VRS TSI Clutch Slip / Replacement after 17K Miles / Skoda reluctantly pays-out after proof of defect

[Orville]

WARNING! Skoda UK warranty only covers NEW car clutches for 6,000 miles or 6 months from purchase. They will not honor warranty replacement of flywheel, clutch-disk or pressure-plate after this period, even when clear evidence of manufacturing or assembly defects are provided. Skoda's "60,000 mile, 3-year warranty" does not cover many expensive components. Always read the small-print, and do not simply assume that your Skoda will have a full warranty against manufacturing defects. If a clutch-related manufacturing defect becomes apparent after 6-months, Skoda will attempt to play the "wear & tear" card and do everything in their power to renege on warranty.

--Original Post
The clutch on my VRS TSI has started to slip after only 17K miles. It only happens occasionally when on full-throttle from 1800rpm within 5th & 6th gears. Revs will rise/blip by 400-500rpm before the transmission catches up. I noticed it first around Christmas time (~15K miles) but wasn't entirely sure whether I was imagining things. I called my dealer last week who said that clutches are considered wear & tear items and will not be covered under warranty unless a specific manufacturing fault is identified during disassembly. The problem is they want several hundred pounds just to check whether there is a fault, and then another £800 for clutch replacement if it is merely worn. To me it feels like a worn clutch, and I don't want to blow £800 on something that appears so weak and may only last another 20K miles.

Choices
#1 Treat it gently and hand the car back at the end of my PCP period (10 months to go).
#2 Bite the bullet and get the Dealer to replace the OEM clutch. There is a chance they will find a fault, but likelihood is that I will be £800 lighter. I would feel bitter about this because other cars I have owned have lasted for 70K+ without need for a replacement clutch.
#3 Buy an up-rated Sachs clutch which will hopefully last a bit longer. This will also provide room for an APR/Revo Stage1 once the warranty expires.

What would you do?
--End of original post

Edit: Progress Update 13/5/2016: Clutch has been replaced and dealer refused to cover under warranty due to Skoda's pathetic 6000 mile / 6 month warranty on NEW car clutches. Photos of pressure-plate and clutch-disc show obvious manufacturing or assembly fault which resulted in terribly uneven wear. Half of the pressure-plate & disc surfaces have clearly never made proper contact. I also suspect a secondary issue with the Salf-Adjusting-Clutch mechanism which further reduced clamping force. I am disputing a warranty claim with Essex Auto Group who are currently progressing with Skoda Technical Support.

See full set of high resolution photos at link below:-
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=73A101F181693680!4294&authkey=!AAOIX3HgJhCrxqQ&ithint=folder%2Cjpg

#1 The Pressure Plate only shows wear/contact around the outside. Inside is virtually untouched


#2 One-third to one-half of the Pressure Plate surface has not made proper contact with the Friction Disc.


#3 A straight-edge demonstrates that the Pressure Plate is concave/bowl-shaped. It should be flat.


#4 The Friction Disc only shows wear around the outside. The inside appears virtually new/untouched. Other than uneven wear (which the driver cannot cause), the disc is within very good condition.


#5 Zoomed #1 image showing areas of contact and improper contact. There is no indication of abuse or overheating, just uneven contact.



Edit: Progress Update 08/6/2016: Skoda refused to cover under warranty so I submitted the clutch for Independent Inspection.

My wife just called me to say that the Inspection Report has arrived at home. I will not post the full contents to safeguard my case arguments, but the conclusion is:-

"Failure of the clutch was due solely to a manufacturing defect"

I really should not have had to prove this independently. The Dealer Essex Auto Group and Skoda UK have been incompetent asses..

 

Edit: Progress Update 23/6/2016: Skoda still refuses to honour warranty despite being provided with the Independent Inspection Report. Essex Auto Group have offered a 50% refund against replacement clutch costs but I have rejected this. There is clearly a manufacturing fault and Skoda should cover full costs.

 

I now attach the conclusions from the inspection report.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Progress Update 19/7/2016

 

SUCCESS !!!

After nearly 3-months of arguing and escallation, VW Financial Servces called saying that my costs will be covered in full. The Dealer will refund 50% and VWFS will refund the other 50% of clutch costs. VWFS will also cover Inspection Report costs.

 

It really should have been much easier than this.

 

 

Edit: Progress Update 02/9/2016

 

It took Essex Auto Group a further 6-weeks to privide the cheque for the outstanding 50%, but I now have ALL of my money back. In totdal they have wasted >4 months of my time. I just have to hope the cheque clears...

 

Edit: 21/10/2016

Going back over old photos the manufacturing-defect was clearly evident with the pressure-plate picture that the Dealer provided me whilst the car was in-bits within the workshop on 29th April. For some reason they did not send this picture with the original batch of photos. I had to specifically request a pressure-plate photo. The Dealer picture shows obvious uneven wear/contact. It amazes how the Esses Auto Group numpties failed to spot or investigate this, and then proceeded to obstruct and deny there was a problem for many months. Even more amazing is that Skoda Customer Services, Technical Supoort and Legal Teams all chose to ignore it too (until the point immediately before Legal action).

 

My personal opinion is that the Delaer knew there was a fault, but decided they could extract more money out of me for the replacement than from Skoda. The Dealer then proceeded to try to cover-up their dodgy-dealing (or incompotence), and of course Skoda believed it Dealer rather than it's customer, even though the customer provided solid proof of defect.

 

Here is the Dealer worshop picture of my freshly removed and uncleaned pressure-plate.

Edited 27 October, 2016 by Orville

[michaelaa]

I know the clutches aren't very good on these but on a stock car, a clutch going after only 17,000miles is not very good IMHO.  I'd argue a bit harder and state that it isn't fit for purpose if you have to change it every 17,000miles! 

[M12MKD]

I'd speak to Skoda UK first.

 

Although I will agree that a clutch is a wear and tear item, you'd expect it to last longer than 17k.

 

Clutches are though subject to abuse (not saying that you have) so it is possible to wear one out in a very short space of time.

 

In my motoring life I have only had a wear issue on 2 cars, one was just old and had a lady driver so it was starting to slip before I got it and the other way my fabia mk1 vRS mapped to 180bhp and 104k miles on it. That only just started to slip a bit towards the end of ownership. Yet if you look on the mk1 forum there are people who have this issue on standard cars at less than half the mileage, my point I'm making is and why they have a "get out card" is down to used error (again not saying this is you).

[TDIum]

Clutches do wear but should last the reasonable life of a (not a taxi) car. The only time I've had one go was in my Renault 5 GT Turbo and that was almost certainly a result of abuse at the feet of a previous owner. 

 

Have you had the car since new? 

[Orville]

I have owned the car since new. My wife is a little heavy on the clutch and the car is used mostly around town, but it has not been abused in any way. There are a few stories of Golf GTI's and R's suffering early clutch failures (before reaching 10K). It seems that the stock clutches are very wimpy and can barely handle 256lb/ft of torque. Rather than wearing out, they just do not have sufficient clamping force. If I purchased a VAG car again it would definitely be a DSG, but I won't purchase another one car if £25K only buys me a clutch that lasts for 17K.

 

Here is a link to a GTI mk7 clutch failure thread. http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5879

Edited 20 April, 2016 by Orville

[neiln]

I'd heard of some rapid failures but not realised it was on stock cars, thought it was only remapped cars.  Oh dear.  Since I intend to keep the car I may need to research a clutch upgrade in the future then.  It's poor, but seeing how VAG have acted on various design failures recently, I doubt they will do a recall or such like.  Not inspiring at all.

 

For you, if you think you can nurse it, then nurse it.  If it doesn't make it through options are push Skoda for a good faith contribution, or get a local independent garage to do the work, which should cost a lot less than main dealer prices.

[Alpha2110]

I would see if you can get it to last till the end of the PCP and get rid. Or even try and get rid of the car early, it sounds extreme but you will never see that grand you have just spent when you flog the car, so unless you keep it its wasted money.

Also there could be another reason it's sliping, unlikely but oil contamination from a main bearing oil seal. You could be into serious money and there are a lot of unknowns. I expect any clutch on a production car to last longer than 17k, as your car haven't been screwed for all those miles has it? Basically it's not fit for purpose.

Edited 20 April, 2016 by Alpha2110

[ahenners]

Are you able to try another dealer? They don't sound very helpful! You should continue to press your dealer and Skoda UK.

17k is ridiculous for a clutch to be almost done through wear and tear. I had my clutch replaced at 57k under warranty on my MK2 TSI. There was an issue with the bearing and they ended up replacing the bearing and the clutch. No questions asked by the dealer, didn't even have to push them. At this mileage they could have quite easily argued wear and tear, but didn't.

[Orville]

I have just been on the phone to Skoda UK.

 

*Clutches are wear & tear items

*Skoda warranty covers the clutch assembly for 6 months / 6,000 miles only.

*Unless clear manufacturing or mechanical fault is proven, replacement costs must be met by the owner.

 

It seems that I will have to either nurse it until PCP handover, or purchase an up-rated clutch. My wife uses it mostly nowadays as I have a second car to play with. I just don't want the clutch to fail completely whilst she is driving it.

Edited 21 April, 2016 by Orville

[SuperbTWM]

Thing is, if there was a defect with the clutch friction material, its still just going to look like a worn clutch when they take it out and make you pay the bill. Its not like they are going to send it away for lab analysis or anything sophisticated like that.

 

While I sympathise with you, you can see why they take this view on clutches because you could easily wear out a clutch by abusing it in 17K and so without being able to prove how it has been driven they have to play it safe. Now I'm not saying that you have abused your clutch at all but that's just how it is unfortunately and it sucks big time. 

 

And don't just think this is a VAG thing, it happens across all makes and models. There was a case on watchdog a few years ago where a couple had 2 Fords cars and one of them had a faulty clutch at around 10K, of course Ford blamed them for slipping the clutch and their argument was that if they were slipping the clutch, why had the other car been fine for many many more miles.

[Orville]

Car is booked in to the Dealers for a "free" check next week. The clutch operation itself feels absolutely fine. There is no judder, engagement is progressive and I have never smelled any burning. I cannot imagine the clutch actually being worn out. It just feels like it lacks clamping force, almost as if 256lb/ft torque is asking too much of it. Apart from the occasional slip in 5th or 6th (most usually when accelerating from below 1800rpm upwards) it feels like a new clutch to drive. Pedal bite point has always been high, but this seems normal for these cars.

[FluffyEyeball]

But you're not putting 256lb/ft of torque through it most of the time. Or at least you aren't when driving normally. That torque figure is only the maximum at full throttle, the clutch should certainly be able to handle that figure if not more. Have you tested the biting point on another vRS to see if it is just as high as yours?

[Orville]

But you're not putting 256lb/ft of torque through it most of the time. Or at least you aren't when driving normally. That torque figure is only the maximum at full throttle, the clutch should certainly be able to handle that figure if not more. Have you tested the biting point on another vRS to see if it is just as high as yours?

Not had a chance to test another VRS, but bite-point has always felt high compared to previous cars. To be honest I rarely ever floor the throttle from under 2K rpm as I normally change-down if in a hurry. The fact that I have noticed slip means that I test it more often now just to see whether it happens again. I can probably make the clutch last until PCP hand-back time, but why should I have to drive around an issue? For all I know it may have been there since new or almost-new.

 

I am less annoyed today. The dealer will check it out and if there is a fault they will replace it under warranty. If not then VAG can sort it out after I hand the car back to them in a years time. My wife (who uses the car the majority of times nowadays) has never even noticed the problem so I may be overreacting. As said above, there are Golf R's and GTI's that have done this from new out of the factory so it seems these clutches may be generally weak. I should know by the end of next week. 

Edited 22 April, 2016 by Orville

[octyal]

You won't feel any difference in the operation of the pedal as it is a self adjusting clutch, designed to keep the same pressure on the friction plate through out it's life, and the same bite point.

 

 

But you're not putting 256lb/ft of torque through it most of the time. Or at least you aren't when driving normally. That torque figure is only the maximum at full throttle, the clutch should certainly be able to handle that figure if not more. Have you tested the biting point on another vRS to see if it is just as high as yours?

 

Not really 100% accurate - don't forget modern cars are engineered to develop max torque much lower down the rev range, and for much longer these days, hence the reason slip is being experienced. VW modified the clutch bleed connection (T piece on the slave) and also the hose on some cars, after they had issues with the hydraulics.

[Orville]

Short update! The Dealer has taken the car apart and identified a worn flywheel. They say it appears to be wear and tear so I will suck up the £800 bill for replacement flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate install. I have asked them to take pictures (promised tomorrow) and retain the old parts so that I can follow-up with Skoda. The car will not be ready until next week as parts are on order.

I must say that the dealer (Essex Auto Group) have been very understanding and have tried their hardest to help. It is not their fault that the stock clutch/flywheel has failed after mild use and 17k miles. They can only follow VAG's guidelines.

I will post pics once I have them. I am eager to see how much wear & tear can be caused by 17k of regular driving. Needless to say that I am not happy with the clutch/flywheel life, and I am lost as to why they have failed so quickly. To think that one of the mains reasons I ordered a manual gearbox was to negate the risk of DSG failure....

[FLAPPERJACK7]

Post the pictures. Ask them to explain what is wrong with the flywheel. Then go above them and contact Skoda uk for at least a goodwill contribution. Don't take it on the chin. 17k is pathetic.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Edited 28 April, 2016 by FLAPPERJACK7

[M12MKD]

Wtf? At 17k?

C'mon your a racing driver aren't you (joke).

I seriously cannot believe that under normal use it's worn that quickly.

[Orville]

My wife and I are no racing drivers, although she did once get an SP30 for driving 37mph in a 30 zone . I will occasionally give it some beans (when circumstances permit), but this really is occasionally and the car has not been abused in the slightest. I would edge that we treat the car kinder than most other VRS owners, and certainly better than many Golf GTI/R's I see tearing-around. Most of the time my kids are in the car and we are both cautious. The only contributor I can think of towards high wear would be that most of our miles are driven around town, but I have owned many other cars (including 3 other new VAG models) in 26 years of driving that have not experienced clutch problems due to my usage. The only clutch I have had to change was on am 11 year old 105K mile Ford, which was purchased used at 40-50K miles. My wife has never had to change a clutch within any of her cars previously.

 

I strongly suspect mechanical failure, contamination, bad batch, or assembly fault as the cause. I really cannot fathom how our driving style could kill a flywheel so fast. I have read that DMF's are weaker than SMF's, but surely they should last ~100K miles on a new car. Car has never been tracked or bounced off the red-line, and I always fully engage the clutch between gear changes and disengage before accelerating within gears 2+.

 

One again, the Dealer has been great. They just cannot replace it under warranty without VAG's approval, and VAG will not cover clutches after 6000 miles / 6 months.

 

I cannot find any other reports of flywheel wear after so low mileage, so I must be one unlucky sod. Not happy!

Edited 29 April, 2016 by Orville

[Orville]

What I do not get is why I had no symptoms of a worn flywheel. from within the car everything felt as good as new apart from slight clutch slippage under very specific circumstances.

 

Signs of flywheel wear

*Transmission Noise - None whatsoever, car was very refined when changing gears, under acceleration, and when trailing in-gear. Absolutely no clonking or chatter. My brand new Dealer courtesy car (Ford Fiesta Ecoboost) produces at least 10x greater transmission noise.

*Gear Slippage - None whatsoever, never happened.

*Burning Smell - None whatsoever.

*Clutch Vibrations - None whatsoever, always silky smooth.

 

I am guessing that the clutch-disc and pressure-plate were not worn out because these were not mentioned, other than to say that flywheel, disc and plate will all be replaced as part of the pack.

Edited 29 April, 2016 by Orville

[M12MKD]

 

 

Once again, the Dealer has been great. They just cannot replace it under warranty without VAG's approval, and VAG will not cover clutches after 6000 miles / 6 months.

 

 

 

TBH I've always found that dealership to be helpful and friendly when I got my Citigo from them. It's just too far to go everytime.

[Orville]

The story changes. I was apparently misinformed about flywheel failure yesterday. I did ask several times if they were sure that it was the flywheel at fault, and I was assured that "that is what the Technician said".

 

Anyways, I have spoken with a Technician directly today who says that the flywheel is fine and that it is the clutch/friction disc that is worn. He said that it is not work not worn out completely, but will be the cause of slippage and thus needs replacing. I asked about possibility of mechanical or component fault and he said there was no evidence of this, and that visually it looks like wear & tear. Whilst I am glad that it is not the flywheel I am still dumbfounded as to how the disc has worn so quickly. This is supposed to be a sporty car but it is not driven sportily with any frequency. Perhaps it was treatedt too gently from day#1, and had I abused it a bit then slippage may have occurred within the first few thousand miles and been covered under warranty?

 

Now I am left feeling bitter. This will be my last VAG car, and for once the wife agrees with me.

 

The Technician also says he has not seen a clutch fail so quickly before. He will send pictures later today.

 

I bet the clutch would be replaced under warranty if it was purchased within America.

[octyal]

The clutch on those is self adjusting, so should keep a constant pressure on the plate. VAG have had issues in the past with the sachs OE systems causing problems. Definitely argue the cause though, 17k is definitely low for it to be worn out.

As for determining failure, any number of possibilities, my money would be on an issue with the self adjusting mechanism not functioning properly

[M12MKD]

I would definitely kick up more of a fuss. Like I've said above I've never worn out a clutch even when it's been abused with excess power.

 

At 17k I would be kicking up more of a fuss. Unless you or your wife ride the clutch all the time, I'd expect it to last at least 80k-120k

[Orville]

Question to other VRS TSI owners. Is it normal that the clutch bite point sits towards the very top of the pedal and is quite narrow? This has always been the case on my car, and it took some getting used to at first.

[Orville]

Here are the pictures. To me there seems to be an element of uneven wear. I guess the question is did the slipping cause wear, or was it the wear that caused slipping?  I am not a mechanic, so feel free to comment / help me out.

 

I will take high-res photos when I pick up the parts next Tuesday.

 

Edited 29 April, 2016 by Orville