VRS TSI Clutch Slip / Replacement after 17K Miles / Skoda reluctantly pays-out after proof of defect

[Orville]

Contacting Sachs is probably a very good idea. I will take closeup pictures to send to them.

The car was purchased from Preston Motors in Forest Gate. They have since lost their franchise so I now have to take the car 20 miles to get it serviced at Essex Auto Group in Raylegh. My original collection date was delayed by 3 or 4 days because Preston Motors had to "fix a problem spotted during PDA". I never discovered what the issue was, but it could have just been something minor.

Anyway, after two water-pump replacements, a sound generator failure, a slipping driver seat, a forced change of Dealers and a clutch failure (which Skoda thus far refuse to cover), I am feeling rather disgruntled. I actually really like the car (when it behaves), but at the moment I would neither recommend nor purchase another Skoda/VAG vehicle. My next car will be Japanese. The may be a bit tinny, but Japanese cars are at least mechanically robust. VAG needs to put more efforts into QC and CS, and less in to fabricating emissions figures.

Edited 4 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

The clutch on these are a self adjusting type, so the bite point should be in the middle of the pedal throughout it's life - from the description of the height of the pedal, it sounds like the SAC mechanism hasn't been working correctly. There have been instances in the VW range with Sachs clutches failing. You may not get much out of Sachs however, as the aftermarket side and the OE side are separate entities unfortunately. They do have a technical department (which I think you can find via the sachs website) in the UK, but they will probably not be able to help much as they will be aftermarket.

[Orville]

I have taken a full set of high-res images. I add a few below, but for the full set please check this link https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=73A101F181693680!4294&authkey=!AAOIX3HgJhCrxqQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

One of the chaps at work thinks that there is far too much friction material left on the disc for it to have been slipping or in need of immediate replacement. He adds that the pressure-plate looks good, and that it shows some signs of slight slip, but certainly not abuse. He thinks that it may have been a faulty install or release system issue. The rest of my colleagues won't touch a Skoda now .

 

The Dealer told me that the fins (cannot remember their correct name) on the pressure-plate are blue because of over-heating. To me it seems that blue is their natural out-of-factory colour, and there are photos of new Sachs parts on the web which show them to be blue also. They also charged me £15 extra just to keep my parts. Am I being striped-up?

 

Any comments or expert opinions are welcome.

 

Edited 5 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

Looking at the images above there is a fault with the pressure plate. Where you have got the straight edge across, there is a gap under the inner end, that tallies with the wear mark on the plate, and on the pressure plate, which would indicate a loss of clamp load due to the excessive run out on the pressure plate surface (if that makes sense) - possibly foreign body ingress into the inside of the cover, faulty SAC mechanism is another possibility, which would prevent the clutch from adjusting. The run out would also explain the uneven wear on the surface of the clutch disc as well, as it hasn't been compressed squarely on the flywheel

[Orville]

Looking at the images above there is a fault with the pressure plate. Where you have got the straight edge across, there is a gap under the inner end, that tallies with the wear mark on the plate, and on the pressure plate, which would indicate a loss of clamp load due to the excessive run out on the pressure plate surface (if that makes sense) - possibly foreign body ingress into the inside of the cover, faulty SAC mechanism is another possibility, which would prevent the clutch from adjusting. The run out would also explain the uneven wear on the surface of the clutch disc as well, as it hasn't been compressed squarely on the flywheel

Thank you very much for the reply. I took the picture with the straight-edge because I also thought it strange that the plates surface was very far from flat/square. Does anyone know for certain whether it should be completely flat? There is a clear ~1mm difference between inner and outer edges. The inside of the pressure plate definitely shows far less wear than the middle, suggesting improper contact.

 

Within the linked photos there is another photo with the straight-edge flipped 180 degrees (to show that the straight edge is straight).

 

Cheers.

Edited 5 May, 2016 by Orville

[Orville]

Here are two more images. The first shows the disc sitting on top of the pressure plate. Without load the inside disc edge sits extremely proud of the plate. When loaded the inside edges will meet, but I am bending the disc to achieve this. There is an even gap all around the inside edge. I guess that if the pressure plate was flat, disc & plate would never have met correctly at the inside edge, leading to excess slip and wear?

 

 

 

and zoomed

Edited 5 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

Difficult to say from the images really, but just from the straight edge test across the pressure plate and the pattern of wear, that you would only have had about 75-80% contact surface to transmit the torque from the engine. Worth keeping at them from the look of it, as the high bite point indicates a problem with the SAC to me.

Have a look at the 8th PDF down - LuK Self Adjusting clutch - I know it's not Sachs, but the principle is the same (I work for LuK in the technical dept)

[Orville]

Thank you again octyal.

 

I am 100% certain that driving style did not cause this clutch to wear/slip/fail. I have treated other cars much harsher and over far greater mileage within my earlier years, and clutches were fine on those.

 

What's a SAC?

 

edit: Found it, Self Adjusting Clutch.

Edited 5 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

http://schaeffler-aftermarket-mobile.com/en/start.php?formcontrol%5Bsubmit%5D=1&formdata%5Bbrand%5D=&formdata%5Bcategory%5D=&formdata%5Bproduct%5D=

 

forgot the link - oops

[neiln]

I'd agree with octyal.  I'm no expert, but I would expect the pressure plate to be flat, yours isn't.  I'd ask Skoda about that.

 

£15 to keep your parts?  that is criminal, what was the excuse for that?  IF it had been a warranty repair then i'd not expect the old parts, they would go to SUK as proof of work, but you paid.

[Orville]

I'd agree with octyal.  I'm no expert, but I would expect the pressure plate to be flat, yours isn't.  I'd ask Skoda about that.

 

£15 to keep your parts?  that is criminal, what was the excuse for that?  IF it had been a warranty repair then i'd not expect the old parts, they would go to SUK as proof of work, but you paid.

I have forwarded the new pictures to Essex Auto Group who will seek advice from Skoda Technical Support. If the pressure-plate is supposed to be flat (or flatter) then it appears I have a valid warranty claim. We shall see. One way or another there has to have been something wrong with the clutch system.

 

Regarding the £15, I was told that Skoda gives the Dealers £15 credit back when used clutches are returned to them. As the Dealer wouldn't get the £15 because I wanted to keep the parts, the cost was added to my bill. I wasn't told this until after the work was done, but what's £15 when I have been clobbered for £840 already? My presumption is that Skoda likes to keep the parts so that disgruntled customers do not post pictures of them all over the internet and bemoan unfulfilled warranty claims. Perhaps I am a cynic.

Edited 5 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

A lot of manufacturers do impose surcharges on metal parts these days - they take them back in and they get recycled into new parts - very common in the motor trade

[ExSEAT]

Really don't like the idea of that. Its a part off MY car that I paid for and then PAID to have replaced.

I'd have asked to have the 15 quid taken off and just to see them. Then picked them up and walked out. What are they going to do? Call the police and say I've stolen the parts off my own car?

Seriously though, that's really wound me up, especially so given the circumstance.

I'm glad to read the technical input above though, that £15 could pay for itself if the tech guys opinion serves to be correct. Fingers still crossed for you

[Orville]

From examination of the pictures and when feeling the disk texture itself there is clearly much more friction material on the inner edges. This is the same on both flywheel and clutch-plate sides of the disc, so there has definitely been far less contact on the inner 1.5cm than for the middle to outer 2.5cm. As far as I am aware the driver / driving-style cannot influence the actual disc contact area. From new my clutch seems to have been working at only two-thirds to three-quarters gripping capacity. No wonder it started slipping under full torque after such low miles.

 

As said above, the Dealer has forwarded my pictures to Skoda Techincal Support and he has promised to get back to me latest next Tuesday.

 

Thanks to all for your help and opinions.

[V6Jules]

Your photos and description make it pretty obvious to me that the pressure plate isn't flat so you have lost a huge amount of surface area available for transferring the drive. This has to be due to a manufacturing defect surely? There is no way the driver can make a clutch wear unevenly!

[themanwithnoaim]

Hmmmm. I'm not convinced the new one won't do the same unless they find the parts replaced are out somehow bent. If something else is misaligned and it hasn't been replaced, it'll just eat clutch 's for the rest of its life.

Still its not their money so, why would they care?

[Orville]

The only thing that has not been replaced so far is the flywheel. Originally I was told everything would be changed, but then I was informed that the flywheel was okay. From the looks of the concave pressure plate and unevenly worn disc I would assume that the flywheel is pretty flat (it certainly cannot be the same shape as the pressure plate). The new clutch feels completely different form the nearly-new clutch it replace. I am hopeful everything will be fine this time around.

Now I just have to wait and see whether Skoda thinks that the pressure plate should in fact be flat or dish-shaped, and whether they will honour a warranty claim for defective parts or faulty assembly. I must say that this has been a hell of a lot more fuss than I expected from a brand with a reputation for quality and good customer service. To me it seems that Skoda customers are presumed at fault unless the customer himself can prove a manufacturing fault. Thank goodness for the Internet and helpful people online.

Edit: This makes me wonder whether Golf R/GTI owners who have reported clutch-slip (usually within the first 10K miles) have suffered from exactly the same concave pressure-plate fault. They mostly seem to have had theirs replaced under warranty, so would not have retained/inspected/photographed the parts. VAG should have some record if it is a known problem, however they would likely keep it secret to prevent mass warranty claims.

Edit 2: Here are a couple of posts where Golf owners have had similar symptoms. There are some Cupra R reports as well.

http://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/9325-anyone-notice-slipping-clutch-often/page-1

http://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/5652-clutch-failure/

http://www.vwgticlub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20043

http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/19487/clutch-gone-on-my-leon-cupra-after-less-than-2-months-of-ownership

Edited 6 May, 2016 by Orville

[FLAPPERJACK7]

A concave clutch pressure plate is a cause of overheating. Might be worth weighing your left foot?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Edited 7 May, 2016 by FLAPPERJACK7

[Orville]

A concave clutch pressure plate is a cause of overheating. Might be worth weighing your left foot?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Do you mean the concave plate is the cause of overheating or an affect of overheating? From the wear marks it seems that the disc & plates only ever gripped properly around the outside portion. Would this not indicate signs of a manufacturing or assembly fault? I find it hard to believe that a forged pressure plate could warp 2.5% (1mm out of 42mm width) without it being severely abused, and then the entire surface would be blue/glazed. My plate shows signs of very mild overheating, almost certainly caused by poor contact. The inner 25% of the disc/plate has hardly been touched, and the littl wear that lies within the inner portion was probably caused after the outsides of the disc wore down quickly due to partial contact, which in itself coaxed slippage.

My feet are very big and most likely heavy, but also very well controlled. I am no expert, but I do know exactly how the car has been driven and it has not been treated badly.

Edited 7 May, 2016 by Orville

[FluffyEyeball]

A concave clutch pressure plate is a cause of overheating. Might be worth weighing your left foot?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Don't you mean a result of overheating? Being the cause would suggest that it was concave in the first place and not the drivers fault, which isn't what the rest of your post implies.

Edited 7 May, 2016 by FluffyEyeball

[FLAPPERJACK7]

VW warranty will say or believe that the fact it's concave is due to overheating and the most likely reason will be riding the clutch. I worked for them for 24 year's I know how they think and work. The fact your on this forum will probably go against you IMHO. Some worm at VAG will be reading this. If they pay for yours they will have to do the same for everyone else. Hence the 6k wear and tear warranty.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[octyal]

Except the level of heat soak on those parts is minimal, there is no way that can be down to heat damage, the pressure plate would have to be blue, and if it had got that warm, then the dmf would be toast and the friction plate would probably have destroyed itself as well.

[FLAPPERJACK7]

Except the level of heat soak on those parts is minimal, there is no way that can be down to heat damage, the pressure plate would have to be blue, and if it had got that warm, then the dmf would be toast and the friction plate would probably have destroyed itself as well.

I agree. But they at Vag will not.

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[Orville]

I would have thought that it will be in Skoda's interest to upheld a warranty claim when there is evidence of manufacturing fault. Otherwise they risk damage to their reputation. I am of course bias (I feel the wronged party here) but the pictures and Dealer comments show the following.

*The pressure-plate is clearly.concave. It is out by so much that any minimal signs of overheating cannot have caused it. It must be massively more plausible that a concave plate would be the cause of slip and overheating.
*The disc shows far more wear on the outside edge than on the inside. This confirms that the flywheel and plate were not square across the whole surface area.
*The pressure plate shows much greater wear around the outside edge, and hardly any on the inner edge. This additionally confirms uneven contact between plate, disc and flywheel.
*The flywheel is absolutely fine (according to Dealer). If abuse had melted/distorted the pressure plate then you would expect similar damage to the flywheel.

*Driver style cannot cause such uneven clutch contact.

There are some additional considerations, but many of these down to my word

*The car has been driven normally by my wife and I. Neither of us have abused it, ever.
*The original clutch bite point was really high from new. Due to SAC bite point remains the same throughout the life of the clutch. Dealer felt high bite point during demo.
*New clutch feels completely different and bites low. Both my wife and I REALLY notice the difference. Perhaps this was caused by the concave plate, or perhaps there was a secondary problem?

Finally, my belief is that the concave pressure plate caused reduced bite from new. As the miles increased the outside of the disc wore faster than the inside, creating less grip which caused slght slip. Further wear and slip created slight overheating which fed to further wear and slip. By the time I took the car to the Dealers slip was still extremely hard to reproduce, but it was very slightly noticeable. The reduced surface contact created by a misshaped pressure plate is what caused the slip and led to clutch replacement. To me this is a nailed-on manufacturing defect, and hence should be covered by the manufacturer. I know that the clutch has not been abused, so I intend to follow this through to a successful conclusion, however much time it takes. The pictures tell the story.

Edited 7 May, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

Pretty much sums it up I think, well worded. Have you managed to contact anyone at sachs technical? They may be able to provide some sort of assessment from the pictures, depends who you talk to. If you can't find the phone number, pop into a motor factor and see if they have the phone number. If it was LuK then may have been able to do something ☺