EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[moley]

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

"Make a proper, structured "Divorce" payment undertaking or forget trade talks in December 17 !!

Have the EU actually put forward a figure for the 'divorce settlement' ?

[lol-lol]

8 hours ago, moley said:

Have the EU actually put forward a figure for the 'divorce settlement' ?

 

UK leaving the EU so UK must put up the proposal for the EU to consider.

 

UK must pay for all the monies it agreed to pay in the last EU budget and outstanding pension funding and issues like what timescales the UK would like ie all up front or drip dip over the length the debt is owed.

 

No British pounds either I suspect wil be demanded, as the GBP has dropped so much and may drop a lot further with the UK failing to have enough progress on a trade deal driving it down further, so in Euros, I would have thought, will be required.

 

EU wants the full details of the UK plan to meet its obligations and then the EU consider and and respond with any short-comings in the proposal.  

 

Same for Irish Land Border and EU citizens residing in  Britain.

 

[@Lee]

Basically it's a complete and utter cluster****, the tories are self combusting and if anyone thinks voting for Brexit  patriotic act they're deluded.

I'm still waiting for some proven benefits of leaving............
 

[CWARD]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

UK leaving the EU so UK must put up the proposal for the EU to consider.

 

UK must pay for all the monies it agreed to pay in the last EU budget and outstanding pension funding and issues like what timescales the UK would like ie all up front or drip dip over the length the debt is owed.

 

No British pounds either I suspect wil be demanded, as the GBP has dropped so much and may drop a lot further with the UK failing to have enough progress on a trade deal driving it down further, so in Euros, I would have thought, will be required.

 

EU wants the full details of the UK plan to meet its obligations and then the EU consider and and respond with any short-comings in the proposal.  

 

Same for Irish Land Border and EU citizens residing in  Britain.

 

 

Only because I can’t be bothered to type it again

Where in the EU legislation is it written what a state must pay a settlement figure when leaving the EU? 

Please link to the actual legislation as I had done in my link, not someone’s interpretation of it. If it is contractual then there will be the calculation to arrive at the settlement figure. 

Edited 11 November, 2017 by CWARD

[moley]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

UK leaving the EU so UK must put up the proposal for the EU to consider.

 

UK must pay for all the monies it agreed to pay in the last EU budget and outstanding pension funding and issues like what timescales the UK would like ie all up front or drip dip over the length the debt is owed.

I couldn't find anything in article 50 stating that a member state leaving has to guess how much the EU think they might owe. 

Quote

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

 

[lol-lol]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

What is in Article 50 is irrelevant.

The EU has said that if the Divorce bill issue is not sorted it will not move on to trade talks.

The EU trade with the UK is only 6% of its trade.  

The UK Trade with the EU is 44% of its trade.

Large EU businesses, German car makers particularly, have said the integrity of the EU is more important than a trade deal with the UK.

 

Play chicken with the EU and we will see who blinks first, as I said above, the percentage of the trade the UK has with the EU is seven times greater than the reverse.  The EU does not have to do a deal, it can see March the 30th 2019 come, impose the EU External Tariff on goods coming from the UK, hold RoRo traffic coming from Dover, Portsmouth, Plymouth etc or just tell it not to unload until it has the proper customs entries submitted. Simples. 

 

Edited 12 November, 2017 by lol-lol

[moley]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

What is in Article 50 is irrelevant.

Was article 50 part of the Lisbon treaty? or are you saying that the EU can make up the rules as it goes along.

It seems absurd to me that when negotiating the UK leaving the EU that the EU does not state the amount that they think the UK owes and how they have arrived at that figure. The current economic cycle ends in 2020, so how far into the future does the EU want the UK to pay?

It is important that a sensible deal is made for all parties involved, but all the EU seem to want is to squeeze as much cash out of the UK to cover the loss of income over the coming years. I suppose it would help cover some of the 150 + Bn euros that has been lent to Greece. 

 

Of course the German car industry doesn't care about exporting cars to the UK.

Quote

Almost one in three cars, or 810,000 cars sold in Britain, come from Germany, making the British island the biggest export destination for German car producers. It is around a fifth of the total number the industry exports worldwide, according to the German car association, VDA. Britain reached a new market high of 2.6 million car registrations in 2015 

 

[CWARD]

Everything is relevant. If we have no legal commitment to pay then it comes down to a goodwill payment or extortion.  Either way you’d be a complete idiot to pay for something having no idea what you’ll receive. If this is the kind of bargaining you do then I would be surprised as you don’t seem to be that stupid. 

Back to my question please provide links showing the legislation that says a member state must pay to exit the EU or any other that says how much it would pay to able to trade in the EU such as Norway and Switzerland. 

Please don’t say it is like a divorce settlement as that is stupid too. The assets of that marriage would be split and being a member from the start that would be in the UK interest. 

 

[@Lee]

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_5_QBRC9ARIsADVww15FwygGu3KALveEjTp-dwnAOIRvcQoijMxpBHa_Ft1Pu4TJuy0ZQHkaAmmWEALw_wcB

[CWARD]

21 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_5_QBRC9ARIsADVww15FwygGu3KALveEjTp-dwnAOIRvcQoijMxpBHa_Ft1Pu4TJuy0ZQHkaAmmWEALw_wcB

 

No links to actual legislation then! From your own link

 

Do we get anything in return?

The divorce bill could be offset partly by the UK’s share of EU assets, rebates and budget receipts. Some could be immediate deductions from the bill, while others could be longer-term payments over the next decade or more. Potential issues are:

• Budget receipts - money that the UK would have got from the EU Budget
• Rebate credits - repayment of outstanding credits from earlier contributions
• Asset shares - this is likely to be the most contentious, with arguments about whether the UK is entitled to shares of the value of buildings and a share of the capital of the European Investment Bank (EIB).The Commission's methodology outlines that the UK's paid-in capital to the EIB will be returned, but only after the EIB's loan book is balanced. 

Could we walk away without paying a Brexit ‘divorce bill’?

The Lords’ EU Financial Affairs Committee reports that the “strictly legal position of the UK on this issue appears to be strong”. If negotiators fail to agree on a political financial settlement, it could become a legal case in the International Court of Justice or the Permanent Court of Arbitration, both located in The Hague. The result of such a court case would be hard to predict. However there have been suggestions that this international arbitration solution would be preferable to a political settlement. 

 

I'll leave you with this

 

 

[moley]

A message to Barnier.

 

 

[lol-lol]

Maybe the EU will let the UK still use some of the office in Brussels/Strasbourg if the UK pays its dues.

The UK voted on many projects, some which are not due for completion until 2026

ie https://ec.europa.eu/inea/en/connecting-europe-facility/cef-transport/projects-by-country/multi-country/2014-eu-tm-0190-w

 

A trade deal with the EU is entirely discretionary at the choice of the EU, the Japan-EU deal may well take priority in time over starting with an EU-UK deal which normally take years to complete.

 

As to German car makers, the will expect to still sell considerable numbers of cars to the UK even with the 10% car duty in place. There are plenty of ways to mitigate that 10%, ie continue to move some production of the cheap models to places like Eastern Europe, Spain and even outside the EU for places like Mexico and South Africa.  Imagine they will stuff a good number of cars in to stock before the March 19 deadline too.  

 

 

German industry to UK: We won’t undermine single market over Brexit

Protecting the EU more important that keeping Britain close, lobby groups said.

 

By JOSHUA POSANER      7/9/17, 10:49 AM CET

 

Updated 7/9/17, 10:54 AM CET

 

Germany’s leading industry representatives have warned they will not lobby for preferential access to the single market for the U.K. post-Brexit.    Leading Brexiteers have argued that German Chancellor Angela Merkel will ultimately engineer a compromise on Brexit under pressure from German car-makers and manufacturers worried about barriers to the U.K. market once its leaves the EU.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-industry-to-uk-we-wont-undermine-single-market-over-brexit/ 

 

But German industrialists have reiterated that retaining the integrity of the single market is their goal. “Defending the single market, a key European project, must be the priority for the European Union,” Dieter Kempf, president of the German Federation of Industries lobby group which represents around 100,000 companies, told the Observer.

   

[CWARD]

26 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Maybe the EU will let the UK still use some of the office in Brussels/Strasbourg if the UK pays its dues.

The UK voted on many projects, some which are not due for completion until 2026

ie https://ec.europa.eu/inea/en/connecting-europe-facility/cef-transport/projects-by-country/multi-country/2014-eu-tm-0190-w

 

A trade deal with the EU is entirely discretionary at the choice of the EU, the Japan-EU deal may well take priority in time over starting with an EU-UK deal which normally take years to complete.

 

As to German car makers, the will expect to still sell considerable numbers of cars to the UK even with the 10% car duty in place. There are plenty of ways to mitigate that 10%, ie continue to move some production of the cheap models to places like Eastern Europe, Spain and even outside the EU for places like Mexico and South Africa.  Imagine they will stuff a good number of cars in to stock before the March 19 deadline too.  

 

 

German industry to UK: We won’t undermine single market over Brexit

Protecting the EU more important that keeping Britain close, lobby groups said.

 

By JOSHUA POSANER      7/9/17, 10:49 AM CET

 

Updated 7/9/17, 10:54 AM CET

 

Germany’s leading industry representatives have warned they will not lobby for preferential access to the single market for the U.K. post-Brexit.    Leading Brexiteers have argued that German Chancellor Angela Merkel will ultimately engineer a compromise on Brexit under pressure from German car-makers and manufacturers worried about barriers to the U.K. market once its leaves the EU.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-industry-to-uk-we-wont-undermine-single-market-over-brexit/ 

 

But German industrialists have reiterated that retaining the integrity of the single market is their goal. “Defending the single market, a key European project, must be the priority for the European Union,” Dieter Kempf, president of the German Federation of Industries lobby group which represents around 100,000 companies, told the Observer.

   

 

I’ll take that as a no, you can’t find the legislation. 

[@Lee]

31 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

I’ll take that as a no, you can’t find the legislation. 

Why are you bent on seeing some legislation?
Why can't you just accept that the UK signed up to projects and is liable to settle its dues?

[CWARD]

Why should we accept any value of projects that we have may have no access to?

There is nothing in the EU legislation stating that we have to pay anything for these projects.  Under international law there would be a liability but EU legislation trumps this and as such isn’t liable to anything as no agreements have been signed. Again prove me wrong and provide a link to the agreement stating we must pay for these projects. 

Would you agree to pay up to a £100bn, including the £40bn liabilities contingency,  just to talk about trade with no guarantees of a fair outcome for something you gave no legal obligation to do so?

 

 

[@Lee]

Look, the UK's made a commitment to honour its debts.
What do you think your reputation would look like if you  pished all over the golf club and said you're leaving and sod your bar tab?
We're paying it so get over it, snowflake  

[gadgetman]

Including Farage's redundancy package 

https://news.sky.com/story/british-meps-in-line-for-83646m-golden-goodbye-when-uk-leaves-eu-11123258

[CWARD]

Bar tab would be for items already consumed otherwise the bar would be owing you money.  Not your best analogy. 

The UK has offered a goodwill payment and to continue its payments until it leaves. 

[@Lee]

3 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

Including Farage's redundancy package 

https://news.sky.com/story/british-meps-in-line-for-83646m-golden-goodbye-when-uk-leaves-eu-11123258

No idea why he's entitled to that or his pension. He never turned up did he?
Is he still being investigated by the EU over his financial affairs?

[@Lee]

''The rottenness in the lies you’ve been served are now exposed.
The Leave billionaires - and increasingly evident now, the Russians - donated millions into a campaign to detach the UK from the EU for their own financial and political benefits, supported by thousands of Leave.EU and Russian automated bots and troll farms which targeted social media users with misinformation and lies.
The Leave millionaire politicians unscrupulously peddled lie after lie to the Leave voters. £350m back. Immigration is bad. We don’t have control of borders. We have lost sovereignty. The EU is falling apart. Turkey is joining. We have to join an EU army. Leaving is easy with the same exact benefits. German car producers will ensure we get a good deal. We will get trade deals by 2019. The EU need us more than we need them. We don’t have to pay the EU anything.
Every lie is now proven wrong. Every single one.
The ultra-rich owned right wing and tabloid press spewed out drivel and falsehoods to the ignorant Leave voters. The Telegraph - owned by the tax-haven Channel Islands resident Barclay brothers. The Daily Mail - Bermuda tax-haven registered and owned by the non-domicile Viscount Rothermere. The Sun - foreign-owned by Murdoch with his tax-dodging 62 subsidiaries in the British Virgin Islands, 33 in the Caymans and 15 in Mauritius. The Daily Express - owned by the billionaire Richard Desmond and registered in the tax havens of Luxembourg and the Channel Islands.
A collection of billionaires and millionaires with a single aim. To protect their tax avoidance in their tax havens. The donors of Brexit. The politicians of Brexit. The newspapers of Brexit.
Why aiming at the EU? The EU was a minor issue in British politics outside a small clique of ‘******s’ in the Tory party until the last few years.
It’s simple. The EU took aim at tax avoidance and tax evasion in 2013. They wanted to target tax avoidance in offshore tax havens in 2015.
They became a threat to the tax avoidance of the billionaires and millionaires.
A month later the Tory party announced we would have an EU referendum to leave. Not requested by the public, but now supported by a tax-avoiding tabloid press in overdrive.
‘We’ve lost sovereignty to the EU’. ‘EU immigrants destroy our jobs, houses, NHS and schools’. ‘We need to control our borders’.
Their ignorant reader base were fooled and believed the lies. The aftermath is the biggest political chaos in post-war Britain.
We never lost sovereignty. The Government even said in its Brexit White Paper that ‘we never lost sovereignty’. We have agreed to 95% of EU laws, we have abstained on 3% and only voted against 2%. We have the same sovereignty as all modern states have.
We can control immigration. We are out of Schengen which means we can check and deny entry at our airports and ports. We can use EC/2004/38, an EU directive that permits us to send back every EU citizen without a job, funds or comprehensive health care after only 3 months. We have control.
We have a net economic benefit from immigration. The EU immigrants will each year pay several billions more in tax than they take out in public benefits. The British-born population is net negative and so is non-EU immigration. EU immigration is effectively subsidising public services for the native population in addition to fuelling the economy with much needed intellectual and resource capital.
Do facts matter to the billionaires and millionaires in business, politics and the tabloid media needing Brexit to protect their hidden fortunes from EU scrutiny?
No. Their tabloid attack dogs have gone fascist. If you question the benefit of Brexit you become a ‘Traitor’, ‘Saboteur’, ‘Enemy’ and ‘Citizen of Nowhere’.
As the lies are exposed, the economic damage is clear and their argument is lost, their vitriol become a crescendo.
The vitriol applies to our judges, parliamentarians, celebrities, business leaders and every day citizens. Speak against Brexit and you are treacherous to ‘the will of the people’.
This is simply wrong. The ‘will of the people’ was 37% of eligible voters or 26% of the population on a given day in an advisory referendum. Democracies can and do change their minds. It’s part of the definition of being one.
Why is this vitriol so menacing and desperate?
Again, it simple. It’s about protection of money and wealth. It’s about securing access to tax havens, threatened by an EU Tax Avoidance Directive crackdown going live in 2019.
Our Article 50 notification to Leave on 29 March 2019 was not coincidental.
This is the true ‘control’ and ‘sovereignty’ the tax-avoiding Leave billionaires and millionaires really wanted. It wasn’t for you. It wasn’t for Parliament.
It was for themselves.
With an estimated £300 billion of UK taxpayers money hidden away in offshore tax havens, created by the same billionaires and millionaires, the tricks and lies we were given are clear.
They said we had to be ‘anti-establishment’ and against the ‘elites’. They meant their political opponents and the EU whilst they denied us the tax revenues needed for our housing, healthcare, education, pensions, social care and policing.
They said austerity was needed to correct our growing deficit and large debt - caused in part by their own tax avoidance equivalent to around 15% of our GDP. They cut public services, security, schools, NHS and social care whilst their own tax avoidance enrichment was systemic.
Punish the less well off. Protect the wealthy. Blame the punishment on the immigrants and the welfare seekers.
Scrap the 50p tax rate for millionaires. Drive corporation tax to its lowest level. Keep off shore tax avoidance open.
Cut the benefits for the disabled. Stop building houses. Invest less per capita for education and healthcare. Take police officers off the street.
Blame tax-paying Polish builders and Latvian fruit pickers who haven’t got a vote.
Just like austerity, Brexit is a disguise for control of tax avoidance.
We can be fooled once and it’s no shame. Be fooled twice and the joke is now on you.''

Author unknown.

[moley]

54 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Look, the UK's made a commitment to honour its debts.
What do you think your reputation would look like if you  pished all over the golf club and said you're leaving and sod your bar tab?

The problem is I had two beers at 5 euros each, when the bar bill arrived it was for 500,000 euros, when I questioned the bill I was told I had to pay for everyone's bar bill for the next 10 years. 

[@Lee]

Just now, moley said:

The problem is I had two beers at 5 euros each, when the bar bill arrived it was for 500,000 euros, when I questioned the bill I was told I had to pay for everyone's bar bill for the next 10 years. 

But we're not paying everyone's bar bill are we.
Just honouring financial and other commitments we voted for and agreed upon.

[moley]

1 minute ago, Lee01 said:

But we're not paying everyone's bar bill are we.
Just honouring financial and other commitments we voted for and agreed upon.

Do you know what we have agreed to and how much we owe?

[@Lee]

Just now, moley said:

Do you know what we have agreed to and how much we owe?

No. DD really ought to pull his finger out and get it sorted. 

[@Lee]

Quote

Court gridlock warning as government ponders ‘no deal’

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/news/press-releases/court-gridlock-warning-as-government-ponders-no-deal/