Plastics with possible toxic properties in food and drink storage

[Clunkclick]

Had to buy myself a new kettle recently as the old one decided to do a one way bungy  onto the floor and was unrepairable. It was 13 years old so didn't owe me anything.

 

As a replacement, I selected a 1 litre capacity Igenix brand (Chinese brand ? - but whatever the brand, they all seem to be made in China)  from the SAC . This was  composed mainly of  stainless steel,  but had some plastic parts, notably a filter and filter holder on the inside of the spout, a plastic liner to the inside of the sprung lid and the handle assembly. Presume the plastic is some sort of polycarbonate.

 

On unboxing and opening, the inside of the kettle had a distinct plasticky/cat pee smell, which after several rinses followed by a number of test boilings has substantially reduced, if not gone.

 

Haven't had that sort of thing before with the previous kettles (Tefal, swan).

 

The smell was definitely coming from the plastic components and seemed to get worse when heat was applied to the water.

 

So, before using it for a cuppa, and being a little concerned about said anomalous smell, I thought I would "Test-the-Water" on this forum to see if anybody else had come across this phenomena and whether there was anyone with  food industry expertise on here that would care to comment.

 

 

Nick

Edited 28 March, 2016 by Clunkclick

[mac11irl]

Ive noticed the last couple of yrs anything new with plastic in it has a smell which to me is the material still curing...

i got office chairs delivered at work that had to be replaced the smell was so awful.

fiam floor mats for the little guys bedroom - 3days airing the shed before i lay them

stuff is being made and packed too fast. So they materials arent getting any post process breathing time

[@Lee]

Had to buy myself a new kettle recently as the old one decided to do a one way bungy  onto the floor and was unrepairable. It was 13 years old so didn't owe me anything.

I'll be surprised if this doesn't turn into a five-page thread about how unserviceable modern appliances are a' la Lavamat washing machines

[Aspman]

Might even be the opposite. They are taking out some of the previously used chemicals. So the smellier ones might even be safer.

 

Cat pee smell might be ammonia.

[Tilt]

Do you have cats??????  .

[gadgetman]

All items will be BPA free and each plastic component will be stamped accordingly

[kit]

Most kettles stink when new, put a few scoops of baking soda into the kettle of water and boil and the smell should be gone

[Clunkclick]

I'll be surprised if this doesn't turn into a five-page thread about how unserviceable modern appliances are a' la Lavamat washing machines

It has been a long drawn out story, mainly because the original problem had several concurrent causes.

 

You'll undoubtedly be glad to learn that, as from last night, all the Lavamat  specific issues are now history.

 

Even though the available  evidence was not conclusive, I took the leap and replaced the facia control board PCB with a new one @ £82 and, all is now OK.

All the buttons on the fascia control panel now work and,  work as they should do. And, unlike previously, the diagnostic mode can be invoked at the first key press.  Machine tested OK on rinse programs ! So, Result !

 

However, whilst the flow and pressure issues have been resolved on the Water Supply front, the issue of  further leaks in the road and water quality is still in the question - I got an E-mail today from Affinity and am expecting another by the end of the week, which should, hopefully, tie it up. My reading of todays' e-mail is that there is a tacit admission that there may be a further leak in the road based on slightly elevated Chlorine levels detected in a sample Affinity took from the trench dug in front of my place. And it would appear that the data loggers they had installed for 4 days didn't capture it !

 

Stand-by your beds, next job, is replacing and possible resiting of expansion vessel, replacement of air trap and cylinder thermostat for the sealed and pressurised heating system.

 

Then after that, replacing the programmer.

 

All interesting stuff.

 

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Most kettles stink when new, put a few scoops of baking soda into the kettle of water and boil and the smell should be gone

Smell didn't go away after several rinses and boil-ups, so I treated the surfaces with dilute lemon juice a couple of times and then boiled-up multipletimes and rinsed. And now, it seems to be diminished. So much so that I used the kettle once.

 

I used lemon juice, just in case it was a phenol related issue, as I understand from wiki  that alkali's such as bicarbonate of soda etc will  promote (catalyse) the release of certain chemicals in plastics e.g. Bisphenols.

 

I know the issue is somewhat long-in-the-tooth as regards the contemporary media output, but my concern was the possible presence of Bisphenols and the like implications for my current health issues. Bisphenols are one of the groups of chemicals known to mimick oestrogen.

 

My understanding is that apparently now, its not so much the  "A" variants that were originally identified by the FDA back-in-the-day, as apparently recent simian studies have indicated that Bis "A" whilst absorbed isn't metabolised by humans in the same way that the rats in the original studies did.  . Whilst the "A"s were supposedly  removed from consumer products at the time onward from the US Food and Drug Administration report (Circa 2007 ?),  and there's still a ban on baby's bottles containing "A" in the US,  the other variants haven't yet been subject to regulatory attention as the studies are only just being done.. But its the other variants  that are causing concern.

 

I only use the kettle a couple of times a week , when I use the teapot. Rest of the time I'm making drinks in a ceramic cup. So the exposure would be minimal.

 

But after the baby-milk scandal and other issues effecting the integrity of products from China, and the fact that nowadays import licensing and Trading Standards are services in name only in the UK, can you be sure that plastics are free from Bisphenols  or other toxicities ?

 

Nick

Edited 30 March, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

All items will be BPA free and each plastic component will be stamped accordingly

Lots of marks on the plastic base of the kettle, but definitely not anything like this :-

 

https://trademarks.justia.com/775/22/bpa-free-bisphenol-a-free-phthalate-free-77522298.html

 

I take it from this ancient search result posting that even the original mark was "Short-lived".

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Do you have cats??????  .

Nein !

 

And it ain't me - might be if it was the other end.

 

Nick

['daiking']

Should have bought British

[Clunkclick]

Should have bought British

As the actress is alleged to have said to the bishop, "Find me one, sweetheart".

 

Even the 'le faithfull" brands are made in China, and most employ much more plastic than the one I've got.

 

To go all metal (All glass would be a no-no in this household), you've got to go for a gas kettle and that means swopping a 3 minute boil for 12 minutes.

 

 

Postcript

 

Mr Javid and Mr Corbyn, please note. Ok, only reason 321 for retaining the services of Port Talbot - but just imagine the health bombshell that could be waiting in the wings if this and similar items are not Bis A, F & S free ?

 

E-Mail enquiry winging its way to Igenix.

 

Nick

Edited 30 March, 2016 by Clunkclick

[gadgetman]

Lots of marks on the plastic base of the kettle, but definitely not anything like this :-

https://trademarks.justia.com/775/22/bpa-free-bisphenol-a-free-phthalate-free-77522298.html

I take it from this ancient search result posting that even the original mark was "Short-lived".

Nick

Don't have nightmares

http://www.breastcancer.org/risk/factors/plastic

[Auric Goldfinger]

Should have bought British

 

He did, but made in China

[Sparkly]

The smell comes from 'outgassing' - the release of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's)

 

Heat or humidity will speed up the release of VOC's - and we are talking about a kettle.

 

Although the smell/outgassing will give hints to the formulation of the plastic it does not outright point to toxicity.  In most plastic products low VOC emissions are seen as desirable, one of the weird exceptions being our love of the new car smell, which is also just VOC's escaping from the materials of the car's interior.

 

In Gadgetman's link above we are told to keep PVC away from food, yet if you go into hospital for a transfusion all blood bags are made from PVC as they are proven to be inert and actually prolong the life of the stored blood.  It just comes down to the formulation of the plastic.

 

I work in an industry where manufacture of PVC products is a big part of the business, currently there is a trend of worry around plasticisers (the chemicals that make plastics flexy) containing Pthalates because when fed orally to rats they had slightly increased rates of cancer so now products that go on floors wall and ceilings can no longer contain these even though we don't eat these products we breathe in a few mcg of gas coming off them.  So what did the manufacturers do, move to a product with a slightly different chemical make up pterapthalates in order to comply with the trend.  These are plasticisers made from pthalates.  

 

In short you haven't got much chance of unravelling why your kettle smells.

 

What I can say is that most dangerous plasticisers and toxic chemicals found in Chinese manufactured products make their way into a product because in China there is a high use of recycled PVC of unknown origin in manufacturing because it is hugely cheap.  I highly doubt that these products would be imported by a British company in kitchen appliances for the simple fact many of these chemicals are on banned substance lists and/or would need to carry a toxic skull and cross bones emblem on the packaging which may affect consumer appetite.

[Clunkclick]

The smell comes from 'outgassing' - the release of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's)

 

Heat or humidity will speed up the release of VOC's - and we are talking about a kettle.

 

Although the smell/outgassing will give hints to the formulation of the plastic it does not outright point to toxicity.  In most plastic products low VOC emissions are seen as desirable, one of the weird exceptions being our love of the new car smell, which is also just VOC's escaping from the materials of the car's interior.

 

In Gadgetman's link above we are told to keep PVC away from food, yet if you go into hospital for a transfusion all blood bags are made from PVC as they are proven to be inert and actually prolong the life of the stored blood.  It just comes down to the formulation of the plastic.

 

I work in an industry where manufacture of PVC products is a big part of the business, currently there is a trend of worry around plasticisers (the chemicals that make plastics flexy) containing Pthalates because when fed orally to rats they had slightly increased rates of cancer so now products that go on floors wall and ceilings can no longer contain these even though we don't eat these products we breathe in a few mcg of gas coming off them.  So what did the manufacturers do, move to a product with a slightly different chemical make up pterapthalates in order to comply with the trend.  These are plasticisers made from pthalates.  

 

In short you haven't got much chance of unravelling why your kettle smells.

 

What I can say is that most dangerous plasticisers and toxic chemicals found in Chinese manufactured products make their way into a product because in China there is a high use of recycled PVC of unknown origin in manufacturing because it is hugely cheap.  I highly doubt that these products would be imported by a British company in kitchen appliances for the simple fact many of these chemicals are on banned substance lists and/or would need to carry a toxic skull and cross bones emblem on the packaging which may affect consumer appetite.

Phhhargggh !

 

No reply to my E-mail so far.

 

This is getting good now. I'm currently still boiling the drinking water (On the gas) 'cause 'mI waiting on the final advice from the water company that's its OK to drink after all the pipe excavations and renewals  and even if they give the OK, I can't trust the kittening electric kettle to boil it without posioning me !

 

If I don't hear anything,  that things going back to Amazon with a full explanation, copied to environmental health and trading standards.

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

I have just checked the base and the bottom of the kettle for warning symbols and certification marks. In addition to a clearly visible adhesive strip, which bears the RoHs and CE marks, tucked away in the inset for the power connector in the middle of the kettle's base plate, there are a number of symbols formed in the plastic (Unfortunately, its to difficult to get a decent photo):-

 

The letters  "UL" with the "L" reversed and running into the "U" ?

 

a number "12" inside a circle ?

 

BeaB - know what that means - but there's no registration number.

 

Strix - I think I know what that means.

 

The letters "SA" enclosed in a "C" ?

 

A triangle with arrows on each side and the letters "PA" - the recycling symbol for Polyamide, nylon ?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_codes

 

And the word patented (But no patent number).

 

 

Anyone know what the unknown marks are ?

 

 

++++ And no Chinese State quality mark - "CCC"  - ++++

 

 

Postscript

 

http://www.modip.ac.uk/resources/curators_guide/A-Z_plastics

 

 

Nick

Edited 3 April, 2016 by Clunkclick

[gadgetman]

UL is an electrical standard/accreditation

[alltorque]

Phhhargggh !

 

No reply to my E-mail so far.

 

This is getting good now. I'm currently still boiling the drinking water (On the gas) 'cause 'mI waiting on the final advice from the water company that's its OK to drink after all the pipe excavations and renewals  and even if they give the OK, I can't trust the kittening electric kettle to boil it without posioning me !

 

If I don't hear anything,  that things going back to Amazon with a full explanation, copied to environmental health and trading standards.

 

Nick

If the kettle is going to kill you...by means of the plastics...it will take years and you'll put it down to old age, or somesuch. Do you check the kettles everywhere you drink tea or coffee? It might, already, be too late.

[Clunkclick]

If the kettle is going to kill you...by means of the plastics...it will take years and you'll put it down to old age, or somesuch. Do you check the kettles everywhere you drink tea or coffee? It might, already, be too late.

Undoubtedly, a very cool and highly sophisticated attitude which would convince most 16 year old blonde clubbers as to one's dare devil recklessness and no doubt give Chinese producers, Marketeers, UK buyers and importers a nice warm feeling,.

 

You'll be the first one to squeal when you notice they're shrinking !

 

As a pensioner, I don't do much in the way of eating or drinking out and most of the home prepared food is made from fresh ingedients, so my exposure to the usual range of additives and pollutants in prepared drinks and fopodstuffs  is limited. I would aim to keep it that way.

 

However, the OFFFFF !  being emitted by the plastic on this product was exceptional - even using my  recently compromised olefactory organ.

 

Are we saying here that questions shouldn't be asked in the presence of exceptional events, such as a potential hazards ? Given the widely known far-eastern track record  on product quality, product faking and material substitution ?

 

What's is this ? Some sort of slothful,  perpetual, lets be kind to marketeers  producers, importers and buyers for distributing sub-standard goods fan-fest ?

 

As far as I aware, the members of these group are primarily motivated  by money, not public health issues and, as effective pro-active  intervention action by HMG is virtually non-existent and can't be relied on when it is available (That is, until its brought to their attention in the public media and can't wriggle out of it), then its down to members of the public to be vigilant. 

 

Even the land of the free and allegedly free-enterprise have and continue to  ban the use of  the plasticiser Bisphenol A  in baby's bottles - so logic dictates that they wouldn't do that unless it was known to have a detrimental effect within the span of a normal life.

 

Ditto,  the ban on Glycophosphate, only belatedly taken up by the EU this week - but I suppose you'll maintain it will  be still  worth sprinkling RoundUp on your cornflakes, even if its only to impress the flakettes down the club.

 

 

Nick

Edited 17 April, 2016 by Clunkclick

[alltorque]

Undoubtedly, a very cool and highly sophisticated attitude which would convince most 16 year old blonde clubbers as to one's dare devil recklessness and no doubt give Chinese producers, Marketeers, UK buyers and importers a nice warm feeling,.

 

You'll be the first one to squeal when you notice they're shrinking !

 

As a pensioner, I don't do much in the way of eating or drinking out and most of the home prepared food is made from fresh ingedients, so my exposure to the usual range of additives and pollutants in prepared drinks and fopodstuffs  is limited. I would aim to keep it that way.

 

However, the OFFFFF !  being emitted by the plastic on this product was exceptional - even using my  recently compromised olefactory organ.

 

Are we saying here that questions shouldn't be asked in the presence of exceptional events, such as a potential hazards ? Given the widely known far-eastern track record  on product quality, product faking and material substitution ?

 

What's is this ? Some sort of slothful,  perpetual, lets be kind to marketeers  producers, importers and buyers for distributing sub-standard goods fan-fest ?

 

As far as I aware, the members of these group are primarily motivated  by money, not public health issues and, as effective pro-active  intervention action by HMG is virtually non-existent and can't be relied on when it is available (That is, until its brought to their attention in the public media and can't wriggle out of it), then its down to members of the public to be vigilant. 

 

Even the land of the free and allegedly free-enterprise have and continue to  ban the use of  the plasticiser Bisphenol A  in baby's bottles - so logic dictates that they wouldn't do that unless it was known to have a detrimental effect within the span of a normal life.

 

Ditto,  the ban on Glycophosphate, only belatedly taken up by the EU this week - but I suppose you'll maintain it will  be still  worth sprinkling RoundUp on your cornflakes, even if its only to impress the flakettes down the club.

 

 

Nick

Having obviously, and unintentionally, upset you I can only apologise. I do, however, think your response was diproportionate to the comments.

[Clunkclick]

I just think of my comments as  mild critical observation.

 

It may be not fully informed. Other posters, preferably from the appropriate background, are at liberty to question and correct it, if necessary. 

 

What peeves me is the insidious propagation of the attitude, into all corners of life today, that whatever business or government does is all for the best and shouldn't be questioned. Not that the few mild comments I have put up here would even constitute questioning.

 

So the reaction is interesting.

 

 

Nick

 

 

[Clunkclick]

UL is an electrical standard/accreditation

Trouble is fakers will just copy any of these marks to make a dodgy product look legit.

 

Presume there's no import licence on this type of item, or any other checking of authenticity by the state before it hits the street.  And you can guess what happens to the "Due diligence procedures" in the importers and buying departments.

 

So, who is checking on a "Before-the-event" basis that the BeaB registration, the plastic constituents (Including validating the "PA" recycling symbol) or the patent or that any of the other marks have been  legitamtely used.

 

I suspect that virtually no  pre-importation checking happens with regard to the mass of consumer products. Even with cars, where there is a formal type approval system, the first anybody finds out that anything is wrong is when the Vauxhall bursts into flames on your drive, the Suzuki jeep rolls over or the Volkswagen fails an emission test.

 

As said, on this item, there's no Chinese State quality mark or BSI Kite mark.

 

 

Nick

[gadgetman]

Take up your concerns with the retailer who is legally bound to ensure they comply with British & European legislation and are safe to use if you are that concerned.