1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

 

I love the way they seem to think a £30K car is 'affordable'. The family on median earnings cannot afford to spend 1.5x annual income on car, not 'on the drip' and not as a single payment. (2018 median earnings is about £23600 after tax) The prices of electric cars needs to come down to be comparable with fossil fuelled cars (which are also too expensive IMHO).

I totally agree, £30k should be considered almost luxery. Give us a £20k EV in the size of a Golf. Admittedly, Cheapest Golf are still more than £20k. 

 

That £23.6k is for a single person isn't it? Not a family household income. 

(not trying to nit pick, just wondering about the stat) 

Yes that is median net income for a single person. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2018 gives a gross weekly figure of £569 pw for full time work, which is £29588 per annum. Assuming a full tax free coding, using this site gave me the net figure. And for clarity, I don't think anyone should base affordability on 'household income' as many partners do not work or work part time. Child care costs for the 'second income' often render that null also.

 

FWIW, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2019provisional gives median household disposable income as £29400 - which seems very high to me!

Many workers get paid for using their cars for work mileage.

 

It has been stuck at 45 pence per mile and some get a car allowance as well.

 

A very economically car ie like an EV that can run for a few pence a mile can work out a good buy and vehicle to run.

3 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Yes that is median net income for a single person. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2018 gives a gross weekly figure of £569 pw for full time work, which is £29588 per annum. Assuming a full tax free coding, using this site gave me the net figure. And for clarity, I don't think anyone should base affordability on 'household income' as many partners do not work or work part time. Child care costs for the 'second income' often render that null also.

 

FWIW, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2019provisional gives median household disposable income as £29400 - which seems very high to me!

I just had a look. Their definition of disposable income is not in the sense it is disposable pot of money. It is in the sense it is money after tax and NI. In effect, it is the after-tax income, aka the net income. 

 

So £29.5k translates to somewhere £40-45k headline salary figure for single earner. I thought the national average is around £30k? 

 

The household net income looks a bit low? That translates to single £40-45k earner, or two at around £20k each. 

 

Eitherway, I think a Skoda Octavia sized car costing around Skoda Octavia money (£20-25k) is about right. More money = more luxury or less money = smaller car. A Zoe for £18k is a bit too expensive and Leaf e+ asking for close to £40k is waaaay too much. 

 

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

It has been stuck at 45 pence per mile and some get a car allowance as well.

Isn't it a lot less now?  4p per mile according to this: https://autotrip.com/hmrc-mileage-rates-electric-cars/

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I just had a look. Their definition of disposable income is not in the sense it is disposable pot of money. It is in the sense it is money after tax and NI. In effect, it is the after-tax income, aka the net income. 

So £29.5k translates to somewhere £40-45k headline salary figure for single earner. I thought the national average is around £30k? 

The household net income looks a bit low? That translates to single £40-45k earner, or two at around £20k each. 

Eitherway, I think a Skoda Octavia sized car costing around Skoda Octavia money (£20-25k) is about right. More money = more luxury or less money = smaller car. A Zoe for £18k is a bit too expensive and Leaf e+ asking for close to £40k is waaaay too much.    Isn't it a lot less now? f

 

4p per mile according to this: https://autotrip.com/hmrc-mileage-rates-electric-cars/

 

I cannot remember a time I paid anywhere were near the retail price.  Eleventh commandment "never pay retail".

 Even better is to buy an ex-dealer car. Got my Octy a year old, 2/3rds price of new, low mileage and it pays the £20 pa road tax.   

 

25 pence per mile is the UK "Treasury" rate for running a car which includes energy costs and wear and tear but not depreciation. 

The 45 pence per mile, paid for the first 10,000 miles in a tax year, then 25 ppm thereafter, is to cover some depreciation.

 

I gather one home charge for about 4p a mile, less than half of a internal combustion engined car, but appreciate it is the buy and lease prices of EVs that are much higher than ICE.

This need the UK government to restore and enhance the EV grant that was cut from £4.5k to 3.5K.  It needs to be £5k plus £500 for the home charger IMO. 

 

It needs companies to charge their Benefit In Kind as well.  I get a car allowance and a fuel card but it needs to be an even larger car allowance that is then money taken off the fuel card benefit.

If mine was rebalanced I could have a £1k a month car allowance, enough for a Model 3, and then a smaller electricity subsidy from my company say £100 or so.  They would be no worse off and we would save the planet.    

 

20% off a Leaf.

208-e, Corsa and Zoe 52 KWh versions should be in the list in a few months, discounts might be low initially.  Best to buy in Spring, Summer as EVs go much further in range in the warmer months ! 

 

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If you sort by price: 

Nissan Leaf medium hatchback EV: £27.6k. 

Nissan X-Trail huge 7 seat SUV: £25.7k. 

Mercedes A180 comparible medium hatchback but with premium badge: £21.4k. 

 

With more and more people wanting EV's (hopefully), yet with the limited battery supply, EV demand vs supply will mean you'll see bigger and bigger gap between these discounted prices. The only way is for ICE manufacturers to invest heavily in EV and battery factories, like VAG. 

Everything is constrained by battery supply shortage.

Tesla China is going with CATL who are building a factory in Germany also.

I am hopeful that the Maxwell dry cell tech and the Hibar production machinery become exclusively Tesla supply for all it’s vehicles asap.

Tesla first Germany second -

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125896_report-from-germany-tesla-years-ahead-german-automakers-falling-behind

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125940_2020-tesla-model-3-is-the-most-energy-efficient-us-passenger-vehicle

Edited 10 November, 20196 yr by Ryeman

 

 

 

Segway's prototype wheelchair crashes at tech show.   Nice that the Max speed is 24 mph (38 km/h)

http://bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51058419

 

On 24/10/2019 at 13:31, lol-lol said:

Many workers get paid for using their cars for work mileage.

 

It has been stuck at 45 pence per mile and some get a car allowance as well.

 

A very economically car ie like an EV that can run for a few pence a mile can work out a good buy and vehicle to run.

You don’t get 45p if you get an allowance, it’s between 10 and 14p or 5p for electric.

 

I think the world may have just learned that single source applies to a single country or region too. All these fancy cars, will likely be late now.

Edited 10 February, 20206 yr by cheezemonkhai

On 10/02/2020 at 10:32, cheezemonkhai said:

You don’t get 45p if you get an allowance, it’s between 10 and 14p or 5p for electric.

I think the world may have just learned that single source applies to a single country or region too. All these fancy cars, will likely be late now.

 

I worked it out that I get 18 pence per mile for the first 10k miles and then 10p per mile after 10k.  I calculate that as I get no mileage payment from my employers but I get a good car allowance payment plus I get a fuel card.  So one can claim, and the magic tax software used, inputs the business miles, say 25k, and the mileage benefit received, ie zero, and give me the massive tax relief mentioned above.

 

Both my car allowance and fuel BIK get wacked for 40% tax so quite painful.

 

Electric cars owners can be paid the same 45/25 ppm and not get hit by tax, the 4p per mile is the advised fuel cost.  

 

One thing I have never got an HMRC answer for is what mileage to declare.  Car odometers are often about 5% over-reading.  One should stop every two hours for comfort break so claiming 2,3,4,5,6 % more than the Google maps distance is OK then ?  Does one go by the fastest route, or the economical route, several miles shorter but a few minutes slower.  Never seen categorical rules on this.

 

Back in HMRC some fellow Officers would tell their Senior Officers of their intention to use public transport when they hit the 10K mileage until it reset.  The Senior Officer did their nut, ahh fun times.  

 

Edited 11 February, 20206 yr by lol-lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As Electric prices in the UK and probably everywhere go high then battery storage makes even more sense for getting energy at off peak times.     Battery storage at EV charging hubs and having your vehicle or vehicles topped up at lowest possible prices at home or workplace chargers.       It has been made out by energy providers that you help balance the grid while charging during the off peak periods, time will tell how low the cost per kWh can stay compared to the rest of a day / night 

Edited 19 September, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

This topic has been a bit quiet lately.

From an Australian context the time is nearing where the price I'm prepared to pay, the supporting infrastructure and battery technology will come advance to a point where I would buy an EV. Unfortunately it is unlikely to a be a Skoda.

 

Some long promised Australian research is likely to influence future EV battery tech and supporting infrastructure.

 

Lithium Sulphide batteries have long been known to offer much higher energy densities than existing options (up to 6x) but they were never capable of many recharges (massive expansion and contraction over the use cycle)

Australian uni research had improved it from 5 recharges to around 50 but it was announced last week they had managed to improve it even further to around 500 recharges.

Apparently they have managed to control the problem by adding sugar, prompting many Mary Poppins references in the headlines. 

Still a long way to go but apparently there are a few performance car manufacturers knocking on their doors.

If they can get it into production then the implications for vehicles, aviation, well almost everything, would be revolutionary.

 

Most of the technology used in currently produced solar panels was developed in Australia, but (at least) one of the scientists involved was Chinese and he set up production in China aided by the other Australian scientists. They made a lot of money.

Anyway a small Australian start up company has a produced a PVC (photo voltaic cell)  which has set a new efficiency world record. Ok it has only moved it by a couple of points (I think from 25.3 to 25.5%) but this is quite a big deal because the theoretical maximum is 27% (for a single layer silicon base).  The REALLY remarkable thing is that they have achieved this by replacing the fairly high amount of expensive silver used in conventional solar cells with copper (99% cheaper than silver).

 

IF we are going to produce more electricity with solar then it needs to be stored which segways into the next battery development of a production ready Nickel Bromide Gel battery. Nickel Bromide solution batteries have been available for years (Redarc) but involve pumps/valves etc. which offset their advantages of cheap materials and excellent high cycle use.

The innovation is to turn the solution into a gel which overcomes the disadvantages. Apparently it does not require any special cooling and no risk of fire (the gel is a fire  suppressant). It does not have the density of Lithium batteries but can easily replace lead acid on a production line with similar outputs at half the weight.

It can support multiple 100% energy cycles so is an excellent domestic and large storage option at prices of around A$100 per kwh. Totally recyclable as well.

 

 

Edited 7 October, 20214 yr by Gerrycan

UK funding on Innovation with tech startups, includes a Portable Charging System.

http://www.gov.uk/government/news/nearly-2-million-to-be-given-to-tech-start-ups-to-power-up-the-transport-revolution

 

 

Edited 8 October, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Bit of a hiccup in the drive to Zero Emissions. 

https://europe.autonews.com/suppliers/vw-daimler-stellantis-face-raw-material-bottleneck-ev-batteries

 

Here is another promising new Australian developed battery chemistry that is exiting the laboratory and going into production.

Graphene Enhanced Aluminium Ion.

 

They are not claiming any greater energy density, other than over rival Al-ion competitors, but that it can be charged and discharged at 60x time the rate of lithium ion without any temperature issues, it is virtually a super capacitor.

No lighter than equivalent lithium batteries they claim it saves the 80 kg of temperature management equipment a typical 100kwh system requires. Other advantages are no rare metals, easy recycling and no fire risks.

 

They have entered into an agreement with Bosch to build production facilities. Initial production will be button cells followed by lithium ion compatible pouches for auto applications.

 

Bosch to produce Aussie EV battery tech - carsales.com.au 

We (Bollore-Blue-Solutions) already have quite high energy density for Metal lithium batteries and now licencing the tech to Mercedes who are using in their buses as we do with the buses we produce....

 

https://www.blue-solutions.com/en/

 

Now spreading out to vehicles involved in airport handling and many similar tasks.

 

Mercedes Buses (12m) and even some of the LMP packs in the roof space which is unusual placement ie for centre of gravity etc........

 

 

On 30/10/2021 at 16:09, lol-lol said:

We (Bollore-Blue-Solutions) already have quite high energy density for Metal lithium batteries and now licencing the tech to Mercedes who are using in their buses as we do with the buses we produce....

 

https://www.blue-solutions.com/en/

 

Now spreading out to vehicles involved in airport handling and many similar tasks.

 

Mercedes Buses (12m) and even some of the LMP packs in the roof space which is unusual placement ie for centre of gravity etc........

 

 

Very interesting, I did not know there were solid state options already in production but reading the specs the larger battery package option is still about 550 litres and weighs 450 kg which is both bigger and heavier than I expected for the technology. Durability and design simplicity claims are impressive though. What is the price premium over conventional lithium and does it handle multiple deep cycles well (I'm expecting 'yes')?

double post...

Edited 3 November, 20214 yr by cheezemonkhai