeflonTom - I assume it now has toe out although it is hard to say for certain without knowing how the chart works. As you can see the front wheels have changed from -2.70 to +0.60. I assume that means they have gone from toeing in to toeing out, but it COULD be the opposite. I am pretty certain they have gone from one to the other, and given that it felt great before and feels much less good now I suspect that it is now wrong, but it would be great to hear from someone who knows how to interpret the chart.

[littleade]

Personally I'd contact SUK to find out what they think in should be. I'm no expert but I've never heard of cars being set up toe out before.

[999pooch]

Toe in will generally give you more straight line stability.

Toe out will generally give better / sharper turn in.

I had a slight toe out on my last S4 and had it adjusted to a slight toe in to remove a tramlining problem.

I would get hold of the allignment specs and compare them yourself.

If you are still unhappy have them check it again or take it somewhere else to have it independantly checked

[Genoa1893]

Perhpas I can't correctly read the sheet, but I can't figure why it shows such asymmetrical settings between right and left, also on the rear axle.

 

For an example of settings on a scooby: http://www.scoobynet.com/918196-geometry-settings-2.html

 

Besides I must say I hardly experienced any drift on such settings, although with a brisk drive.

[DGW]

What equipment did they use to carry out the alignment?

[Smeghead]

I had a slight toe out on my last S4 and had it adjusted to a slight toe in to remove a tramlining problem.

 

Interesting observation.  I have a tram-lining problem (fairly minor but noticeable) on another car which this might cure.  I will get it checked and maybe try a little toe-in if it's currently toeing out..

Edited 27 December, 2014 by Smeghead

[andyvee]

Jeez - your camber angles are all over the place!

 

I'd get that taken back and the job done properly!

 

Find somewhere with a Hunter rig and get a proper job done that actually shows you where you are in regards to the manufacturers tolerances - you want to be bang in the middle of the tolerance band on all 4 corners for toe and camber, with equal values each side on the same axle.

[jefalad]

nickoll, the convention for toe settings is that toe-in is positive, toe-out negative. Two adjustments seem to have been done, front axle was toed-out and is now slightly toed-in, rear axle has had left side toe adjusted to equalise with right side and overall has increased toe-in. These new settings may explain the difference you feel but another factor is fitting a new pair of tyres to the front (presuming the rear tyres are OE).

Small amounts of front axle toe-out will typically enhance turn in and make the car feel more responsive to steering inputs. Toe-in will cause the car to feel less "pointy" but add to straightline stability and perhaps feel as though there is a little more understeer. Put new tyres on the front wheels only and the front to rear tread depth disparity will cause an understeering effect due to the greater tread flex occurring at the front. Add these effects together and there is no doubt that the car will feel different.

I recommend that you try swopping tyres/wheels front to rear. This alone should improve the feel if there is an appreciable amount of wear on the OE tyres. One step further would be give the front axle a little toe-out. I would leave the rear toe as it is as this will help counter the slight "oversteering" effect of putting the new tyres on the rear.

[octavia55]

I was always taught that regardless of toe in or toe out the object is that when travelling straight the front wheels are straight and true, front wheel drive all always used to be toe out because when the wheel were driven they pulled the wheels in, therefore pulling them straight. Rear wheel drive was toe in because the car pushed the wheels out when moving thus pulling the wheels straight.

The manufacture will set the tracking so that when their car is driven forward the wheels will be straight. If not one of the edges of the tyre will scrub and wear. Different suspension setups will need differ settings so that when going forward the try's are dead straight, that's why all cars are different. Stick to the manufactures specification, they designed the car and moving away from their specification will cause problems.

[andyvee]

Does anyone have the recommended toe and camber settings for the O3?

 

I think caster settings can be ignored for now, as it is a long winded process to adjust them anyway by trying to move the top mounts, and there normally isn't much play anyway.

 

Just seems odd that the fronts were -1.9 and -0.8 and are now both +0.3, and rears were -0.3 and +0.8 and are now +0.6 and +0.7.

 

The camber angles are worrying though - the near side front is +ve and the off side -ve, at least the rears are both -ve, but with a very big difference between them.

 

Just goes to show you can have all the tools, but if not utilised correctly you can make things worse!

[brad1.8T]

I've done thousands of alignments & that chart is near unreadable for me. 

Is the small number the "before" & the larger bold number the "after".  Where's the "this what to aim for" bit?

 

Without knowing the correct specs I'll take a guess & assume they aren't far off the 1Z specs.

 

If I've interpreted it right then the Caster is about right but it would be nicer if the figures were reversed as that setup would tend to make it drift Left.

 

The Camber should be negative 0.68 degrees +- 0.5.  The RHS is great but the LHS is fubar.  I'm surprised the vehicle doesn't drift left quite noticeably.  You've only got 0.6-0.25 = 0.35 to play with so they'll need to shift the subframe (and try & do something with the caster at the same time) so that you've got -0.25 on the LHS & -0.15 on the RHS.  Tell them to undo the top mounts & try and shift them inwards a bit (you might bet 1mm of movement) and undo the 3x lower ball joint nuts & try & lever them outwards & retighten.  You want -ve camber both sides with a fraction more on the Left.

 

Toe spec is 2.1mm inwards (total - call it 1mm per side).  My gut feel says it should be toeing out about 1mm but at those small increments it's a personal thing & depends on how lively you want the steering.  A mate of mine that has been aligning for 30 years reckons that if you run near 1 degree negative camber you should be running about 5mm total toe-in but I can't get my head around that.

 

At the back there's way too much -ve camber on the RHS.  The spec is something stupid like -1.75 +-0.5 but you'll probably get saw-toothing unless you pedal really hard through corners.  I assume that MK3s still have adjustable rear camber?  If so, aim for -1degree on each side.

Toe is inwards 2.1mm +-2.1mm.  If you want the rear a bit lively & the car turning in quickly then aim for closer to zero (even a bit outwards for the experimenters) but where it is should be OK for most people

 

In summary, that's not a great alignment or a very readable print-out.

Hope you have some success with the alignment guy.

[nickcoll]

I am going to call the local Skoda dealer first thing tomorrow to see how soon they can do a new alignment on the car. It certainly doesn't feel correct now, and as some above have commented the geometry does seem to be all over the place, certainly as far as the camber angles are concerned. I wonder whether this could imply that the measuring gear was not fixed to the car correctly, as I seriously doubt that the suspension has gone so far out over only 15,000 miles of driving it. I have not driven over any kerbs in that time or anything else that might have caused any problems with the components.

 

The one thing that is an interesting possibility is that from the factory the car might have had toe-out rather than toe-in, which would explain the great grip and turn-in the car has always had, and maybe its at-the-limit balance towards slight oversteer (although extremely controllable). This did not come with any apparent disadvantages in terms of lack of straight line stability or abnormal wear on the tyres (they would certainly have lasted another few thousand miles if not for the puncture).

 

Once I have got some accurate information about how the car is currently set up, and how Skoda say it should be set up, I will think about what to do next - when I know how much front toe the car should have I may see if I can get the car set up with some front toe out as it felt great with the previous amount!

[nickcoll]

@brad1.8T - sorry my last post crossed with yours. I believe the small number shows what it WAS and the large number what is IS after adjustment.

 

The car does not drift or tramline at all, but basically has less feel to the steering and I would say the turn-in is not as good (although hard to tell because the feel is so different) and the car does feel like it is inclined to understeer in a way that it just didn't before - although again it is just less positive altogether than it was.

[pipsyp]

I think half the problem is that more and more places are now furnished with 4 wheel alignment equipment but the staff using it are either ill-trained or just dont particularly care about getting it right.

Having had a bad experience of 4 wheel alignment with a VW main dealer before i dont really trust anyone to do it....my rule of thumb if my car is driving well and not killing tyres I wouldnt contemplate having this carried out to potentially make the car drive/handle worse rather than improve things.

People will have differing opinions on this and this is just my take.

I'd recommend taking it to an independent tyre fitters with a hunter rig or similar where someone here can vouch for the capabilities of the outfit and get it put right.

Edited 28 December, 2014 by pipsyp

[andyvee]

Drury Lane Garage Services know their stuff

http://www.drurylaneservices.com/wheel-alignmenttracking/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[nickcoll]

Latest on this is that I went to the local Skoda dealer and they were fairly helpful, giving me a printout from the workshop manual of the settings for my particular vehicle. Cutting to the chase, the tracking should be set to +10' with a tolerance of +/- 10' - ie anything from parallel to +20'. Now I think that the chart I have gives the values in mm, and +0.6mm for 16" wheels converts to 5', so if this is all correct the tracking has been set to less toe-in than the specification.

 

The "before" setting was -2.7mm, which would convert to 23' of toe-out, well out of specification. But it definitely did give a lovely feel to the steering.

 

Having driven around on the current settings quite a bit today, and having got used to the new feel of the steering, my view is that the grip is probably about the same but it just doesn't feel as good. In particular the car just feels like it is understeering more in that I feel like I need to use more lock for a given corner. The positive side of the change is that the car does feel a bit more stable in a straight line, and is more forgiving of rough road surfaces; although these were not things that I would have criticised previously.

 

I am pretty convinced that the car had toe-out from new because the change when the alignment was adjusted was so noticeable and I don't remember the car ever feeling like that before. I checked and alignment is definitely not checked in the PDI - they say that the cars are perfectly set up in the factory but I am not convinced this is the case!

 

The rear track has the same specification as the front track, and the maximum deviation from the front is meant to be 12'. The rear toe-in has been adjusted to be greater than the front, but is within the specification for this difference if I am reading it correctly.

 

I won't mention the camber settings in any detail although they are not quite within the spec I have been provided.

 

I have now found that some of the local STS TyrePros centres have Hunter machines and so I will take the car into one in the New Year to get it properly set up. I visited one today although I did not have time for an alignment, but in discussion with them they said that they would be able to adjust everything that can be adjusted on the car (including camber as well as tracking). They knew about the IRS on the 4x4 (and VRS for that matter) and knew what they could do with it, so all of that is hopeful for a better result than the previous place I used. I asked whether they would be prepared to set the tracking up to parallel (since that is within the spec) and they said that they would, so I think that is what I will try.