Battery problem

[Clunkclick]

That fissure in the space - time continum has opened up again.

 

This mornings experiment will be to connect an inverter to the apparently re-charged Varta  and discharge it heavily, possibly with some heating equipment, just to see how much the voltage drops.

 

Wish me luck !

 

N

[rum4mo]

Good, that might just mean that you will fit the new and newly full re-charged Bosch to your car!

[Clunkclick]

Anyway. Back to  round 2 of the "Spot the defective battery" competition.

 

For those with an academic and pseudo scientific bent, I thought I'd configure this in in terms of a G.C.E. General Science answer.

 

 

The Objective

 

To test both the new Bosch S5 and old (2.5 years) Varta D 15 in an attempt to obtain conclusive evidence as to their viability as vehicle batteries (Information obtained to date from battery analysers et al being either conflicting or inconclusive)

 

The "Test" Equipment

 

Item 1: 1 x NV - P1000 DC/AC Inverter, rated at 1000watts continuous, 2000watts peak @ mains voltage

 

Item 2: 1 x Pro-lec 9" inch rotary fan, rated at 14 watts, 220-240 Volts, 50Hz  AC

 

Item 3: 1 x Tefal dual slot toaster, rated at 1200 watts, 230 volts, 50Hz AC

 

The measuring equipment

 

Item 1: 1 x Foxwell BT - 100 battery analyser (Accurracy of some of its readings possibly compromised)

 

Item 2: 1 x Fluke 325 RMS clamp meter with leads

 

The "Recording equipment"

 

Item 1: 1 x Blackberry Curve 9330 (With 5Mp forward facing camera)

 

 

Methodology of the Test

 

To test, in turn, both batteries, starting with the Varta in heavy discharge mode, by applying a current draw to simulate that produced by a 1.4 16v Skoda Fabia  starter motor (Rated at 1100 watts) for periods ranging from 15-30 seconds. A Tefal 1200 watt toaster has been selected to simulate a 100 amp  DC draw current that a starter motor would produce (This 13 -year old toaster is regarded as expendable, being only subject to a semi-detached welfare provision, and has been factored into the test costs as a total write-off).

 

Battery analysis, using the Foxwell battery analyser and  ampage and voltage readings will be taken, using the Fluke Multimeter before, during and after the test on each battery. Values so obtained will be recorded on the Blackberry's camera.

 

Validation of set-up

 

The viability of the test methodology and set-up will be tested before the main test using the facility of the  Pro-lec fan.

 

 

Safety

 

The test was conducted in the kitchen.

 

The tester was issued with nitrile gloves, Amazon safety specs, was wearing protective clothing in the form of night attire and vulnerable surfaces were covered with surplus Amazon packaging.

 

 

Test Results

 

The methodology and set-up validation test was successfully concluded using the Fan and sanction given to proceed with the main test.

 

 

Main Test Results

 

Test 1 - Varta D15 (Rated 63 Amp hour, 610 EN Cold cranking amps)

 

Before:

 

Foxwell BA (Across battery terminals)

 

"Good battery"

Volts 13.14

561 EN (CCA) (Rated 610)

100% - State of Charge

77%   - State of Health

 

Fluke MM  (Across battery terminals)

 

13.1 Volts

 

During:

 

Fluke MM

 

100.90 amps DC (Clamp over +ve battery lead from battery to inverter)

 

11.60 volts DC (Leads applied across the battery terminals)

 

 

After:

 

Foxwell BA (Across battery terminals)

 

"Replace battery"

12.79 volts

319 EN (CCA) (Rated 610)

100% State of Charge

44% State of Health

 

Fluke MM (Across battery terminals)

 

12.8 volts

 

 

Test 2 - Bosch S5 (Rated 63 Amp hour, 610 EN Cold cranking amps)

 

Before:

 

Foxwell BA (Across battery terminals)

 

"Replace Battery"

Volts 12.97

465 EN (CCA) (Rated 610)

100% - State of Charge

64%   - State of Health

 

Fluke MM  (Across battery terminals)

 

13.0 Volts

 

 

During:

 

Fluke MM

 

103.90 amps DC (Clamp over +ve battery lead from battery to inverter)

 

12.7 volts DC (Leads applied across the battery terminals)

 

 

After:

 

Foxwell BA (Across battery terminals)

 

"Replace battery"

12.75 volts

449 EN (CCA) (Rated 610)

100% State of Charge

62% State of Health

 

Fluke MM (Across battery terminals)

 

12.7 volts

 

 

Findings

 

Both batteries had voltages above minimum levels both before, during and after the test.

 

Both batteries could supply 100 amps + during the test, although the Varta wasn't able to supply it for as long (10 seconds as against the Bosch 20-25b secs)

 

The  Varta state of health parameter on the Foxwell seemed to have been substantially diminished over the course of the test (77% down to 44%)  compared with the Bosch (64% down to 62%).

 

The Bosch battery produced anamolous readings on the Foxwell BA "Replace battery" - these have now normalised to "Good battery" an hour after the test.

 

The toaster survived the test.

 

Conclusions

 

**** knows.

 

Nothing to choose between them on voltage. On ampage, the Varta appears to have only a third of the Cold Cranking discharge capacity of the Bosch and if the Foxwell stats are to be believed then it would appear that the Varta battery Health was substantially effected by the test.

 

 

Phone's ringing . . . . Stockholm, you say . . . an award . . Too much and its only Saturday lunchtime.

 

 

Nick

Edited 8 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

On reflection, I'd say that the change in the battery health and cold cranking stats, particularly in the Varta, after one simulated use, are key to why the Varta is ending up totally discharged after one or two uses followed by a week at rest.

 

 

Nick

Edited 8 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Well, I for one, would like to see/hear how the new Bosch battery behaved after being fully recharged and fitted to that car and normal car usage, maybe after a month's use?

[sepulchrave]

Get your coat Nick, you've pulled...

[Clunkclick]

Going to leave the Bosch and the Varta on charge for another 24 hours or perhaps longer, as there seem to be an improvement in both batteries (Although I'm fully aware of the Varta's limitations under heavy discharge as determined above) I wondering if heavy discharge followed by a mains re-charge may be beneficial, a bit like giving a motor a hard run to de-glaze cylinder bores, when a vehicle has previously been used for pottering around town.

 

I only wish I had a 4Kw invrter and a couple of toasters a that would more accurately reflect the discharge test that the motor factors/garages do.

 

I've been substituting another more powerful Halfords charger (Suitable for sealed batteries) to charge both the Bosch and the Varta on an alternating basis, 12 hours on the Halfords charger, 1-6 hours rest and then 12 hours on the C-Tek.

 

In "Float" mode, I discovered, through measuring with the clamp on the Fluke, that the charge current  is somewhat higher on the Halfords charger than the C-Tek, i.e. 0.25 amps against .1 amps (or Less) and it appears that that when the chargers are swapped, there is a "Memory effect" i (Coming from the battery ?) and the C-Tek ampage charge rate increases to the rate previously delivered by the Halfords charger - I'm hoping that this effect will continue because it seems to be raising the "Battery Health" percentage on both batteries - 2% up over 24 hours. Previously, when on "Float" charge using the C-Tek only, both batteries had battery health percentages in the mid to high 70s. Interesting to see where this goes.

 

I also believe, I've undercovered the reason why the Varta was totally discharging so quickly when left at rest. When first applying the Halford's charger I noticed that the charge ampage was going up and down, over a limited range, on a second by second basis. One second it would be 0.7 amp and the next second it was 1.5 amp. and the buzz of the Halford's charger would alternate high - low frequency in syncrony when this occured (This effect didn't show when charging with the C-Tek) and it wasn't in evidence when the Halford's charger was used to charge  the Bosch battery. I concluded that there was a small short inside the Varta battery.

 

Over 24 hours this short in the Varta battery seems to have disappeared and the ampage being supplied on the +ve lead to the battery is rock steady, like the Bosch.

 

I  also witnessed the second by second ampage variation on discharge when the battery was installed in the car, but misinterpreted this as a fault with the car's equipment. So, I'm now coming round to the idea that this high frequency short, both on charge and discharge, may, on discharge, with the vehicle at rest, engine off, all electrical services off, doors locked have been fooling the vehicles electrical sensors into thinking that an electrical service was being used and intermittment waking up the convenience/comfort unit which then started to draw 0.4 amp instead of .14 amps of sleep mode.

 

Of course now the short appears to have gone away, re-installation of the Varta won't prove anything.

 

Current  off-charge readings on the Foxwell show that the Varta is in better condition than the Bosch:-

 

Varta

 

13.17 volts

571 EN CCA

100% state of charge

79% State of Health

 

Bosch

 

12.99 volts

558 EN CCA

100% State of Charge

77% State of Health

 

 

Nick

Edited 9 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

We want to see that new Bosch battery in that car for a month!

 

Why not, let this battery do the talking - or let that car discharge it?

[Clunkclick]

New battery in.

 

No problems starting or running - 45 mile round trip.

 

However,, battery drain is still there at rest (all electrical service off) -  400 milliamps for 10 minutes after electrical close down and then it reduces to 100 to 250 milliamps, jumping between the two on a second by second basis. Looks like an intermittent short.

 

Obviously, a drain of 250 milliamps would, if the car wasn't used,  expend the full capacity of the battery in 10 days.

 

Still getting the same one and only  VCDS error message as before:-

 

Address 01: Engine        Labels: 036-906-034-APE.lbl   Part No: 036 906 034 DF   Component:  MARELLI 4MV        5020     Coding: 00071   Shop #: WSC 25021     VCID: 59B3E0EDC338878A93-4B18   *****************   SKZ7Z0B1485705

 

1 Fault Found: 18043 - Powertrain Data Bus         P1635 - 35-00 - Missing Message from A/C Controller

 

Readiness: 1110 0101

 

And the heater temperature flap doesn't seem to be working now, stuck in the "Fresh air" position, so no hot air for the cabin. But the blower works on all speeds. Worst of all cases  of failure mode . . . . .for  the customer (Not for the spanner monkeys of course) . . . - well designed Skoda/VAG !!!!

 

Previously, almost since  the vehicle was new (2003), the flap had had intermittent operation and the following VCDS error message always  came up when I did a VCDS scan:-

 

  01596 - Motor for outside/recirculated air flap (V154)

    30-10 Open short to plus - intermitent

    41-10 Blocked or no voltage - intermitent

    29-10 Short to ground - intermittent

    28-10 Short to plus - intermitent 

  

 01271 - Positioning Motor for temperature flap (V68)

     29-10 short to ground - intermitent

 

This error message is no longer showing on the current scans.

 

I suppose these are linked with the battery drain and jumping drain ampage values.

 

I can do without the cabin heat but I need to stop the current drain, which I understand should be, even with Skoda's immobiliser and an after market alarm should be no more than 50 milliamps.

 

The candidates are the air flap motor, its controller board or the wiring loom.

 

So fuses F68 and F12 will be coming out tomorrow to see what effect that has on the drain.

 

If it is the motor or the control board are replacements available and how difficult is it to do ?

 

If that doesn't cure the drain then I may consider fitting a battery break switch - 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Richbrook-1000-01-Discarnect-Immobiliser-Battery/dp/B0019ULCPW/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476126232&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=richbrook+-+battery+break+switch

 

 

What beats me is that VAG can design an electrical system like this which is prone to this fault  (Heater blower problems are infamous) and no error message flashes up in the  instrument binnacle. Although this fault is  slow burn, cumulatively it is  a vehicle disabling fault. It should be given greater priority. If the "Convenience" unit needs to do anything, surely its preventing these set of circumstances.

 

So, there we go Microsoft, manufacturers of the toy operating system and Skoda, manufacturer of toy cars.

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 10 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Not good, no heater in winter will make life very miserable!

 

My Ibiza battery drain problem "progress" - well it has now proved to be consistant, or at least it drains all the time, went from fully charged to 12.02V in four days, not good, at least I've printed out what all the fuses cover, so time to walk the walk! After that if nothing obvious is found, back to SEAT to demand they take money from me to reflash the BCM operating software.

[sepulchrave]

 

Obviously, a drain of 250 milliamps would, if the car wasn't used,  expend the full capacity of the battery in 10 days.

 

 

Nope, your new 60 Ah battery almost certainly has a 10 hour rating, which means a 60A drain will take 10 hours to totally flatten it.

 

A 0.25A drain will take WAY longer than your crude maths would suggest, well over three months in fact. If only you'd done the homework I set for you on Battery University...

[Clunkclick]

Not good, no heater in winter will make life very miserable!

 

My Ibiza battery drain problem "progress" - well it has now proved to be consistant, or at least it drains all the time, went from fully charged to 12.02V in four days, not good, at least I've printed out what all the fuses cover, so time to walk the walk! After that if nothing obvious is found, back to SEAT to demand they take money from me to reflash the BCM operating software.

These are not impossible problem to solve, witness a  bloke in the US with a Passat who did his own YT video. The  outside air/recirculation flap servo motor (Buried in the dash) had failed and he simply disconnected  the flap actuating rod from the servo and set it by hand to whatever he wanted according to  season ! VW in the states wanted $1,000 to replace the servo (Cost $12.50 -25.00), which involved serious dismantling of the dash Perhaps I can sign-on to ERWIN tomorrow and find the relevant diagrams . . in fact I have already downloaded these some time ago. Now where did i put them.

 

In my case, it may be something as simple as the temperature sensor gone fut and giving false temperature readings to the relevant control module from which the EMU software picks up values to send  to the flap motor. If its picking up and sending the wrong values, I understand that should be evident when using VCDS to read the HVAC module.

 

In all the videos I've seen the flap motor makes a racket when it fails. Mine is silent. Apparently, when the temperature sensor fails it only affects the flap motor when the blower is on - I'll need to check out what happens with mine when the blower's off  later today, if the servo motor i still working I should be able to change the position of the outside air/recirculation flap. In actual fact the dealer replaced a temperature sensor for the aircon about 6 years ago (But then the error code reports in VCDS still showed an error for the recirculation flap - now it doesn't and it showing the powertrain error code for A/C srhaps the motor has now.

 

More important than that, I need decent (Official) confirmation on what is an acceptable maximum current drain for the Fabia Mk 1 at rest with  all electrical service off - given that Skoda "Customer Services" serve the customer in name only, perhaps i can get this info from ERWIN.

 

My feeling is that 250 milliamps is way to high and that, all installing a new battery has done is mask an error condition that will ultimately deplete and kill the new battery - there are countless reports of this occuring with Skoda battery drain issues on the web.

 

 

Nick

Edited 11 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Nope, your new 60 Ah battery almost certainly has a 10 hour rating, which means a 60A drain will take 10 hours to totally flatten it.

 

A 0.25A drain will take WAY longer than your crude maths would suggest, well over three months in fact. If only you'd done the homework I set for you on Battery University...

I'll take a look at that again. 

 

Nevertheles , my thinking is that a drain of 250 milliamps i.e a quarter of an amp is per se way too high. I'll take a look at ERWIN.

 

N

[sepulchrave]

I'll take a look at that again. 

 

Nevertheles , my thinking is that a drain of 250 milliamps i.e a quarter of an amp is per se way too high. I'll take a look at ERWIN.

 

N

 

Think of it another way...

 

12V x 0.25A = 3W, that really isn't very much and I strongly suspect your actual average drain will be less than half that. I assume you've checked that the glove box lamp is actually going out and the boot courtesy light as well...

[Breezy_Pete]

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/377587-technical-bulletin-about-parasitic-current-draw-measurement/

[Clunkclick]

If you've read my original posts on this thread . . . . . . everything was checked glove box, boot light, all the fuses were pulled and checked for integrity and position and found to be OK.

 

I'll try and source an official figure for "At rest" battery drain from either Erwin or "Customer Services"  (If I live that long with the latter).

 

If necessary, i'm going to do it all again, measuring and pulling concentrating on the circuits that either fully or partially by-pass the ignition switch and those that utilise X -Relay (18), so that's heater/blower, front wash pump, rear fog lights.

 

Amazing, all these things must have been "Thoroughly tested" in development and pre-production, a bit like the ol' Samsung Galaxy, which, of course, hasn't been rushed to market for Xmas, over-riding the concerns of the development engineer s, under pressure from marketeers. Fortunately for us, so far, Skoda/VAG Customer Service isn't obliged for the sake of its image to hand out tokens for skin grafts (That's despite VAG, particularly in the States, taking their pound of flesh). . . . Give it time.

 

 

Nick

 

 

[Clunkclick]

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/377587-technical-bulletin-about-parasitic-current-draw-measurement/

Cheers. Looks the business.

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Is it me or is everything that VAG does over-the-top engineered and complicated, with designed-in premature failure points which require  full component strip down to repair. ? Looking, last night, at the outside air flap motor replacement videos, it looks so unnecessary over complicated and over-engineered.

 

A far cry from the design and engineering excellence of the original Beetle.

 

Going back to my recent experience of replacing the electric window mechanism.  The YT videos showed that the American design enabled the offending component to be reached in 15 minutes. VAG design took 50 minutes.

 

Comments on the YT videos on the outside air flap motor issue indicate that back home in Germany, customers, particularly of the late 1990s and early 2000s model VAGs were so ****ed-off with poor function, reliability and serviceability of the electrical systems that VAG were getting their reputation seriously dissed.

 

And, apparently, its all attributable to cost saving programmes which put the sourcing of wiring looms and electrical components in Eastern Europe for the first time. Corporately, who does that in one step ?- introduce a radically more complicated electrical system based on EMUs, injection engines and chnge your electrical component suppliers an assemblers for untried entities ?

 

Truly, the last 30 years, we have seen kitten-wit capitalism at full effect.

 

Nick

Edited 11 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Clunkclick, that tale about the VW Passat recirc flap motor is an extreme case luckily, that flap motor, in a RHD Passat gets located at the far lefthand end of the inside of that car, ie the body and external linkage is only roughly 15mm from the inner skin of the car. So when you consider that you need a bit more space to get access to it and probably roughly 50mm to withdraw the unbolted motor assembly - it is definitely not possible to change without getting the complete moved/tilted a bit - or if the car is a bit older, get the near side wing off and cut a large access hole! In my experience of messing with a Passat recirc flap motor, I think that it and other models recirc flap motors have two linkages - or two flap functions, the fresh air/recirc one is easy to get access to and if necessary trash - the other one has a significant effect on the quantity of air being made available to you in the cabin, that one is hidden behind and out of reach while the dash is in place - I gave up on that and that car has now gone!

 

Flap motors usually make noises - yes, "hunting" if the positional feedback pot track is dirty, this can sometimes be called the "grandfather clock noise" - "TICK TOCK" ish maybe in your case, something else is wrong with that flap motor assembly, that is why you might find out more by looking at its response to you changing the temperature using VCDS.

 

Also, I'd think that that temperature changing flap motor will be a lot more accessible than any recirc flap motor, though still a job for patience, small long strong fingers and a creative approach to using small tools!

[Clunkclick]

Cheers. Looks the business.

 

Nick

Phaeton, trunk, hood . . . this is advice for the US.

 

Euh ? Flawed methodology ?

 

I just wonder how feasible is it, at stage 2 (Individual fuse value measurement)   to be able to access the fuse panel without having the driver's door slightly open, which in itself would "Wake-up" the EMU.

 

Even at stage 1, some cars with the "Hood" up may activate an alarm ?

 

And to measure the drop, the ignition needs to be on and the circuits live, so system  is already "Awake" before you start measuring.

 

Now, this is one area where they could have complicated the design to beneficial effect - by putting sensing contacts and wires on each fuse feeding heuristics type softawre in the EMU which would seek out anamolies in real-time.

 

Double Duh!

 

 Or, as I call it, Vorsprung duch *******s-up !

 

Nick

Edited 11 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

I have never tried this, but can you not just trip the driver's door latch and then lock up, as long as you don't have interior monitoring, or inhibit the volumetric monitoring bit of the alarm if you do, you should be okay to carry on checking the fuses. Maybe same for the bonnet lock if you need the car to be fully locked up for any of this.

 

My first attempt at chasing Ibiza battery drain last year, included leaving it unlocked in the garage for a week or so, the battery drained as it always had even when unlocked, so stupidly/lazily I'm guessing it is still the same!

Edited 11 October, 2016 by rum4mo

[Breezy_Pete]

The linked document tells you the maximum allowable overall parasitic current, does it not?

No use to you?

I thought that was exactly what you were trying to establish. My apologies.

[Clunkclick]

The linked document tells you the maximum allowable overall parasitic current, does it not?

No use to you?

I thought that was exactly what you were trying to establish. My apologies.

Very kind. Thank You.

 

The figures for max total system wide acceptable drain, in milliamps terms, are in line with what i understood to be the case from other sources 

 

However, I just wonder how the technician would follow this official advice, as far as Uk models with dashboard end mounted fuse boxes are concerned, should it be necessary to proceed to measurement across individual circuits/fuses. This would require that the doors are shut and the alarm activated and  that two hours have  elapsed before measurement of the millivolt drop across each fuse can take place. As you are aware, the main fuse box in the  UK Fab is positioned at the far right hand side of the dashboard and there is next to no clearance between the fuse box and the drivers door when the latter is shut. I would suggest that to test the fuses using the conventional multimeter probes would require the drivers door open. But this would effectively invalidate the test. And even if you use multimeter leads with fuse type spade connectors on the end and a in-line fuse holder in the leads (As I obtained from Maplin),  re-positioning those, with the driver's door closed would be problematic. I would assume that perhaps the fusebox in the US Skodas are located diffrently - Skoda don't sell Fabias state side.

 

Come  to that, even with the ignition off,  wouldn't re-positioning multimetre probes, of either type, on the fuse live wires "Wake-up" the system - there's no statement in the bulletin about the thresholds for that - all they say is use the VAG device or a Fluke 83 or similar.

 

Nevertheless, I'm game to give it a try. so that when I have a few spare nanoseconds, I'll give it a go.

 

MT

 

 

Nick

 

Nick

Edited 11 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Breezy_Pete]

I may have misunderstood, it's a while since I read it, but I thought it was only that initial overall discharge current that needed to be done with car all locked up and alarm set?

One still needs to be a little creative with long meter leads to do this, but I'm sure you can manage that; if you haven't already. I made something up with a spare negative battery clamp ISTR.

Not sure of the best approach with cabin fusebox if the door does indeed need to be shut. Will think about it.

[rum4mo]

On reflection, now I can see, maybe why the 2009 Ibiza came back from its "battery draining investigation" at SEAT main dealer, a couple of momths ago, with some very sad looking standard open ended, ie as fitted at factory fuses - the result of much probing?