World Super Bikes & Super SPort 300 series

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

The mt07's twin is supposed to be good. Its also small and light.      Depends what you want from it. The R3 does look fun if you think you wont out grow 40bhp before long

 

Down the lanes is its home territory.   Due to it light weight, it feels like it has absolutely negligible weight for changing direction which even the SV felt good but the Fazer 600 felt top heavy for handling and engine characteristics.

 

R3, in standard form, will do 110 if one does a bit of a crouch, 115/120 with a re-gear but i tend to roll off when it indicates 90 or so as I need to drive for my job and really do not want a ticket.  

 

Of the 30 or so bikes I have owned it is one of the best, up there with a Proddy racing T250 Hustler,   Always like the XJ550s/XJ600s, narrow, lightish.  CB900s etc just never felt so in control as these fun lightweights and hopefully lots more racing goods to come. A 400cc big bore kit would be interesting but no doubt the rest of the system would be hard to uprate ie fuel system.  Or one could go straight to forced induction...

 

      

 

https://www.morebikes.co.uk/23066/supercharged-2016-yamaha-r3-built-and-revealed/ 

[fabiamk2SE]

It doesnt really make financial sense to me to chuck that sort of money at a 40bhp bike. Its money the owner will never get back and its still only 60bhp. 

 

One of the old 400's would make more sense to me. 

 

Or just buy an r6. Theyre small and light too, with 3 times the peak power of the 3 

[lol-lol]

12 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

It doesnt really make financial sense to me to chuck that sort of money at a 40bhp bike. Its money the owner will never get back and its still only 60bhp. 

 

One of the old 400's would make more sense to me. 

 

Or just buy an r6. Theyre small and light too, with 3 times the peak power of the 3 

 

I just found the R6 and R1 agony to ride. They are designed to win WEB etc and if you are less than 6 foot they may suit but for those of us above 6 foot they are just too small where the R3 is comfortable.

 

As we know 3 times the power does not even add up to 30% better acceleration and the off the shelf R3 is just a starting point and needs a good few hundred pounds to get it to something proper.  Reading the reports on the new R6 it also needs modifying to make it work and it is still too small for me.

Edited 4 August, 2017 by lol-lol

[fabiamk2SE]

The R6 needs reflashing i think. Euro 4 has crippled it. 

 

Not 30% better off the line maybe but the difference is on the move. Rolling on at any speed and in faster overtakes. Also aside from the R6.. not having to thrash to get past things etc

[lol-lol]

16 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

The R6 needs reflashing i think. Euro 4 has crippled it.     Not 30% better off the line maybe but the difference is on the move. Rolling on at any speed and in faster overtakes. Also aside from the R6.. not having to thrash to get past things etc

 

I would contend that the R6 you do have to thrash to get past traffic, unlike the R1 that breezes past.

 

R6 roll-on times have always been a lot worse despite its clear ability to do some good lap times compared to the thous.  Hyper-link makes some interesting reading i think  No R3 but the KTM 390 is a very similar level of performance.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcycle-performance-data-and-specifications-motorcyclist-magazine

 

Spending £11K on a R6, and then having to spend another £1K to make it as it should be when one could have had a much better R1 for a grand or so more.  

 

600cc class seems on the wane with riders going from 350 to 1,000 cc.  Whether it is World Super Sport 600 or Moto2 it always seems the least interesting and followed class.

 

Academic for me and most 6 footer plus as these proddy bikes do fit in my personal experience and much feedback on the interweb.  Some good improvements on the 2017 R6 but still the frame size is the same sadly.   

 

Edited 5 August, 2017 by lol-lol

[fabiamk2SE]

There are other bikes than the sports category though  

 

i think 300-400 quid will sort the R6. Just like flashing any other bike but theres more gains to be had. I paid 300 to have the Tracer flashed. Improves it no end. Fuelling is so smooth i can roll on in 5th gear at 25mph and pull past everything. Not record breaking on paper but real world useability. 

 

Horses for courses isnt it. People like different things (:  

[lol-lol]

46 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

There are other bikes than the sports category though  

i think 300-400 quid will sort the R6. Just like flashing any other bike but theres more gains to be had. I paid 300 to have the Tracer flashed. Improves it no end. Fuelling is so smooth i can roll on in 5th gear at 25mph and pull past everything. Not record breaking on paper but real world useability. 

Horses for courses isnt it. People like different things (:  

 

Aye, the key thing is we love the experience of riding, the thrill etc.

 

The R3 was a bit farty in the first few hundred miles but seems to have got a bit better as it has distance under its belt.  The occasional tank of Tesco Momentum, as it sips fuel at about 65 mpg, despite having its neck rung half the time, also seem to help.

 

I think the R6 will need the Cat removing to be right.  The Japanese manufacturers of cars and motorcycles are suppose to be making their ECUs not hackable, changeable and I am not too sure where the warranty stands with a change in ECU during the warranty period.      

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Aye, the key thing is we love the experience of riding, the thrill etc.

 

The R3 was a bit farty in the first few hundred miles but seems to have got a bit better as it has distance under its belt.  The occasional tank of Tesco Momentum, as it sips fuel at about 65 mpg, despite having its neck rung half the time, also seem to help.

 

I think the R6 will need the Cat removing to be right.  The Japanese manufacturers of cars and motorcycles are suppose to be making their ECUs not hackable, changeable and I am not too sure where the warranty stands with a change in ECU during the warranty period.      

 

 

 

Hi,

 

That's exactly it, the love of riding - to me I would be so far outside my comfort zone even using half the power of a 600cc machine it would take away the fun.

 

You can look an ecu but the power commander piggy back type device can adjust the timing and fuelling looking at rage crankshaft sensor/ rpm. Piggy back devices will always exist as ecu's are calibrated with emissions regulations in mind. For example, the Kim rc390 is said to be quite difficult to ride at low rpm' s and the power commander can adjust for this.

 

That's why I think around 40 bhp would be about right as long as the machine fits me. From what I read a 600cc sports machine is smaller than the r3.

 

The way forward for me is to spend a day on a training school bike and if all goes well look for a machine in the depths of winter

[fabiamk2SE]

The only 2 ways the dealership can tell that the bikes been flashed are..

1, theres no sensor in the exhaust as they run open loop if flashed properly. (you can just screw the sensor back in though and it will be okay for a short time. Will eventually knacker the sensor as it'll block up but that doesnt really matter.)

2, actually checking the emissions.

 

They can't tell that its been flashed by plugging in the diagnostics computer. 

 

Also, power commanders apparently don't work properly on newer bikes as the ECU is constantly fighting it trying to change how it burns, due to the closed loop. Flashing is a much more reliable and efficient way of doing it. 

 

It probably would be better with the cat removed on the R6.. but thats a good excuse for an aftermarket exhaust . 

[punyXpress]

On 04/08/2017 at 15:44, john2017 said:

I might take a refresher day at a training school soon as I haven't ridden since about 2007.

 

Best wishes,

 

John

Try i2i Motorcycle Academy.

Their courses seem a bit 'mickey-mouse' but are great fun and teach you a lot, including how to think about what you're doing.

[CWARD]

@john2017 Trying to find a modern bike that brings back memories of the old 2 strokes will be a tall order. Modern bikes are so linear in their power delivery until you start to remapping and tinkling with the breathing even then a 4 stroke will never have the madness of a smoker and none of that delicious smell of Castrol R.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a small bike unless I was much younger and the insurance costs where stopping me owning a bigger bike. I would rather have the extra torque of a bigger engine to give me a safer boost of speed for overtaking than commitment needed only a smaller bike to do the same. Unless you're wanting a sports bike then have a good look around, for sheer fun it's hard to beat a Supermoto but if you want to any kinds of distances it will tiresome as will a small sportsbike. Whatever you get, it you that's in control of the bikes power with your right wrist. Totally agree with 

 

The emissions on modern bikes is a pain with the mapping so lean in low revs that it creates the hunting, more noticeable in V twins like the KTM than parallels, 3 or 4 cylinder bikes, and makes riding around at town speeds less enjoyable. As Fabiam said it's a matter of adjusting the closed loop by tricking the O2 sensors to richen up the fuel mixture or by getting a full remap. Power Commanders by the time you paid out for them and got them setup work out more expensive than a good remap. Changing the breathing of a modern bike with air filters and exhausts tends to make matters worse unless the mapping is changed too as makes the leaned out fuelling worse.  This can much more harmful to an engine than a remap and would surely void your warranty.  

I've ridden the KTM 390 when my bike was in for service and didn't find the fuelling that bad at all, nothing like the 990 SM when I first got that. They have Ride by Wire throttles which allows the ECU to smooth out the throttle response. The older cabled throttle would react to every tiny input and as you have a memory of riding two strokes it would have been a very similar feeling. 

 

Enjoy your bike refresher training and hope you find the bike that cures your itch.

[fabiamk2SE]

On 07/08/2017 at 12:26, CWARD said:

@john2017 Trying to find a modern bike that brings back memories of the old 2 strokes will be a tall order. Modern bikes are so linear in their power delivery until you start to remapping and tinkling with the breathing even then a 4 stroke will never have the madness of a smoker and none of that delicious smell of Castrol R.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a small bike unless I was much younger and the insurance costs where stopping me owning a bigger bike. I would rather have the extra torque of a bigger engine to give me a safer boost of speed for overtaking than commitment needed only a smaller bike to do the same. Unless you're wanting a sports bike then have a good look around, for sheer fun it's hard to beat a Supermoto but if you want to any kinds of distances it will tiresome as will a small sportsbike. Whatever you get, it you that's in control of the bikes power with your right wrist. Totally agree with 

 

The emissions on modern bikes is a pain with the mapping so lean in low revs that it creates the hunting, more noticeable in V twins like the KTM than parallels, 3 or 4 cylinder bikes, and makes riding around at town speeds less enjoyable. As Fabiam said it's a matter of adjusting the closed loop by tricking the O2 sensors to richen up the fuel mixture or by getting a full remap. Power Commanders by the time you paid out for them and got them setup work out more expensive than a good remap. Changing the breathing of a modern bike with air filters and exhausts tends to make matters worse unless the mapping is changed too as makes the leaned out fuelling worse.  This can much more harmful to an engine than a remap and would surely void your warranty.  

I've ridden the KTM 390 when my bike was in for service and didn't find the fuelling that bad at all, nothing like the 990 SM when I first got that. They have Ride by Wire throttles which allows the ECU to smooth out the throttle response. The older cabled throttle would react to every tiny input and as you have a memory of riding two strokes it would have been a very similar feeling. 

 

Enjoy your bike refresher training and hope you find the bike that cures your itch.

 

Not if you have it changed to open loop ;). No trickery, just clean breathing

[lol-lol]

32 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Not if you have it changed to open loop ;). No trickery, just clean breathing

 

So when I go to the full system on the R3 what happens to the exhaust sensor?

Does it default to some mean setting if is left hanging in "normal" air?

Edited 8 August, 2017 by lol-lol

[CWARD]

@fabiamk2SE The closed loop is basically to allow the engine to keep running whilst making the fuel mix as lean as safely possible mainly on tick over and steady throttle. It does this through the use of lambda sensors but most manufacturers only use narrow band sensors. As the name suggests they are only looking at a narrow margin of readings so when you accelerate the ECU switches over from closed to open loop where it richens up the mixture for more power. The switch from closed to open can create poor fuelling and response. 

Power Commanders use wide band sensors and create finer/smoother transitions from closed to open loops as well as custom maps. 

You can have a remap so the ECU doesn't lean out the mix as far is it normally would but you will still have an open and closed loop just mapped to run richer. 

Short article that covers the basics https://www.enginebasics.com/EFI Tuning/Closed Loop o2.html

 

I've got a tour of Scotland later this month on the bike and once back from that I'm going to get it remapped. It's already running very well at the moment but I know it's got more to offer. 

Edited 8 August, 2017 by CWARD

[fabiamk2SE]

ive got no lambda sensor anymore. Just a blanking plug. Its been mapped out completely. 

 

 

[fabiamk2SE]

15 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

So when I go to the full system on the R3 what happens to the exhaust sensor?

Does it default to some mean setting if is left hanging in "normal" air?

 

Youll need a flash to make the full system as effective as it can be anyway. If you dont get it flashed it might be running some really strange AF mixtures and youll get little or no power gains from it. 

 

Depends what exhaust it is, if the new one takes the sensor or not. 

 

If you just unplug it, itll register a fault code i think. 

 

Simon at stec is your man to speak to really. The guys a genius on these things   

Edited 9 August, 2017 by fabiamk2SE

[CWARD]

That will be like mine then as I did that and they just add a resistor to the loom where the lambda sensor would connect. This just gives a set reading which they will map to. 

[fabiamk2SE]

Just now, CWARD said:

That will be like mine then as I did that and they just add a resistor to the loom where the lambda sensor would connect. This just gives a set reading which they will map to. 

 

Got no resistor on mine. Just a waterproof blank in the wiring connector. Then i 'think' he just turns it off on the Woolich Racing software so it doesnt flag any codes. 

[CWARD]

Replacing the exhaust system will usually make the system run leaner so you can actually loose power. Running an engine lean also creates a lot of heat which can damage the engine, burning the valves, glowing headers etc.

[fabiamk2SE]

Yams make the standard bike run rich at high revs to make it 'safe' with aftermarket systems on thw standard map. 

 

But it wont be up to much without mapping. A mate of mine put a Black Widow system on his 900 and lost 10bhp  

[CWARD]

3 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Got no resistor on mine. Just a waterproof blank in the wiring connector. Then i 'think' he just turns it off on the Woolich Racing software so it doesnt flag any codes. 

 

You can do it that way too and then set the default value in the map. Used to do it that way with TuneECU but not possible with the ECU on the new bike. Hilltop Motorcycles that'll be taking mine to will do the map either way but prefer to keep them in as they quote

 

Quote

We make use of the O2 sensor and the airbox sensor. With our software running the engine it will not run lean and we definitely would not recommend bypassing the O2 sensors or anything else. We could post graphs showing different part throttle runs but doing that would mean we could end up with rather a lot of graphs. A bike mapped by us will be miles better than standard at any part throttle opening and will also run nicely and last longer because we put the correct amount of fuel in to produce good power and keep the exhaust valves cool etc.

 

[CWARD]

1 hour ago, fabiamk2SE said:

A mate of mine put a Black Widow system on his 900 and lost 10bhp

 

At least it sounds cool. Mine is by Wings and despite the great craftmanship, lovely noise and extra power the name still sounds like a female sanitary product 

[Guest]

On 8/5/2017 at 14:28, lol-lol said:

 

I would contend that the R6 you do have to thrash to get past traffic, unlike the R1 that breezes past.

 

R6 roll-on times have always been a lot worse despite its clear ability to do some good lap times compared to the thous.  Hyper-link makes some interesting reading i think  No R3 but the KTM 390 is a very similar level of performance.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcycle-performance-data-and-specifications-motorcyclist-magazine

 

Spending £11K on a R6, and then having to spend another £1K to make it as it should be when one could have had a much better R1 for a grand or so more.  

 

600cc class seems on the wane with riders going from 350 to 1,000 cc.  Whether it is World Super Sport 600 or Moto2 it always seems the least interesting and followed class.

 

Academic for me and most 6 footer plus as these proddy bikes do fit in my personal experience and much feedback on the interweb.  Some good improvements on the 2017 R6 but still the frame size is the same sadly.   

 

I think I am going to try and test ride the duke 390 as I saw some good reports from missenden flyer on youtube - really good motorcycle reviews!!!!

[fabiamk2SE]

22 minutes ago, john2017 said:

I think I am going to try and test ride the duke 390 as I saw some good reports from missenden flyer on youtube - really good motorcycle reviews!!!!

 

Just watched that long term review myself. 

 

Looks a nice bike and could be good fun! Surprised at the fuel economy return though tbh 

[CWARD]

Never seen the MissndenFlyer reviews before but they're really good. Plenty of detail, warts and all, not just talking about the max speed and power. 

KTMs have never been the best for mpg, my 1190 isn't the best but still does 48mpg fully loaded, two up having lots of fun down B roads which is still impressive given how I ride it. I don't think I ever bought a motorbike and even considered the MPG but then they've all been fun purchases and my arse will always give up before the tank does 

 

John, enjoy your test ride and thanks for putting me onto those reviews which I've now subscribed to.