Power steering readings. Do you seeanything strange?

[dm222]

I have put a link to my logs in my last post now. This evening's journey started with a warm engine because I popped out on an errand at about 3pm.  I think that's why the terminal 30 voltage isn't even higher.  Straight after the earth wire was replaced (new 40mm²  wire) I was getting nearly the same 14.5V at alternator output post (and local earth) and across the battery terminals, with everything cold.

 

My earth cable is 40mm2 too by the way.

 

So you don't have voltage drop in the positive wire between the alternator and the battery? From what I remenber I have a nearly 0,5V drop with headlights and AC.

I tought it was normal in the positive wire.

Edited 12 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

I think it was about 0.1-0.15V in the positive alternator wire, with those loads on.  Can do some more measurements tomorrow. That wire is thinner,16mm² ? so there will be some loss, but the earth wire definitely had a problem. I've bought an identical new genuine one off ebay so I'm hoping to do some side-by-side measurements on the bench when that arrives. 

 

The end that goes to the chassis leg has a brass/bronze crimp rather than a tinned copper one like the other end, and it isn't crimped as nicely. Need to get a photo, hang on.

 

Starter end on the left, chassis end on right:

 

Edited 12 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

I think it was about 0.1-0.15V in the positive alternator wire, with those loads on.  Can do some more measurements tomorrow. That wire is thinner,16mm² ? so there will be some loss, but the earth wire definitely had a problem. I've bought an identical new genuine one off ebay so I'm hoping to do some side-by-side measurements on the bench when that arrives. 

 

The end that goes to the chassis leg has a brass/bronze crimp rather than a tinned copper one like the other end, and it isn't crimped as nicely. Need to get a photo, hang on.

 

Yes mine is 16mm2 too

The earth wire is ticker because of the starter.

Mine is like that too...

 

Here is pic of the old cable.

 

Edited 12 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

Hmm, looking at your picture, it seems like I was wrong about which end was where? It looks like your 'right-angle' tinned-copper crimp end is at the chassis. 

 

Edit: yep, confirmed on a picture of same end on the Fabia.  Wonder why the starter end has a different crimp material, temperature of the area?

Edited 12 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

Hmm, looking at your picture, it seems like I was wrong about which end was where? It looks like your 'right-angle' tinned-copper crimp end is at the chassis. 

 

Edit: yep, confirmed on a picture of same end on the Fabia.  Wonder why the starter end has a different crimp material, temperature of the area?

 

The one in the left is chassis. Copper end is at the engine/starter. 

You must put the wire above the starter with an angle so it's cable doesn't touch the starter. The side showed at the picture is the one that makes contact with the starter/engine.

 

 

 

Edited 12 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

Ah, OK, I think I see now. The little 'wings' of the right one face the engine, and fit round two corners of the 18mm 'nut' of the starter stud to stop the crimp rotating as you do up the 13mm nut, I guess. 

I was using so much of my little brain trying to work out which tool could get access to undo that 13mm nut, and not drop it, I didn't notice what I was undoing.

Doing it up again seemed even worse. Sooo many things in the way!

Edited 12 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

Yes that's it, except the rotating thing, I think that doesn't stop it from rotating because it is larger than the bolt, at least in my starter.

[dm222]

Wino, Do you know if your alternator is the 70A version or the 90A version? And can you please measure the voltage drop within positive cable with AC maximum and headlights?

 

Just checked mine, it's the 90A version and the voltage drop was 0,4V

Edited 13 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

It's 90A. I'll do that measurement for you in a minute.

 

Edit:

Cabin fan on 4 (max) and headlights on dipped beam.  Voltage between alternator positive terminal and battery positive post = 0.15V

Voltage between alternator case and battery negative = 0.02V

Voltage at alternator  14.44V

I did some other logs this morning, but can't upload them just now.

Edited 13 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

It's 90A. I'll do that measurement for you in a minute.

 

Edit:

Cabin fan on 4 (max) and headlights on dipped beam.  Voltage between alternator positive terminal and battery positive post = 0.15V

Voltage between alternator case and battery negative = 0.02V

Voltage at alternator  14.44V

I did some other logs this morning, but can't upload them just now.

 

Thanks, I will replace the cable and check if it improves.

[dm222]

Starting to think the battery only charges when idle.

 

I leaved the car yesterday idle for 20 min the steering was good today.

Did the same thing saturday and the steering was good monday (didn't use the car sunday), and it got harder as days passed.

 

 

Tomorow I will replace the cable for alternator, the conector at the pump, check ground for power steering but I guess if it was this I would have VCDS errors.

 

I don't know if VCDS voltages are at the pump or somewhere else but by this thread I guess they are at the pump and if so my voltages at the pump are the same as the battery so that discards ground problems

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/259823-no-power-steering-pas/ 

 

Also I believe the fan ground wire which shares ground with PAS in my car maybe is damaged because it was adhesive tape on it but only removing the bumper can I check properly.

Edited 15 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect every VCDS 'terminal 30' voltage, whichever module is being looked at, is actually measured in the Onboard power supply control unit, J519 (VCDS Module 09).  There are two dedicated wires that go from the battery to two pins of this unit, in order to get a true battery voltage reading that isn't affected by voltage drops down any current-carrying wires.  I suspect that when other modules report the 'terminal 30' voltage, they are just repeating what they have been told via CAN communication with J519.

 

I may be wrong, and it would be more useful diagnostically if I am, but it would also be more expensive to make each control module with its own voltage measurement circuit.  In Fabia and Polo, probably also your car, there's one thin red/yellow wire that goes from a 5 Amp blade fuse - number 10 on my Polo - (under a cover) in the battery-top fusebox, to J519 (t18a pin 5 I think), and nowhere else. If you pull that fuse out, I think J519 loses its knowledge of terminal 30 voltage.  I think that any other module looked at via VCDS will also say it doesn't know what T30 voltage is while this fuse is missing.  I don't have laptop/VCDS with me to check this, but can do later if no-one beats me to it.

 

This is the fuse/wire on my Polo:

 

Edited 15 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

Thank you Wino but that may damage your car, doesn't worth the risk.

 

Tomorow I will know anyway I will check at the terminals and see what vcds says.

 

I've read calcium batteries need 14,4 yo 14,8 to charge, mine never gets there so while driving probably I'm spending more energy than charging that's why it gets harder.

[Breezy_Pete]

Well, it's better to do what you suggest and measure the reality, at the PAS module, but it's sometimes hard to 'backprobe' connectors while they are connected/operating.

I know it doesn't cause a problem to pull that fuse, 'cos I already tried it.  I just can't remember which module I was looking at when I did it, maybe PAS, maybe engine, but I'm pretty sure that that wire does nothing else but tell J519 what the battery voltage is (with it's partner, the thin one on the battery negative clamp). Whichever module I was looking at, the T30 voltage measuring block field just went to zero. Back up to 14.something when the fuse was replaced.

 

I agree that your battery is not getting charged as it should be, those 13.x voltages in your last log all looked too low to me. 13.8 is really a bare minimum to get any charge going into a lead acid car battery.

[dm222]

Well, it's better to do what you suggest and measure the reality, at the PAS module, but it's sometimes hard to 'backprobe' connectors while they are connected/operating.

I know it doesn't cause a problem to pull that fuse, 'cos I already tried it.  I just can't remember which module I was looking at when I did it, maybe PAS, maybe engine, but I'm pretty sure that that wire does nothing else but tell J519 what the battery voltage is (with it's partner, the thin one on the battery negative clamp). Whichever module I was looking at, the T30 voltage measuring block field just went to zero. Back up to 14.something when the fuse was replaced.

 

I agree that your battery is not getting charged as it should be, those 13.x voltages in your last log all looked too low to me. 13.8 is really a bare minimum to get any charge going into a lead acid car battery.

 

 

I have to cut the cables to replace the connector so it's easy to cut a little part isolation before and check. Just have to be careful not to do a short.

Mine is a VARTA blue 60AH D24.

I think this battery is calcium

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_calcium_battery

 

Silver calcium batteries generally require more charging voltage (14.4 to 14.8 V) and may not be functional in older vehicles because their power generating systems (alternators) give lower voltages than those of modern vehicles. This also may occur with static chargers, some of which fail to charge these batteries.

 

Edited 15 January, 2016 by dm222

[dm222]

This is more informative.

 

http://www.necon.co.za/agcabatt.php?w=1364&h=768#openModal

 

Don't know if this is true though, I find strange no one else has problems

Edited 15 January, 2016 by dm222

[Breezy_Pete]

I just had another look, and it seems like what I said (in post #237) about terminal 30 info being measured centrally and that info being shared around to all modules is not right at all.

I looked at module 9 (J519, the onboard supply control unit) and that really does lose its terminal 30 voltage info when you pull that fuse.

Engine ECU doesn't (though my VCDS lite just calls that 'supply voltage';not clear if this is T30, T15 or something else). PAS module doesn't lose its T30 voltage reading.

 

That's quite good news really, 'cos it means these modules really are measuring their local supply voltages, which is more useful, because they can be compared to battery voltage actually measured with a meter across battery terminals, or T30 as indicated by J519, and potentially show up cable and connection problems.

 

Sorry for the bad info, glad to be wrong about this though.

Edited 15 January, 2016 by Wino

[dm222]

What a pig job I have to do tomorow, today after work I was messed around the loom and didn't take much to found one cable with the stuff below, I believe it is from the radiator fan or the left headlight,  who knows what is in other parts...

The alternator wiring support was touching the engine, it was bent against the engine so it was really hot, so the cable, fixed that.

 

Should I check only the steering and alternator or do I need to check all cables?

 

 

 

 

And the voltage with the voltimeter when I'm not touching the steering is the same as vcds but when I touch the steering it never falls below 13v and at the steering it gets as low as 12.3

 

Ah, I almost forgot, at the engine with vcds voltage is always 0,4V below the battery, have no idea why!!! Because the engine cables are not in the front of the car.

 

So many things I fixed in this thread and so many things yet to fix.

Edited 15 January, 2016 by dm222

[dm222]

Replaced cable between alternator and battery, now:

 - Voltage drop with everyhing off, before 0,17V, now 0,03V

 - Voltage drop with everything on, before 0,4V, now 0,17V

 

Connector changed, wires checked, applied silicone in the new connector to prevent water ingress.

 

But... steering is the same. Considering changing to OEM battery wich is a lead acid battery, now I have a silver calcium (VARTA 60AH blue D24). Will wait a little more to see if it charges, as apparently I have more voltage now.

Edited 16 January, 2016 by dm222

[dm222]

Bought a battery charger, let's see what happens after charging the battery 

[dm222]

Also the bracket is bent, it's bent in a way that couldn't manage to make it right. It has 1 finger diference between the sides

 

 

Edited 17 January, 2016 by dm222

[felicia16v]

What oil are you using? The vw oil is green not red (atf ? )

[dm222]

What oil are you using? The vw oil is green not red (atf ? )

 

green, that pump is not mine.

[Breezy_Pete]

Improving the electrics can only help things, so well done on your progress there.

 

It seems unlikely to me that a small 'mis-orientation' due to your bracket being bent is causing problems.

[dm222]

Sorry for being anoying, this is my last post this week, at least untill I have news  :sun:

 

Will replace my front tires next week because I need to replace them, I will mention to them this problem, maybe they will find something.

I did notice the tires have less wear in the center. On the sides already or almost reached the 1.6mm mark. That's because I had low pressure at some point probably but I increased it months ago, so that's not the problem.

 

The pump apparently draws the fluid one side, it's not that small but I agree it's unlikely.

 

I regret I didn't take better pics, I lined the point above above with the line below.