Not seen this subject covered on any of the VAG forums yet, but it has become apparent that there are numerous cars on our roads which fit this description.

Now I do not want anyone to take this the wrong way but this is probably directed mainly at the Fabia VRS owners, yes I own an Octy VRS, but I had a Fabia VRS for a day recently as a courtesy car, I specifically requested it and booked my car in for warranty work when the Fabia vrs was available. My impressions of it were that it was a pretty amazing piece of kit, particularly where the engine was concerned, the last Diesel I had was a Volvo 440 TDI, and it was a piece of crap, brand new but bad just the same ( it was a company car and yes ..it was forced on me)

I asked for the fabia to find out why it seems to have gained such a keen following.

The point of all this is that the Fabia as a 130bhp package is fast but is on the limit as it is as far as brakes supension, tyres are concerned and that the remaps available for a few hundred quid seem to be snapped up as a first modification then the owners realise the limitations of the important bits.

Maybe the onus should be on the insurance companies insisting that the rest of the car is capable of handling the extra power BEFORE they will insure a remap.

At present you can drive a bog standard Fabia vrs into any number of tuning companies and drive out with anything upto a 50% power increase.

...open to debate...........

The Octy vRS is designed to travel at 146MPH.

The brakes and suspension are therefore designed to stop the car from that speed, and cope with any undulations from the Great British roads that we have to endure.

I don't really have an issue with how fast you get to 146MPH, be it with assisted electronic remapifications, as long as you don't exceed 146MPH, the equipment you've got should suffice.

Please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.....

Yup, wrong tree, what I am getting at is the fact that you can squeeze nearly 200bhp out of the Fabia vrs and the rest of the package is barely upto the 130bhp of the std car according to the guys who have had them remapped, just reminds me of the time when 17 spotty yoofs were driving rusty old mkII 1.3 escorts with 2 litre twin cams dropped in.

The Octy vRS is designed to travel at 146MPH.

The brakes and suspension are therefore designed to stop the car from that speed' date=' and cope with any undulations from the Great British roads that we have to endure.

I don't really have an issue with how fast you get to 146MPH, be it with assisted electronic remapifications, as long as you don't exceed 146MPH, the equipment you've got should suffice. [/quote']

I think transmissions are often built to a torque limit but that is usually far in excess of what the car is built with.

Brakes should be developed to cope with the maximum speed of a car but there are a few threads on here where people have said mod the breaks before getting a remap. It's this kind of advice from fellow owners that should guide people but no one has to take it.

Personally I prefer to leave my car standard but I can understand the desire to personalise your car. Some people go for stickers, some for styling tweaks, some for mechanics mods. It's really a case of each to their own.

When I renewed my insurance in April I got half a lecture on telling them before doing anything to the car. Insurance companies will up the premium of any non-standard car but if they start to set an order for mods they could be seen to be condoning such mods which, in some cases, they don't want to see. It's a bit of a tightrope.

One question I would ask is how can you be sure a car can handle the extra power unless the mod has been properly tested and approved by either the vehicle manufacturer or the insurance industry? I can see premiums for modded cars rocketing further due to the costs of such tests.

As we've got some of the modding companies on this forum it might be interesting to know what their testing processes are like.

The Fabia vRS top speed is 128mph ~

So am i wrong in thinking that the breaks are designed to stop the car at that speed. So for those who have vRS touching 200bhp, there isn't a need for a break upgrade as unless they are travelling over 130mph then the standard breaks are fine. Its just the acceleration which was increased.

A break upgrade would be needed if the car weighed more, not for how fast it accelerates.

Am i wrong? Just that would make sense to me.

I agree, Jimb0.

Brakes are designed to convert momentum into heat. Momentum is weight x speed. Altering the power of a car just changes the time taken to reach a given speed, although it may make it possible for a car to reach a higher top speed if previously it was unable to max out in top because of wind resistance. So although it may take you longer, you can still generate the same energy in the standard car.

I think what people infer is that because they have more power, they will drive faster, and brake later, heating up the brakes to the point where they begin to fade and lose effectiveness. They could still do this in the standard car, but perhaps they are more likely to after a remap.

having had a quick chat with bengie, he's convinced me that it'll be the repeated braking from greater speeds that you're able to reach between corners once remapped that'll cause the brakes to fade quicker than in a standard car.

That's why mine has Octy/TT Brakes and a grand's worth of suspension (and pretty much the best all round tyres available right now imho).

Wouldn't have it any other way.

I,too, thought the brakes, suspension and tyres were the weakest point of my fabia.

I have a Superchip fitted and the bigger brakes . I didn't think the standard brakes were all that bad but I now have the confidence that these brakes will stop you with no fade, but I don't leave it to the last minute. I love my wife and kids to much. The cars top end speed is no differant but the extra power is used mainly for overtaking purposses

I have a Superchip fitted and the bigger brakes . I didn't think the standard brakes were all that bad but I now have the confidence that these brakes will stop you with no fade, but I don't leave it to the last minute. I love my wife and kids to much. The cars top end speed is no differant but the extra power is used mainly for overtaking purposses

Furby vRS, 312MM Zimmerman Disks, TT Calipers, and Eibach bouncy bits and a remap.

I had my Remap first and never really found any issues with the rest of the chassis, after all it's not like your pushing it to vmax all the time. I have done the rest just as personal preference and the brakes have really been done as much for aesthetic's as anything else but there is potentially more tweaking to come, for which the brake upgrade will be ...... required.

Commonsense should prevail. If you want to eliminate problems remove the driver from the car, that way its safe. As soon as something as iratianal as a humen gets behind the wheel its out of the designers hands. We should all know our limits & our cars limits & TRY to drive within them.

A std car can as we all know be totally un safe with a poor driver, a driver on drink or drugs, bald tyres, defective std brakes etc etc .

As far as what the cars brakes are designed for is an average based on the designers experience, its got to stop the car in the dry, in trhe wet, with one 7 stone driver, with 4 or 5 15 stone people in etc etc. theyve got to be effective but not wear out too quickly. the list is endless.

Its very un fair to say that re mapped cars are any more dangerous than std cars, people who get there cars re mapped are generally more aware of their car yet are the kind of people who will always drive quicker so who knows.

Personally I spent about

I wouldn't agree that the Fabia was dangerous after a remap, although I see where you are coming from. A 2 litre twin cam in an otherwise standard 1300 escort is hardly a fair comparison imo. But that aside, the Fabia can handle the extra power given by a remap. It's just a better car all together when you add springs, brakes etc. I drive purely for pleasure, not necessity, and even with prolonged very hard road use, never had brake fade or a moment where I feared the brakes would not stop the car as quickly as I would like them too. I upgraded because it is a relatively inexpensive improvement over the originals. The springs, had I known the overall effect on the handling, I would have done on the day of delivery. They make the car what it should have been out of the box. Brakes arent just designed to stop x wieght from x speed once, they are designed to stop a fully laden car from whatever speed, as safely and as quickly as possible, and tested to destruction. Heat kills brakes, ie extended hard use, and the first thing to give brake fade is hot brake fluid, and the rubber hoses expanding under braking with them being hot too. The 312 brakes I, and many others have, are no better in that respect, as the caliper still only has a single piston, and the size difference is not so dramatic, but as A.G Morely says, they give a better feel and inspire more confidence in the ability of the brakes - full stop.

Another point I would like to make, is that the driver plays a big part in how a car would drive with a remap. Clearly adjusments have to be made in cornering when in a remapped Fabia on standard suspension. That doesnt mean it's dangerous, just a different style needed.

I had my map done before any other mods were done, just to see what it was like, and imo, it just highlighted that the car's main weakness was it's suspension being too soft, meaning everylast smile couldnt be wrung out of the extra power.

And also, lets get things into perspective, no one is going to repeatedly drive at max speed (150 in some cases ) and make a full stop, time after time, and although the power increase is quite good from a remap, the 0-60 time is only a second(ish) quicker, and map dependant, the top end is only 10 - 15 mph more. Mid range is where all the power is most useful, ie corner to corner.

don't think it's really about the max speed being increased, more the fact that when you go for a blat around your favourite twisty road, due to the increased mid range grunt, a remapped car will be reaching a higher speed before the next corner compared to a standard car. repeated braking from a higher speed is surely going to generate more heat and cause the standard brakes to fade sooner?

The message is simple:

Don't drive beyond your own, or your car's, limits.

The message is simple:

Don't drive beyond your own' date=' or your car's, limits. [/quote']

Wish I had said that Instead, my fingers are bleeding now.

T...and pretty much the best all round tyres available right now imho.

What would you recommend?

don't think it's really about the max speed being increased, more the fact that when you go for a blat around your favourite twisty road, due to the increased mid range grunt, a remapped car will be reaching a higher speed before the next corner compared to a standard car. repeated[/i'] braking from a higher speed is surely going to generate more heat and cause the standard brakes to fade sooner?

Somebody gets it

But not everyone remaps their cars to go faster down their favorite roads.. Some people may only do it to make the car safer in situations like overtaking in which case you dont need better brakes or suspension.

At the end of the day its how the driver uses the car and the increase in power.

don't think it's really about the max speed being increased, more the fact that when you go for a blat around your favourite twisty road, due to the increased mid range grunt, a remapped car will be reaching a higher speed before the next corner compared to a standard car. repeated[/i'] braking from a higher speed is surely going to generate more heat and cause the standard brakes to fade sooner?

This is the last time.

I've done 3 trackdays now, the first was with standard brakes under 15" alloys my brakes were fine but the guys I was running with in Seats with 312 brakes and fast road pads kept having to stop due to fade

The second was with 312 brakes and 16" alloys fast road pads, this time I had loads of brake fade and smoke. But also more laps.

The third was standard brakes and 16" alloys, mild fade no smoke.

I think the best mod is a racing brake fluid and braided hoses at the front with the standard set up. Under standard alloys. If you go to 17" alloys that may allow the discs (312 ) to cool better.

May try that next but I think the FR pads have too much metal in them and thats what generates the additional heat.

Will report back after my next trackday.

Somebody gets it

after a wee chat pandy saw where i was coming from and posted before i could. asaid its not the increased topnd that is the problem as not very many pple actually reach the cars maximum speed anyway but the fact that with the extra oomph the car can reach an extra say 20mph between corners so with this over a few miles and you have worked the brakes a lot harder.

This is the last time.

YAY!!! no more whining

I Totally Agree ,i Have 240bhp , Makes Overtaking So Much Easier And Safer, It Is Only As Fast As Your Right Boot Causes It To Be ,

Let Common Sense Prevail .

oh and for comparison reasons i went from the standard 280mm single pot(i think) brakes under the standard 16" wheels to brembo 323mm 4 pot brakes under 17" wheels. the fluid got changed at the same time for standard dot 4 fluid(btw there is less room around the disc with the brembo/17" setup compared to the standard setup).

i would get the standard setup fading under spirted driving on a regular basis, since having the brembo's fitted i haven't had a single bit of brake fade and i have been on the trax track time and also did a 135mph full power stop on friday

brembo 323mm 4 pot brakes under 17" wheels. the fluid got changed at the same time for standard dot 4 fluid(btw there is less room around the disc with the brembo/17" setup compared to the standard setup).

I know.

Its all about how you like to drive your car...

my car spends 99% of its life on the motorway, where it doesnt need the suspension or the brakes, but the extra power sure is handy!..

BUT.. because i also like driving.. and track days.. in that context ANY road car is designed to have compromises... which is why people mod their cars (i mean performance/braking/handling mods - not chavvy spoilers etc)

so in modifying the car, your making it more suitable for your individual type of driving.. its not all about going as fast as possible.