Battery problem

[rum4mo]

I'd guess that you will need to wait until we are all driving around in hybrid/electric cars before modular/repairable (traction) batteries appear in cars.

Edited 21 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[sepulchrave]

The "Camping" battery is not a leisure battery, its the old 60Ah (600CCA) Varta Car battery refered to above i..e. the predecessor  to the current car battery, which has  3 good cells remaining i.e. 38% capacity and which was retained, 2.5 years ago,because it still had four good cells (Now reduced to three)  in it . According to the current flow diagram in the Haynes manual, the cigarette lighter socket is fused by a 15A fuse (F42).

 

Normally, the engine, when cranked, catches within 3-4 seconds, even in cold weather. Even if the starter drew the full 15 A through the wiring (Which must be designed to handle that for the purposes of powering the cigarette lighter) would that current damage the wiring/blow the fuse in 3-4 seconds ? And, if the fuse blows in less time the circuitry is protected, surely ?

 

If not,  the simple solution is just to break the connection between the battery in the footwell and the cabin cigarette lighter socket when starting the engine.

 

Seems a waste to  bin or relegate both batteries to "Camping" duties only when  one's got 80%  capacity left while the other has 40%.

 

Out of interest, have there ever been proposals put forward to modularise batteries i.e. make each battery from 3 x 2 cell modules. Given that most car batteries become unusuable when the two cells nearest the positive terminal go U/S, leaving the remaining 4 cells in good condition, this would be a boon to the consumer.

 

Nick

 

Ok, so the camping battery isn't a camping battery, it's scrap metal. Take it to be recycled, you might get paid for it but I doubt it. Most of the Lead from dead car batteries is used to re-manufacture new car batteries anyway.

 

You can indeed buy individual 2V cells of various physical sizes but they're traction batteries and not suitable for starting a car. They're also VERY expensive by comparison and a lot heavier.

 

Car batteries are cheap, buy a new one.

[rum4mo]

Well in my case of the Ibiza with possibly still a battery drain issue, I left it unused for 7 days and 2 hours, the same period of time I left it two weeks ago that allowed it to discharge too far to start the car last Saturday, that time it had a solar charger connected to the OBD2 socket, this time no solar charger connected - just the car locked up. I checked the battery voltage prior to unlocking the car, it was 12.32V, connected an analogue meter to the battery monitor lead and tried to start the car, no problem, voltage on the analogue meter during cranking was 10.5V, so either this car has an intermittent problem which inconveniently caught me out last week when we returned from holiday, or maybe that car has an EMC problem that has been responding to whatever disturbances occur at an airport, car park is right up beside the plane parking area - maybe we need to got away for another week's holiday!

On the subject of checking the battery, my battery analyser arrived today, I did spend money and bought it cheaply instead of using vouchers and paying 50% more, anyway battery good CCA still close to manufacturer's figure - could not match analyser exactly to battery rating as it moves in 50A steps and battery is 540, and it returned a test figure of 525. Other than that I am still poking around in the dark, hopefully with a fully charged booster pack in the boot - for the next time.

[poiuytre111]

I have read this thread through and have the following to offer:-

Fix your current drain as there is little point replacing the battery only to ruin a second one, if indeed the first is ruined. As was pointed out early on, this requires a process of elimination until you get down to about 30 to 50 ma. At 140ma a brand new 60ah battery will be flattened in 17 days - do the sums. I would expect a car to last considerably longer before flattening its battery. Take out bulbs in the interior and boot light and so on.

 

Your current battery is probably on the way out but the means by which you judge this are flawed so it many not be. If you really had a "dead cell" you would lose the 2 volts it should contribute plus another 2 volts as they often go negative, leaving you with about 9 volts only. Your cranking amps shows an excellent result and I would not be rushing to change the battery, myself.

 

You shouldn't be surprised that a CTEK will charge a battery more after it has been standing a few hrs.  When you take it off charge the battery will show anything over 14 volts but will normally fall back a little to 12.6 to 13.2 say. When you next apply the CTEK it sees a different set of circumstances and will act accordingly.

[rum4mo]

Clunkclick, "quote:-  The battery analyser arrived today. Hoorah !

 

When applied across the battery terminals (Car had been standing since use last night), with the battery leads disconnected, gave the following report:-

 

Good Battery

 

Volts               12.5 v

Measured       613 CCA

Rated              610CCA    

SOC: 88%       SOH: 84%"

 

 

I am/was guessing that you bought a CTEK Battery Analyser from Maplin(?) - that is what I bought, but it does not give any indication of SOC or SOH - just " 12.7V Battery Good and CCA525"  I'm sure that that is all the display gives - or am I missing something?  Your quoted measured CCA figures indicate that your battery  analyser can discriminate down to 1CCA when my CTEK one can only discriminate down to 25CCA same as the programming steps when  setting it up. Just in case I'm missing a trick some where!!

Edited 25 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[rum4mo]

Ah, I think that I've worked out what you bought, a Foxwell BT100!

 

Edit:- dragging this on a bit more, well some of us need to resolve our problems!  Car alarm, do these cars have a back-up battery contained within the alarm siren assembly, and if so does this alarm back-up battery get connected permanently to the car's main battery?  It is just that I read once about an issue that Audi A6 had with back-up batteries failing and there was a proceedure written out for replacing the original battery with something better and cheaper. In my case of the late 2009 Ibiza, at least that car does not have interior monitoring, so that is one thing less to consider.

Edited 26 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[Clunkclick]

Clunkclick, "quote:-  The battery analyser arrived today. Hoorah !

 

When applied across the battery terminals (Car had been standing since use last night), with the battery leads disconnected, gave the following report:-

 

Good Battery

 

Volts               12.5 v

Measured       613 CCA

Rated              610CCA    

SOC: 88%       SOH: 84%"

 

 

I am/was guessing that you bought a CTEK Battery Analyser from Maplin(?) - that is what I bought, but it does not give any indication of SOC or SOH - just " 12.7V Battery Good and CCA525"  I'm sure that that is all the display gives - or am I missing something?  Your quoted measured CCA figures indicate that your battery  analyser can discriminate down to 1CCA when my CTEK one can only discriminate down to 25CCA same as the programming steps when  setting it up. Just in case I'm missing a trick some where!!

No the Chinese one which Halfords sells (But i got mine through Amazon.) And it calculates and states ALL the figures i quoted.

 

Anyway, I'm ****ed again. Went to use it after 7 days of disuse and it was Totally flat - not even juice to run the instrument cluster display. Yet, I jump started it and used the car yesterday for a 60 mile round trip and when I went to start it this morning, its started first time. 

 

IMHO, if this was a totally banjaxed battery, say one in which the plates were no longer covered with electrolyte, then you would expect that it wouldn't even hold  charge overnight. But it does. And its only the situation in which it experiences moderate disuse of 7 days that it fails. This suggests to me a continrouous drain of 375 ma (63AH/(7x24). 

 

But of course it doesn't have to be a constant drain, could be intermitent per the reported brake switch/aftermarket radio/door locks problems.

 

To do the drain measuring correctly, I've got to have everything shut down, including the doors, and then measure the drain before the convenience unit shuts down and after the convenience unit shutsdown - the difference being at least 0.5 a.

 

And of course, I've got to do a VCDS Re-scan  (And spurious  error code delete)as the engine management light is  now on with the engine running.

 

Oh well more measuring tomorrow and a C-Tek recharge.

 

I stand to be corrected, but IMHO, this definitely isn't just a partially failed battery, there is a substantial current drain going on - prime candidate, according to the last VCDS scan (Above) is the A/C  unit. I'd like to pull the relevant fuse, anybody know the number, as the current flow diagram in the  Haynes manual doesn't refer to air con only the heater blower (Fuses 68 and 12).

 

Other candidates are boot/glovebox/courtesy lights (Already discounted), door locks, radio relay, alternator rectifier, window motors, brake light switch, starter, power steering sensor (But steering weight is normal). The other alternative is that the alternator is not charging as it should (Damage to the earthing wire) but the battery light comes on with the turn of the ignition switch and goes off when the engine's running.

 

Nick

[rum4mo]

Yes I posted again after that posting to point out that I had worked out that it was the Foxwell BT100 that you had bought, Gendan do sell Foxwell stuff so I would not expect that it is totally naff - I think that they ask at least Halfords money for it!  It is working well enough for you.

 

Intermittent battery drain, hum, it would be handy to have the ability to accurately log the voltage across every one of the car's fuses for a period of 7 to 14 days - but that is just wishful thinking!

 

I'm lucky as I don't need this car to run, so I'm trying to get a better picture of how often this excessive drain happens statistically, but that takes so long, in fact I can just check this car every week, recharge if discharged and keep going - if for no other reason than to see if it is worth sorting it out, crap crap crap! Then disconnect some circuits and repeat!

 

Edit:- the CTEK battery analyser offers less in the way of read out information, it just gives out the present battery voltage and present CCA, and a selection of statements like RECHARGE BATTERY (if voltage is too low)  BATTERY GOOD (if the measured CCA is within ??% of the figure you input prior to test)  REPLACE BATTERY (if the meaured CCA is outwith ??% of the figure you input prior to test), which, now that I have bought it and seen how it works, is good enough for me - actually you don't need to input any figures as when you test the battery you can compare the measured value with the value on the battery.

Edited 29 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[Clunkclick]

Being systematic, before doing anything else, I suppose I should verify  the ability of the battery to hold a charge in several ways.

 

The electronic tester says it OK or within the +80 - 100% State of Health.

 

The other test would be to get a motor shop to use a professional discharger to rapidily discharge it and see if the prescribed voltage level is maintained during the discharge. But I suspect that modern lead batteries with calcium additive wouldn't stand the discharge without being damaged. So, that might invalidate the remaining 2.5 years left on the 5 year warranty.

 

Alternatively, i could prise the tops off the "Sealed-for-Life" cells, to see if there was sufficient electrolyte in each cell to cover the plates, again, if i did that, I could wave bye-bye to  the balance left on the warranty..

 

I think I'll just take it out and re-charge using the C-Tek and then experiment with selective fuse removal whilst the vehicle is unuused to see if I can prolong the charged state for a period approaching what it used to be - four weeks !

 

Anything more major is going to have to wait, as i'm currently expecting to be called back to hospital for some more in-patient treatment.

 

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Trying to expedite matters , I E-mailed the on-line supplier from whom I bought the current battery to find out what the arrangements are for getting a refund on the unexpired portion of the 5 - year battery warranty. They replied as follows:-

 

"Thank you for your email and order number. Please see warranty procedure below:

 

Warranty Procedure 

 

If you have fully charged your battery and think it is faulty there are 2 options on how to process your warranty claim: 

 

Option 1 -Having the battery tested yourself Take the battery to a local garage for a battery test. Make sure the battery is fully charged and over 12volts when the test is performed. Ensure that the voltage is shown on the test report. Send the test report via fax, email or post with a copy of your invoice or order number. Make sure your address and phone number are included. When we have received the test report and the invoice we will call you to arrange a new product to be sent to you and collection of the faulty item. Battery Megastore UK Ltd do not refund the cost of any test reports received. 

 

Option 2 - Returning the battery for Test Call us with your invoice / order number, we will then take a deposit of £20 and collect your battery for testing. If the battery is faulty we will refund your deposit and send you a new battery along with a voucher for 5% off your next order. If your battery is not faulty we will send the battery back to you with the print out from the tester. The battery will be sent back fully charged and ready to use. Under the warranty no refunds will be issued. "

 

I'm thinking of doing option 1 and wonder whether I could short cut the procedure by using a VCDS printout (I have a VCDS cable) as it appears, at least for Audi's, that a couple of module's capture relevant battery data:-

 

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/397782-Check-battery-status-with-vag-com-(quite-useful)

 

And I'm not keen on taking the battery to a local testers as I'm concerned that the discharge test/volt drop test might damage/further damage this type of calcium battery. Will a discharge test damage the plates in lead-calcium batteries ?

 

Anybody have experience of using VCDS to obtain battery data for this purpose ? Will it work on a Fab ? And would the battery companies be likely to accept it as evidence of battery failure ?

 

Thanks

 

 

Nick

 

 

[rum4mo]

Well from my experience of seeing what the battery voltage quoted on VCDS is, I would not bother as the voltage on my 2011 Audi S4 tends to be quoted as 13.2V and that is for an AGM battery that is in a car which had not been used for a couple of weeks, wife's new Polo with its ELB battery also shows very high voltages in VCDS, by the way, I think that VCDS might only list battery voltages on cars with BEM systems built in.

 

Honestly, I think that you need to stop the continuous high current drain as from where I am, you seem to have a good enough battery and are lucky to have a continuous battery drain, I say lucky as if my battery drain was continuous, I'd stand a chance of locating the "why/what" and not where I am just chasing shadows.

[Clunkclick]

It would seem that some of the latter marques of Skoda and VW have this battery data retention capability:-

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/353688-replacing-main-car-battery-might-require-can-gateway-coding/

 

 

. . . and that, ideally, you might need to do an adaptation recode to the stored battery parameters, using VCDS or similar, in order for the EMU and electrical systems to use and treat  a battery correctly. This, I assume, would be more important if the new battery you were installing  had a different  specification to its predecessor i.e. type of battery , capacity. It seems that the ECU even retains data about the make of battery !

 

Does a Mk 1 Fab require this re-code to operate a battery correctly ? If so, it might explain, why my current one hasn't lasted full-term. 

 

 

I've never done a  re-code let alone one for changing the battery ! And the battery's been changed at least twice since 2003 when the car was new.

 

 

Nick

Edited 1 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

And I'm not keen on taking the battery to a local testers as I'm concerned that the discharge test/volt drop test might damage/further damage this type of calcium battery. Will a discharge test damage the plates in lead-calcium batteries ?

 

No it won't damage it because it isn't completely discharging it, it simply measures voltage droop under load, this is the only way to get vaguely accurate battery health information.

 

Edit: To say that you're overthinking all this would be a considerable understatement.

Edited 1 October, 2016 by sepulchrave

[Clunkclick]

Well from my experience of seeing what the battery voltage quoted on VCDS is, I would not bother as the voltage on my 2011 Audi S4 tends to be quoted as 13.2V and that is for an AGM battery that is in a car which had not been used for a couple of weeks, wife's new Polo with its ELB battery also shows very high voltages in VCDS, by the way, I think that VCDS might only list battery voltages on cars with BEM systems built in.

 

Honestly, I think that you need to stop the continuous high current drain as from where I am, you seem to have a good enough battery and are lucky to have a continuous battery drain, I say lucky as if my battery drain was continuous, I'd stand a chance of locating the "why/what" and not where I am just chasing shadows.

Presumably, voltage data capture is the job of  the thin wires that attach to the main battery leads. So, VW/Skoida won't waste money installing those extra wires in the wiring loom unless they are performing a function.

 

Nick

 

 

 

Nick

[rum4mo]

Back on the need to "code in" a new battery, my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza does not have any smart BEM system, so on it it was just a case of being sensible and replacing the battery with an equal or better one using common sense and battery specs. When you are up against a newer car that requires that action, the original battery and any proper replacement, will have lots of BEM information on it to get copied into the car's BEM using manufacturer's tools, in our case VCDS will do that.

[rum4mo]

Presumably, voltage data capture is the job of  the thin wires that attach to the main battery leads. So, VW/Skoida won't waste money installing those extra wires in the wiring loom unless they are performing a function.

 

Nick

 

 

 

Nick

 

On my S4, I think that there is a battery management module mounted close to the battery in the boot!  On the Polo, so far I have not noticed where that module is located, but I'd think that it needs to be able to sense the true voltage level at all times.

[Clunkclick]

No it won't damage it because it isn't completely discharging it, it simply measures voltage droop under load, this is the only way to get vaguely accurate battery health information.

 

Edit: To say that you're overthinking all this would be a considerable understatement.

Just like professionals & semi-pros, us amateurs, when we have the time, and I do now, like to keep up with developments, if only to assist in the quest for semi-intelligent customerhood. I know many on here would say, for various reasons, "Don't bother, you haven't got a scoobies", but I've found from personal experience that even a little contemporary knowledge can assist the improvement of purchasing outcomes e.g. when  The trained advisor at the main dealership tell's you that the noise made by a worn input shaft bearing on the gearbox is in fact fuel pump noise, I think I can be fairly confident, from results obtained from elementary testing procedures learned the auto didatic way, in drawing a preliminary conclusion that I'm being bull****ted.

 

The economic difference for me of getting to the root of this issue is 21 months of unexpired battery warranty or £30. Not much,to some, perhaps a couple of tube of man hug moisturiser, but worth having for me Just you wait 'til you're ecking out your pensioner stipend !

 

Nick

 

Nick

[rum4mo]

I still think from what you have reported that that car has a problem with a current drain when it is switched off and locked up - persue that with all your might and if you resolve it, that battery will perform okay.

 

It sounds like if you did manage to get some money back on that battery and fit the biggest that can be fitted into that car's battery space, then all you will get is a few days longer of out of use time before that next battery went flat like the one currently fitted.

[Clunkclick]

Took the battery out this evening but before doing so I tested it with the battery analyser.

 

That showed:-

 

Volts        11.95

CCA         476

Rated       610

SOC          19%

SOH           66%

 

That's well down from when it was re-installed, fully re-charged on the C-Tek on 14th September:-

 

Volts     12.5

CCA      613

Rated    610

SOC        88%

SOH        84%

 

 

And during the period 14/09 -1/10 the usuge was as follows;-

 

In week 1 it was used once for a  30 mile round trip (14/09)

 

In week 2 it was used once for a 6 mile round trip (21/09)

 

By week 3 it was completely flat and had to be jump started (28/9) for a 60 mile round trip. And was used again on 29th for a 10 mile round trip.

 

I think now its past the marginal stage and has well and truly had it despite it being able to start the engine this evening with no problems on 19% SOC, 66% SOH, 11.95v - unbelievable !

 

So I will be charging it up this evening and taking to a local battery place for testing and reporting (Per the suppliers stipulation) tomorrow.

 

Before starting the engine this evening I did a VCDS scan and got the values below. After DTC, only the powertrain data bus error code remained. So that mirrors how it was on 14/09. But what I also noticed was that the drain current, as measured at the negative terminal   of the battery, was highly volatile, varying between 0.28 A and 0.41 A before the DTC , eventually  falling, after the DTC reset, to a steady 0.20 A after about 10 minutes. So I presume that the low battery voltage, when the car was at rest, was causing the door looks to misbehave  and intermitmently try to activate/deactivate drawing current- hence the VCDS error code ? And a possible source of intermittment drain on an already knackered battery.

 

One to watch out for in future.

 

 

Address 01: Engine        Labels: 036-906-034-APE.lbl   Part No: 036 906 034 DF   Component:  MARELLI 4MV        5020     Coding: 00071   Shop #: WSC 25021     VCID: 59B3E0EDC338878A89-4B18      SKZ7Z0B1485705

 

3 Faults Found:

 

16786 - EGR System        

 

P0402 - 35-10 - Excessive Flow - Intermittent

 

 

18043 - Powertrain Data Bus        

 

P1635 - 35-00 - Missing Message from A/C Controller

 

 

17811 - EGR System        

 

P1403 - 35-10 - Regulation Deviation - Intermittent Readiness: 0000 0000

 

 

And . . .

 

Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 6Q0-959-433.lbl   Part No: 6Q0 959 433 E   Component: 31 Komfortgerát     0001     Coding: 00067   Shop #: WSC 13765     VCID: 3D7B547D37505BAA85-4B00

 

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 6Q2959802   Component: 31 Tõrsteuer.FS TFK 0002  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 6Q2959801   Component: 31 Tõrsteuer.BF TFK 0002

 

2 Faults Found:

 

01331 - Door Control Module;

 

Driver Side (J386)         53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent

 

01332 - Door Control Module;

 

Passenger Side (J387)         53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 1 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Omg, FOUR pages about a battery that won't hold its charge, waiting for the punchline now...

[rum4mo]

Well, having just recently become the owner of a DIYer priced battery analyser, I would say that if that test had been done using my CTEK analyser, it would have said "RECHARGE AND RETEST" - also I'm thinking that that Foxwell BT100 Battery Analyser will give a higher CCA and so SOH reading after recharging, and I don't think that should happen.

 

But there again maybe your battery has suddenly chosen to give in! 

 

Good Luck with getting some money back.

[Clunkclick]

Omg, FOUR pages about a battery that won't hold its charge, waiting for the punchline now...

You  obviously haven't worked in the Civil Service . . 

 

Not to worry, the closing down sale . . . coming soon.

 

The difficulty for me was determining whether this battery had really "Gone bad" or whether it was some massive intermittment electrical drain that was just periodically flattening it - quite a reasonable supposition as the car is 13 years old. What was "Throwing" me was the fact that the battery was still able to crank and start the engine without difficulty even when substantially depleted and with voltage readings that showed the battery had only 25% or less of rated capacity in it.

 

Also, this is the first battery I have had that has failed within the warranty (They've all been Bosch or Varta) and failed in this semi ambiguous manner.

 

I think I am now satisfied that the major problem is the battery and that the other effects are consequential - although the AC error code is a little worrying, but then that's been faulty in one way or another and unfixed  by the dealer since, in a lasting way, since 2006. Quite honestly they could remove the aircon lump out and I wouldn't miss it.

 

The way foward for the future, given my car usuage pattern isn't going to change, is perhaps to buy a battery with a lower amp-hour rating and CCA - for instance Kwik fit, bless-em, recommend a 45 amp hour.(420 CCA), for my car.  That way, when it fails, it won't crank the engine and the conclusions/options will be more obvious.

 

N

Edited 2 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

I think that when I was faced with 11.91V (I think) after opening the Ibiza and after it had run the fuel pump, I thought that there was no way it would start with that (newish) battery - I was completely wrong!

 

I always thought that you were reporting a continuous and not a intermittent current drain when locked up.

 

Time/Paperwork, yes I spent my entire working live for a aerospace supplier and all countries liked to take a bit of time over things and amass tonnes of paperwork!

[sepulchrave]

Since I'm a project guy results take priority over process, I'm always looking for shortcuts because there are deadlines and budgets to meet, paperwork is the enemy of practical progress.

You two sound institutionalised to my delicate ears, I've learned to selectively ignore the hum, click and buzz of career administrators in order to get things done.

[Clunkclick]

Captain Obvious afterthought . . 

 

My generation of car is perhaps disadvantaged in using the current generation of sealed for life batteries when it comes to failure mode, because you can't use the gold standard diagnosis method of previous generations - the hydrometer. Equally, even when using the full capabilities of VCDS, my generation of car isn't equipped with the BEM data capture devices of later marques of Skoda, so you can't tell, on a battery  cell by cell, which one(s) has gone - something that a hydrometer would show easily. And, the after -market battery analysers such as C-Tek or Foxwell don't provide a cell-by-cell read out.

 

And the additional factor of having an oversize battery obscures the view of failure mode, unless you do an extended assessment, as I have done.

 

 

Nick

Edited 2 October, 2016 by Clunkclick