Roger dodger.

 

Fingers' crossed that just relieving the pressure from the nut doesn't cause it to ping - I already had one of the other ones spontaneously crack two years ago,

 

 

N.

It should survive as it's the widest, highest current one.

As you've no doubt realised from your erWin research, the next one rightwards is (all of) the cabin electrics, which is probably the next one to try if the alternator is found to be innocent of draining.

It should survive as it's the widest, highest current one.

As you've no doubt realised from your erWin research, the next one rightwards is (all of) the cabin electrics, which is probably the next one to try if the alternator is found to be innocent of draining.

 No 11  (Air Conditioning) might also be relevant in view of the non-reporting of HVAC module 8 in my recent VCDS scans.

 

Doing the "Testing" this way is going to be long and drawn out.

 

I think I might, at first, just disconnect each battery lid lead in turn and, with the battery connected, bridge each circuit with  a multimeter and take an ampage reading. With everything switched off there shouldn't be anything more flowing, on any one circuit, than the 0.15 - 0.75 amps I have previously measured being discharged  at the battery -ve terminal. On the assumption that a constantly varying drain is not typical/normal, all i've got to look for is a reading that constantly jumps between two states.

 

 

I just hoping its not anything more substantial on the alternator than the rectifier module.  A quick web research shows that there are a huge number of suitable units/manufacturers to choose from at prices (New) from just over £100 -£400. Getting the right one and handing over the dosh could be be painful. Back in the '80's they were £50- 60 for the equivalent Golf.

 

Nick

Edited 1 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

...I think I might, at first, just disconnect each battery lid lead in turn and, with the battery connected, bridge each circuit with  a multimeter and take an ampage reading. ...

 

Good plan. That should narrow down rapidly where to focus your attention.

A brush pack including regulator and rectifier is about £20, I know because I replaced mine, the windings and bearings were fine and the alternator worked like new again.

PM. Re-installed re-charged battery with the following readings:-

 

13.53 volts

563 EN

100% SOC

77%  SOH

 

Disconnected the alternator lead from the battery lid and measured for V & A, at rest, ignition off. Got some very odd readings bridging the multimeter from the battery lid to the alternator lead. which, on the amps front started high and went low.  Volts were 12 ish. I decided not to take that idea any further with the other lines.

 

So, I've left the battery still connected and the alternator lead disconnected and will monitor what happens to the battery over the next couple of days with the car at rest.

 

Before I did this, I revisited the main fuse box in the cabin and, in two passes, with the ignition and all other services off,  measured the voltage on all the fuses in series and then, on second pass measured the voltage drop across each fuse (Parallel). 

 

The majority of circuits showed zero volts on both passes, except the following:-

 

Fuse 1   (5 amps) (Instrument cluster ESP), 12.1 volts (Series)  and zero volts (Parallel - voltage drop)

Fuse 3   (5 amps|) (Diagnostic power supply and air con) 10.8 volts and 0.004 volts.

Fuse 4  (10 amps)  (Courtesy light, glove box and boot lights) 8.3 volts and 0 volts

Fuse 17 (5 amps) (Petrol Engine Control Unit) 10.6 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 31 (10 amps) (Tailgate Central Locking motor) 8.6 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 39 (20 amp)  (Heated rear window) 8.6 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 40 (20 amps) (Horn) 8.6 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 41 (20 amps) (Windscreen wiper) 8.6 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 43 (20 amp) (Central Control Unit) 12.0 volts and zero volts

Fuse 44 (15 amp) (Direction indicators) 10.9 volts and zero volts

Fuse 45 (20 amps) (Audio system, navigation) 10.00 volts and zero volts

Fuse 46 (25 amps) (Electric windows) 6.1 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 49 (15 amps) (Central locking) 10.7 volts and zero volts.

Fuse 58 (25 amps) (Heater Blower) 6.2 volts and zero volts

 

Taking these results as they come, it would appear only the Diagnostic + aircon has any ampage flowing  across out of all the fuses i.e. 24 milliamps, per the VAG look-up table  entry for 4 millivolts ! Hardly the 140-350 milliamp drain I have been measuring at the battery -ve terminal. To be honest, because I was using standard sized probes, I a little sceptical on the "Voltage drop" measurements, particularly on the standard sized fuses. I've got some needle nose probes on order, and, when they arrive, I'll redo the voltage drop measurements.

 

I had another go at measuring the drain at the - ve battery terminal, this time using leads  to bridge between  the  disconnected negative terminal connector  and the -ve terminal battery post, rather than the clamp. Showed zero drain ?x1X???.

 

I'm inclined to  rely  now exclusively on "Output" measures, such as the current test of the any drain to the alternator.

 

The next stage, doesn't bare thinking about, namely taking various bits of the dash off and using the testing algorhythms in Erwin.

 

 

Nick

Edited 1 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

It's algorithm, I'm sorry but a repeated spelling mistake from someone so literate just jumps off the screen and pokes me in the eye. I did let it pass the first time.

A bit hissy. You're not building-up to have one are ? A fit, that is.

 

The Dr recommends:  . . . . ., Pink pills and a lie down in a darkened room tout de suite.

 

N.

So there you are, I did think that making your algos rhythmic might be at the heart of some of these measurement issues?

 

Joking aside, the late 2009 Ibiza with the battery drain problem, has been sleeping with its earth lead disconnected - and after 8 days and with lowering temperatures, its battery voltage is 12.40V - so as yet no signs of any big internal discharging going on, but I have time on my side (maybe) and will leave it until 14 days have passed.

 

Meanwhile, I've ordered a Haynes workshop manual for wife's new Polo, it does not fully cover that car but lots of stuff will be "same as" and the late 2009 Ibiza wiring should be very similar, so it will cover a bit of this and a bit of that across these two cars - or maybe that is another of my delaying tactics!

As you know, I'm testing it on a three day cycle, as that has been highly significant as regards loss of charge.

 

The fully charged battery was installed on Tuesday with readings of :-

 

13.27v

576 EN cranking amps

100% state of charge 

79% state of health

 

And its been sitting in the car park for three days doing nothing, with the alternator lead disconnected. There was one night when the outside temperature went down to 2 C. The rest of the time its been hovering around 8-9 C

 

And the readings @ 16:30 today, shortly before i removed it again for in-house recharge were:-

 

12.28 volts

545 EN

60% state of charge

75% state of health

 

So its lost 40% of it charge in 3 days with the alternator cable disconnected i.e. about 25.2 amp hours of the rated 63 amp hour capacity. Over 72 hours that's an average of  0.35 amps per hour. That's within the range of loss (0.15 -0.45) that I have been measuring at the -ve battery terminal with the Fluke clamp meter.

 

My initial conclusion would be that, the drain rate hasn't been effected by the disconnection of the alternator cable. So perhaps the alternator regulator is OK.

 

Plan is to re-charge the battery and then install it with the next highest ampage connection in the battery lid disconnected as well i.e.the interior circuits @ 110A and then leave it for another 3 days. The interior circuits would cover the alarm (Piggy-backed on the courtesy light circuit ?) and the console controls and temperature flap motor (One of which, or both I know have failed, as there's no dashboard heat).

 

Battery should be a little warmed-up now, so i'll stick it on charge.

 

Nick

Edited 4 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

Clunkclick, if you are out and about, I've just proved that my "excessive battery drain" is coming from on, or due to the "locking system" in the late 2009 Ibza SC - removing that fuse stops the excessive drain. So now it is down to working out and/or examining as much of that area of bits as possible - so I guess that means "locking system ECU(if that exists on its own in that car)" + "driver's door lock assembly" + "passenger's door lock assembly" + "rear hatch lock assembly" + all the interconnecting wiring - if weather permits!

 

As a runabout, I could live with that car as it is and just remember to manually lock both front doors after getting out - trouble comes when wifie might feel the need to make use of the boot space!   Its user is coming home for Christmas on 19th December so as long as I have not got it in bits around then things are okay!

I haven't  been able  to do anything more, over the last two weeks, as I'm recovering from the Hernia op I had in early November - and the restriction on lifting and doing things in awkward locations applies to the middle of December. So, pro temp, I've been taking it on short runs every three days to keep the battery charged Seems to do the trick.

 

Point noted on door mechanism. From my reading of previous threads on that topic, the problem there can be down to corroded contacts inside the door and the "Fully closed" position never being achieved, so that the mechanism keep on trying o close, even when the car is a rest. This action keeps the convenience unit permanently awake - hence the drain.

 

Unless the weather improves, I don't feel inclined, to be outside doing anything at the moment, so it will probably get left for the dealer to remedy at the annual service.in February.

 

The heater function has also packed-up completely now. Further, VCDS is no longer reporting the HVAC module on scans.  And I'm getting constant Engine management light in the instrument binnacle (But I'm hoping that is just the usual randomness consequent on removal/replacement of the battery). Overall, looks like the scope of the problem is widening - electrical control unit fault ? Fingers crossed that it will keep going to February.

 

Anyway, its just another electrical problem probably best left to the dealer. And, i have noticed that on opening the door with the remote, I'm now getting some short-lived electrical charging noise (Similar to the pressurisation of the power steering pump) immediately after the key-fob is pushed.

 

 

N.

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

Hernia op, hum, I've been putting that off for too long - maybe some time soon, they will need to order in a large extra strong bit of mesh to keep things where they should be!

 

One thing that might be handy, if your car's drain is down to a similar problem, why don't you just remove the central locking fuse and lock it up manually?  That works very well with the late 2009 Ibiza - though using it with that out means you can't get into the boot which is okay if you are using the car by yourself.

 

Maybe last test I have just carried out - really for my own interest was, leaving the car in the garage so not locking it - well that did not go too well, still getting large battery drain.

 

Time for me to man up and get using erWin and find out where I can disconnect that function to the driver's door etc - and hope for dry not too cold weather when I start taking trim panels off!

 

Edit:- what seems to be different between the 6J Ibiza and either the 9N Polo or 6C Polo is, water is allowed to enter the doors - when you open the doors, water floods out of the door lower frame drain hole!  A lot of 6J Ibiza owners have noticed this - it is a "feature" not a "fault"!!

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by rum4mo

If the fault with the doors is anything like the Fabia, then it is a design fault,  in that whilst there is provision for water which gets past the window rubber  to fall out of the drain holes in the bottom of the door and whilst their is a damp roof membrane to protect the inner door components from the passage of water, the ****s designed-in a u-section horizontal rail half-way down the vertical run of the door which has some function as regards the window glass and this collects incoming water  (Presumably this was not designed-in) and, once sufficient has accumulated enables it to breach the plastic vapour barrier,  ruining anything in its way. Usually, the first sign that this is happening in the Skodas is that you find that the cabin carpets get wet. There is a Skoda approved fix for this, using sealant, which the dealer can apply.

 

Whilst, this provides a cosemetic fix which initially satisfies the customer, It doesn't remove the problem, as far as the internal leccy-based components, which continue to fester over the years.

 

Remember that this is all courtesy of the VAG group,  across  marketing brands (Which, as we all have been brainwashed to understand, must not be damaged at pain of), and implemented by professional engineers and designers. What's more its been known about since the 1990s, as far as the Polos are concerned, and has been running in this state, unaddressed by production line modifications for the last 20 years. That's what you call an impressive attitude to neglect. Not quite in that other dysfunctional organisation, BT,  class, but certainly getting there. There can't be any lateral communication across these organisations, only "Stove-piped".

 

Aside: Just reading a book about the raising of the Kursk, carried out by the Dutch firms Mamoet and Smit (salvage). You wouldn't believe the level of planning, production, logistics and sheer output delivery that went into that task and they got the solution 100%  right, first time round in execution and got gongs from the Ruskis to prove it.

 

Makes VAG and BT look like the amateurs they are. Good read - comes with a DVD.

 

 

N

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

"....and whilst their is a damp roof membrane to protect the inner door components from the passage of water...."

 

 

 

"....once sufficient has accumulated enables it to breach the plastic vapour barrier...."

 

 

There are no damp proof membranes or plastic vapour barriers on Mk1 Fabia doors. The metal door ancillary carriers and their edge seals are the only barrier.

 

The electrical components inside the door (door lock unit) are sealed in order to cope with the inevitable water ingress past the outer window scraper seal which drains out the door bottom drain holes. The window motor is mounted on the outside of the door carrier behind the door card, so does not get wet at all.

 

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by TMB

And, I understand that the mild steel carrier is only pop-rivetted round the edges i.e. it has a water permeable  seam - so that's where the dealer-fix sealant undoubtedly goes.

 

And as, we can see from the photos, the carrier is splattered with holes (Some rubber grommeted) for cable and wire ports for the window and lock mechanisms.So, plenty of portals for water entry - you understand that, to the best of my knowledge, only the dealer has removed the door cards from my vehicle.

 

I take it that,  on the later Mks,   a polythene vapour barrier has been substituted for the metal carrier saving production costs.

 

All that said, my 1981 Base model Golf "N" never had leaky windows, premature wearing Anti-Roll Bar bushes or Front console bushes, clogging Exhaust Gas Re-circulation valves, prematurely failing heating, air conditioning system and window regulator components, excessive engine oil consumption, prematurely wearing overhead valve  and gearbox mechanisms. Progress !

 

And, what's the betting that there's a stack of rally drivers, or even Le Mans saloon racers, who would swear on a similar stack of bibles regarding the reliability and endurance of current models.

 

Could Tata do any worse ?

 

N

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

And, I understand that the mild steel carrier is only pop-rivetted round the edges i.e. it has a water permeable  seam - so that's where the dealer-fix sealant undoubtedly goes.

 

 

Yes, and some earlier models have bolted carriers (up to about 2003 I think).

 

And as, we can see from the photos, the carrier is splattered with holes (Some rubber grommeted) for cable and wire ports for the window and lock mechanisms.So, plenty of portals for water entry - you understand that, to the best of my knowledge, only the dealer has removed the door cards from my vehicle.

 

 

 

All the holes are filled when it's all assembled.

 

 

I take it that,  on the later Mks,   a polythene vapour barrier has been substituted for the metal carrier saving production costs.

 

 

MK2 doors are like this, not sure about later ones....

 

 

 

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by TMB

Here's a novel idea for the marketeers.

 

Why don't they adjust the spec for these cars so that the bodywork and running components expire at the same time and, more importantly, create three gradations of specification, priced accordingly: 7.5 year car,  10 year car and 15 year car. Then the consumer would have a straight foward choice and would know what was coming his way, without all the duplicity and double dealing. ?

 

Is that as good an idea as putting the nuts on the outside of chocolate bars ?

 

Getting back on topic, I notice, from the numerous You tube videos that the heating and recic flap motors are made by Bosch . . . . 

 

 

N.

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

All I can say, is that you'd have thought that a special effort would have been made with saloons (Such as mine), that are destined for the fleet market,  to eliminate some of the faults. 

 

Problems with the electrical connections in the doors are not limited to corrosion, Its reported that some of the wire ends plugged into switches and junctions have fatigue failed, producing very diffcult to resolve failure modes.

 

By the look of it, all the changes that have been made to door design simply have been introduced to reduce costs of production, not to address customer issues . . nice ! Unless there has been corresponding price hold or reversal on manufacturers prices, these savings  all goto profit.

 

 

N

Edited 30 November, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

Checked the battery this evening, as the car had last been used on Monday evening (36 mile run) and we've had a couple of nights of -2 C since then.

 

Foxwell showed the following (outside temperature now  7C):-

 

11.66 Volts i.e. totally discharged.

257 EN cranking amps (Rated 610EN when fully charged).

State of charge 0%, State of Health 36%.

 

So that was removed and trollied to the house for a re-charge on the C-Tek.

 

Before doing so, I took a reading on the multimeter from the negative terminal battery wire and it showed, with all services off, door closed and locked, alarm set  parasitic drain of 0.47 amp. 

 

I also took a vcds scan (Afetr DTC'ing the random error codes generated on the occasion of the last battery installation), just to see if anything had changed - answer No:-

 

Address 01: Engine Labels: 036-906-034-APE.lbl

Part No: 036 906 034 DF

Component: MARELLI 4MV 5020

Coding: 00071

Shop #: WSC 25021

VCID: 59B3E0EDC338878AEE-4B18

TMBDD46Y02357**** SKZ7Z0B148****

 

1 Fault Found:

18043 - Powertrain Data Bus

P1635 - 35-00 - Missing Message from A/C Controller

Readiness: 1110 0101

 

So, it looks as if it may be this component that is associated with the drain - I presume that if it was the door locks, as suggested above, that I would have got a VCDS error code.

 

Also, i note that modules 08 (HVAC ?), 25,37 55, 56 and 76 although on the scanning list didn't report.

 

I've read that with the VW Golf, the alternator excitor wire can get melted onto the exhaust ports/part of the chassis thus shorting it out. I presume this wouldn't show as incorrectly actuating/non-actuating warning lights in the instrument binnacle and might not show s an error code as it is not within a component and therefore possibly outside the scope of the testing software.

 

Anyone have experience of this happening on the Fabia ? 

 

N

Edited 2 December, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

The HVAC module could be eliminated from your list of suspects by removing any fuses that feed it, I'd think? I can look up which ones are relevant if you like? (3 & 12 should do it).

Edited 2 December, 20169 yr by Wino

Haynes says that air conditioning is Fuse F3 (5A)  and that Fresh/recirculated air flap is & air conditioning is on F12 (5A)

 

I'll try pulling those once the battery is re-charged.

 

Although I think i already tried do that about a month ago, and I recall it had no effect on the drain.

 

If no joy there, I'll try Link fuse no 11  (5A) in the battery lid, Haynes says that's exclusively allocated to the Air Conditioning.

 

Pestilencial thing, its doing my head in.

 

 

N.

 

 

 

 

That (no. 11 in batt box) one is a permanent 12V for the radiator fan control module, on your car. No harm in checking that that isn't misbehaving though.

BTW, the alternator exciter wire has no voltage on it except when ignition is on or engine running, to the best of my knowledge.

Edited 3 December, 20169 yr by Wino

Well, just seeing as I'm still in the dark about my battery drain issue with the late 2009 Ibiza:- having thought that I had worked out all these issues stemmed from the central locking system, I ran one final check by parking the car unlocked in the garage, that showed that there was still. or now a big drain going on now even with the central locking system fuse removed - not handy!

Took the car for a 30 miles run to recharge the battery and maybe do other things, the doing other things failed to materialise due to busy Christmas shoppers, so I drove back home, parked the car on the driveway, remove central locking system fuse, then immediately checked the battery drain, it was 0.11amps. I waited 1.0 hour, checked battery drain, it was still 0.11amps, waited another 0.5 hour still 0.11amps!  Removed all the remaining "in car" fuses that are live when the door is opened or always - drain was 0.06amp, waited 1.5 hours, drain was still 0.06amp!  Then I removed the heavy red lead which feeds all the "controlled in car consumers" battery drain now 0.00amps.

So, sod that, now it is back to:- a misbehaving module generating noise/disturbance on the CAN BUS line(s) and keeping the on board power controller awake, or a faulty on board power controller, or crap management software in the on board power controller - this last one though, in my mind, mean that I should have always got the same results wrt to drain, which I have not so far.  Now I don't think that I can have much luck monitoring the CAN BUS line(s) for activity, unless VAG SCOPE allows you to check CAN BUS line(s), and there are no proper faults being logged anywhere on that car - with the exception of engine coolant temperature sensor once in a blue moon (new sensor and seal and clip in glove box!) - any logged faults would be due to me removing fuses and have been cleared.  No possible chance that it could be caused by an engine coolant sensor giving the odd "stupid" value is there? (scraping the bottom of the barrel now I think!)

I'm still a bit concerned, but as yet have not been able to get a reasonable answer from a SEAT dealer, on the issue of what the reasons were for the need for VAG, or at least SEAT need to revise and issue a patch for the BCM management software on 2008>2009 6J Ibiza SCs - if it was due to a complete mess up that left the BCM monitoring activity on what should be "inert" areas of the staionary and locked up car, then that engine coolant sensor giving out the odd duff reading could be seen as relevant activity on the CAN BUS line(s) and wakening up the BCM and so draining the battery, it is just the veil of lack of knowledge/commitment that stops the flow of facts from SEAT etc agents out to users that could nip that in the bud. Certainly the BCM fitted to that car was evolved up a "letter" or so, though maybe for other reasons.

 

Edit:- either way, that new engine coolant temperature sensor needs to move out of the glove box and into the engine soon!

Edited 4 December, 20169 yr by rum4mo