It's in German, the PD is finished in 2007.

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/werkstatt/0,1518,379240,00.html

What is replacing it?

From what I understand, they will phase it out and replace with Common-Rail. It looks like it is to expensive to manufacture 2 type of (PD and Common-Rail) diesel engines.

Sounds odd being as Mitsubishi and Chrysler have just bought the PD engine from VAG to put in their new models.

Mind you good way to make money, flog your old stuff before you bring out the new.

No doubt it will incorporate piezo electric injector technology for super fine control.

Is there any way they could butcher the TSI principle and use it for diesels?

The PD engine is fantastic, long may it continue after VAG bin it.

It says that emission are/can be better with common rail and that PD is less refined. I think it says that PD is more expensive to manufacture than CR.

Sounds odd being as Mitsubishi and Chrysler have just bought the PD engine from VAG to put in their new models.

Mind you good way to make money' date=' flog your old stuff before you bring out the new.[/quote']

Strange about Chrysler buying PD engines from VAG though eh? you'd think being in the mercedes group they'd use the merc engines!!

Hopefully they might put a PD in the new Chrysler 300c as the one i'm probably gonna buy early next year has a Merc 3.0v6 diesel in it - A bit overkill for a taxi really

Strange about Chrysler buying PD engines from VAG though eh? you'd think being in the mercedes group they'd use the merc engines!!

I think I read in Autocar that the Merc engines are physically too big to fit in the engine bay so they had to look elsewhere and VAG were able to provide engines that would fit.

Plus the smaller Merc diesels are neither powerful, quiet nor refined. They only get good about half way up the range.

From what I can gather from Google, all of the above is correct, but the main thing seems to be that the technology to make CR engines Euro V-compliant already exists, so it couldn't justify developing systems to make PD engines Euro V-compliant, when it can presumably 'buy in' the technology for its CR engines...

Shame, really but business is business. For all their mid-range grunt, I doubt you can find many new cars with an 8v petrol engine, for example...

But isnt the PD more fuel efficient than the CR ?

I thought the PD engines were a step up from common rail, which is why they developed them! learn something new everyday.

Concord was a step up from other passenger airlines - They binned that too! :thumbdwn:

But isnt the PD more fuel efficient than the CR ?

Quite possibly at the moment, although engines are getting better all the time of course. I guess VAG found themselves ploughing a lonely furrow, realising that CR development was catching up in terms of power output etc. (primarily the French I think - the Japanese are WAY behind AFAIK, despite what their ads might say)

I thought the PD engines were a step up from common rail, which is why they developed them! learn something new everyday.

IIRC, PD and CR were VAG's and PSA's (Peugeot/Citroen) respective answers to the problem of getting past the 100-ish bhp ceiling reached in old-skool turbo diesels. Up until recently, PD led the way in terms of output, and CR was a bit smoother and quieter. What with the Euro V regs coming in (Euro V compliant CR engines are already available - see previous post), and the fashion of diesel engines in executive barges, the manufacturers have to supply the 'cleaner' technology, and the punters want the quieter engines... PD engines are also more expensive to manufacture apparently, and that would have been another nail in the coffin in VAG's eyes.

PD may well have got back into the lead had VAG not dropped the idea, but instead it's the end. Like Simon said, Concorde may have been a 'superior' airliner, but economics (and safety) killed it. Two other analogies might be Betamax and Minidisc - they're better respectively than VHS and CD, but because of Sony's parsimonious approach to licensing, both died out fairly quickly...

Quite possibly at the moment, although engines are getting better all the time of course. I guess VAG found themselves ploughing a lonely furrow, realising that CR development was catching up in terms of power output etc. (primarily the French I think - the Japanese are WAY behind AFAIK, despite what their ads might say)

I'm wouldn't be so sure about the japs, they may be relative latecomers to the diesel market but their engines are very good, have you driven an Accord ictdi? very nice drive, and there is a 170bhp version of the Toyota D4D engine for the Avensis early next year, it will also be in the new Lexus is200, The D4D is a very nice, refined all aluminium engine, and with 170bhp/diesel torque and no weight penalty over a petrol it's definately one to watch!!

I'm wouldn't be so sure about the japs, they may be relative latecomers to the diesel market but their engines are very good, have you driven an Accord ictdi? very nice drive, and there is a 170bhp version of the Toyota D4D engine for the Avensis early next year, it will also be in the new Lexus is200, The D4D is a very nice, refined all aluminium engine, and with 170bhp/diesel torque and no weight penalty over a petrol it's definately one to watch!!

Never driven the Accord i-CDTi, but have raced one (on a private road, obviously) Matched my Fabia stride for stride, but of course the engine's 15% bigger for more or less the same output, with the increased emissions etc. that come from the larger engine... May be smoother, but that's back to the CR/PD debate...

Can't really be so dismissive of Toyota's 2.2 175 bhp D-CAT, though. It's only a little more powerful than the 160bhp 1.9 PD unit that's been in the Ibiza / Leon Cupra for a little while now, and again it is a larger engine. BUT, the lower compression ratio thing produces less noise, and being able to use a lighter engine is good technologically, I guess the biggest thing is the fuel consumption, which is supposed to be really good... EVEN SO, diesel engines are heavy for a reason, so I fear they might be cutting their noses off to spite their faces... (Not that VAG aren't guilty of the same thing, perhaps!)

At the end of the day, you're right they're catching up, and considering their record on car development that can't be a bad thing. Still think their ads are a bit precocious just at the moment, however!

CR can be made to be real smooth, whereas PD is always grumbly and more so the greater the output.

People dont want tractor engines, they want refinement which is where CR wins hands down.

The writing was on the wall the moment Audi produced the new A6 with an all new 3.0 CR diesel.

Can't really be so dismissive of Toyota's 2.2 175 bhp D-CAT, though.

I know the 2.0 D4D is bloody awful! It's the works car I always avoid if I'm going out.

Quite possibly at the moment' date=' although engines are getting better all the time of course. I guess VAG found themselves ploughing a lonely furrow, realising that CR development was catching up in terms of power output etc. (primarily the French I think - the Japanese are WAY behind AFAIK, despite what their ads might say)

IIRC, PD and CR were VAG's and PSA's (Peugeot/Citroen) respective answers to the problem of getting past the 100-ish bhp ceiling reached in old-skool turbo diesels. Up until recently, PD led the way in terms of output, and CR was a bit smoother and quieter. What with the Euro V regs coming in (Euro V compliant CR engines are already available - see previous post), and the fashion of diesel engines in executive barges, the manufacturers have to supply the 'cleaner' technology, and the punters want the quieter engines... PD engines are also more expensive to manufacture apparently, and that would have been another nail in the coffin in VAG's eyes.

PD may well have got back into the lead had VAG not dropped the idea, but instead it's the end. Like Simon said, Concorde may have been a 'superior' airliner, but economics (and safety) killed it. Two other analogies might be Betamax and Minidisc - they're better respectively than VHS and CD, but because of Sony's parsimonious approach to licensing, both died out fairly quickly...[/quote']

The fact that the Japanese are finally taking Diesel seriously is wonderful. Now finally, you can have Toyota/Honda levels of reliability and dealer service and a decent diesel, it's been a long time coming.

Oh, the Concorde wasn't killed off by safety in itself, it was killed off by the financial situation of Air France, the fact they had already destroyed 2 and nearly crashed a third. BA, who on the other hand had a good safety record despite their fleet having flown twice as many flights, lost a stunningly large number of their regular clients in the World Trade Centre attack - then Airbus stopped supporting the type before Air France caused another hull loss which immediately grounded them all.

Never driven the Accord i-CDTi, but have raced one (on a private road, obviously) Matched my Fabia stride for stride, but of course the engine's 15% bigger for more or less the same output, with the increased emissions etc. that come from the larger engine... May be smoother, but that's back to the CR/PD debate...

Thats not bad going then if the larger car carying all the extra weight was matching you!!

Can't really be so dismissive of Toyota's 2.2 175 bhp D-CAT' date=' though. It's only a little more powerful than the 160bhp 1.9 PD unit that's been in the Ibiza / Leon Cupra for a little while now, and again it is a larger engine. BUT, the lower compression ratio thing produces less noise, and being able to use a lighter engine is good technologically, I guess the biggest thing is the fuel consumption, which is supposed to be really good... EVEN SO, diesel engines are heavy for a reason, so I fear they might be cutting their noses off to spite their faces... (Not that VAG aren't guilty of the same thing, perhaps!)

[/quote']

I guess we will have to wait and see how reliable they are, knowing the japs though i'd be very suprised if they had many problems!

At the end of the day' date=' you're right they're catching up, and considering their record on car development that can't be a bad thing. Still think their ads are a bit precocious just at the moment, however![/quote']

Couldn't agree more, especialy the Honda radio ads, nearly fall asleep everytime I hear one :drive: :sleeping: :Yikes: :amb: :nurse:

Two other analogies might be Betamax and Minidisc - they're better respectively than VHS and CD, but because of Sony's parsimonious approach to licensing, both died out fairly quickly...

Not quite true. Minidisc isn't up to the same standard (sound quality wise) as CD. The original Betamax was far superior to VHS and continued to be into the 90's.

Never driven the Accord i-CDTi' date=' but have raced one (on a private road, obviously) Matched my Fabia stride for stride, but of course the engine's 15% bigger for more or less the same output, with the increased emissions etc. that come from the larger engine... May be smoother, but that's back to the CR/PD debate...

Can't really be so dismissive of Toyota's 2.2 175 bhp D-CAT, though. It's only a little more powerful than the 160bhp 1.9 PD unit that's been in the Ibiza / Leon Cupra for a little while now, and again it is a larger engine. BUT, the lower compression ratio thing produces less noise, and being able to use a lighter engine is good technologically, I guess the biggest thing is the fuel consumption, which is supposed to be really good... EVEN SO, diesel engines are heavy for a reason, so I fear they might be cutting their noses off to spite their faces... (Not that VAG aren't guilty of the same thing, perhaps!)

At the end of the day, you're right they're catching up, and considering their record on car development that can't be a bad thing. Still think their ads are a bit precocious just at the moment, however![/quote']

I test drove an OctyII 2.0 TDI and Honda Accord i-CDTi on the same day. The Honda was quieter and smoother than the Octy but it was very petrol like and couldn't touch the octy for midrange pull. Equipment levels of the Honda were pitiful in comparison with the Octy. Both felt like good quality inside but the Octy feels like an integrated well thought out, well equiped package inside whereas the Honda feels like someone has glued a few extras in at the last minute to compete with the rivals.

Not quite true. Minidisc isn't up to the same standard (sound quality wise) as CD.

Weren't pre-recorded mini-disc essentially small CDs in plastic cases though?

I would concur the magnetic recordable ones fall a bit short of accuracy compared with CDs though...

Rob.

Weren't pre-recorded mini-disc essentially small CDs in plastic cases though?

I would concur the magnetic recordable ones fall a bit short of accuracy compared with CDs though...

Rob.

Minidisc has always been an optical format. Pre-recorded discs are the same as blank discs but encoded so that your minidisc player can tell the difference as part of the copy protection system.

Yes they are effectively small cd's but in order to fit a whole album onto a disk, a different high quality compression system is used which is slightly more lossy than that used for cds thus effecting sound quality.

I test drove an OctyII 2.0 TDI and Honda Accord i-CDTi on the same day. The Honda was quieter and smoother than the Octy but it was very petrol like and couldn't touch the octy for midrange pull. Equipment levels of the Honda were pitiful in comparison with the Octy. Both felt like good quality inside but the Octy feels like an integrated well thought out, well equiped package inside whereas the Honda feels like someone has glued a few extras in at the last minute to compete with the rivals.

Hmmm, funnily enough i've currently got an OctyII 1.9 DSG estate as a courtesy car for a few days, I personaly would have put your comment about the Honda feeling like they glued on the extras with the Octy!

There's a few things that aren't thought out properly or just poorly executed, I may be being picky though but I found the electric window controls dont fall straight to hand, they are set too far back, the lever for raising/lowering the seat is not easily accesable its too cramped up next to the door, the DSG lever shifts to the wrong side for my likeing, when you stick it in the manual position you have to push it to the left, away from yourself, i'd prefer it to pull to the right towards your legs, I guess it's designed for LHD vehicle predomenantly tho. the air con/climate dials feel too flimsy and the plasticy sunglasses holder creaks on a brand new car, also the section of dashboard behind the top centre dash cubby hole doesnt look right, to many lumps and angles that dont sit together properly so looks very poor.

however, overall I do quite like it, the above are mainly niggles but they'd do my head in if I owned one, I do like the puddle lights in the mirrors, the one touch indicators and the DSG box is pretty nice despite the lever flicking to the wrong side, its fairly comfy and feels solid and well put together, the 'stream' stereo sounds ok for a standard fit, ride is quite good and steering feels sharp, 1.9 has plently of grunt especialy in sport mode on the gearbox, The only thing with the DSG (i know you can change manually) is it doesn't seem to use the engines torque, and seem to rely on revving the engine as you would a petrol car, guess you wouldn't notice if you didn't drive a manual deisel regularly though.