EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[domhnall]

11 hours ago, Skoffski said:

Businesses in Tourism in Scotland are in serious trouble this year from a shortage of employees.

Agricultural businesses as well. 

 

there are going to have to be a lot of people taking low paid jobs or many businesses will be going out of business or downsizing.

 

and the population decline and depopulation in rural areas will return with a vengeance

[domhnall]

9 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

ou do not want to understand do you. Recognising qualifications is part of what the single market does. Its not being part of a club, its agreeing a standardise and recognise that qualifications and standards in different countries are equivalent and putting the processes and procedures in place to make sure they stay like it, don't diverge and instead improve from a common base. 

 

I

4

 

 

This!  This is why we have lost all of our business in Ireland. I used to spend about 60-70% of my time working on Irish projects. I was in Dublin a couple of days every week. Now it has evaporated because as of March all of our qualifications are no longer valid. 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Good to see that a 3rd Pitlochry Hotel has been bought by the MacCumhail Family and the Castle Collection.

They must have faith in being able to get staff in for this season and into the future.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46826108

 

Edited 11 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[CWARD]

I do understand the regulation and standardisation required for the single market and I'll say yet again I have no issue with the single market but the federal Europe under the EU. Again why do you need a foreign policy and an EU Army to work and trade within the EU?

 

From what I remember you work in utilities construction. You have your qualifications that are recognised now within other EU states but after Brexit they won't. Will you suddenly be unqualified and with no experience overnight or the fact that because you no longer pay into a protectionist club that you will be overlooked for a newly qualified but with zero experience because they did pay in? This is the same as a closed shop union employment, which ironically is against EU constitutional guarantees.

   

[trundlenut]

12 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

This!  This is why we have lost all of our business in Ireland. I used to spend about 60-70% of my time working on Irish projects. I was in Dublin a couple of days every week. Now it has evaporated because as of March all of our qualifications are no longer valid. 

 

 

And I've been in the situation where we were working for a US company which had taken another US company with operations in the UK. As a result they were changing production around, stopping particular work at one site. This required a change to their environmental permit. So we had due diligence and liability assessment work that needed to be signed off in the US, but permit variation that needed to be signed off in the UK. So the UK staff couldn't sign off the US work and vice versa, so we needed more people spread across the UK, US and Canada to do it all. Canadian qualifications are accepted in the US by the way. 

[trundlenut]

26 minutes ago, CWARD said:

I do understand the regulation and standardisation required for the single market and I'll say yet again I have no issue with the single market but the federal Europe under the EU. Again why do you need a foreign policy and an EU Army to work and trade within the EU?

 

From what I remember you work in utilities construction. You have your qualifications that are recognised now within other EU states but after Brexit they won't. Will you suddenly be unqualified and with no experience overnight or the fact that because you no longer pay into a protectionist club that you will be overlooked for a newly qualified but with zero experience because they did pay in? This is the same as a closed shop union employment, which ironically is against EU constitutional guarantees.

   

My qualifications will no longer be accepted by regulators and insurers etc. that is the issue. Its not about being in an evil club, its about have certainty that the person who signs things off has the skills, expertise and qualifications to make the assessment and that those people who then have to stump up insurance or allow the public to use something know it is OK. 

 

It's obvious with professions like medicine, but what about the person responsible for a bridge design or a reinforced earth bank, or for assessing the chemicals used in a household cleaner or tin of paint. 

 

Say you buy a new house with a retaining wall on one boundary, your mortgage provider will want a warranty before they lend the money, the warranty provider will want to know that the wall has been designed and constructed correctly before they will approve the warranty. So they supply a report signed off by a chartered engineer saying its all hunky dory, away you go. 

 

But what if the wall is built using a foreign designed system. If it is from the EU, it shouldn't be a problem, but what if it is Chinese say? 

 

And then what if there is a problem, what come back do you have? If its an EU company, it should fine. But say it is a US firm. They are likely to tell you go swivel unless you take them to court in the US. 

[CWARD]

We are not talking about a foreign designed system but your qualification gained under a previously recognised body and you having experience of working under EU standards suddenly overnight not been recognised. 

For your information I am also in the same boat that my qualifications will no longer be EU mutually recognised but they will still be in many more countries than within the EU. 

 

Quote

its about have certainty that the person who signs things off has the skills, expertise and qualifications to make the assessment

 

If we leave with no deal would your skills, expertise and qualifications be any less on 30th March 2019 than they were on 29th?

[trundlenut]

9 minutes ago, CWARD said:

We are not talking about a foreign designed system but your qualification gained under a previously recognised body and you having experience of working under EU standards suddenly overnight not been recognised. 

For your information I am also in the same boat that my qualifications will no longer be EU mutually recognised but they will still be in many more countries than within the EU. 

 

 

If we leave with no deal would your skills, expertise and qualifications be any less on 30th March 2019 than they were on 29th?

No, but they will be worth less, they will be more limited outside the UK (though I should still be good in Australia, NZ and Hong Kong).

 

We are deliberately leaving the structure under which they are recognised, it is our choice, a result of our deliberate unilateral action.  We want these things to stop, we have chosen this specific path.  it is not being forced upon us, we are choosing to do it.

 

Oh and we are not going to get an EU army.

[trundlenut]

15 minutes ago, CWARD said:

We are not talking about a foreign designed system but your qualification gained under a previously recognised body and you having experience of working under EU standards suddenly overnight not been recognised. 

For your information I am also in the same boat that my qualifications will no longer be EU mutually recognised but they will still be in many more countries than within the EU. 

 

 

If we leave with no deal would your skills, expertise and qualifications be any less on 30th March 2019 than they were on 29th?

One other example I just thought of.  I have worked with a UK company which installs a UK manufactured product which was designed by a EU (I think it is Danish) company.  All of the accreditation was done in the Czech Republic, where they did all the development at another production facility the EU company own (although the lab that did the important part of the testing was Greek IIRC).  I looks likely that all of that accreditation will need to be done again, because of what we are choosing to do.

[CWARD]

Your example just further highlights the rubber stamping of legislation in a order to be approved. If your not part of the club your product  recognised yesterday is not recognised today. 

 

As for the E.U. Army you best tell Germany, France and Brussels that you said they can’t have it. You might need another treaty to erase it from the Lisbon treaty though. 

Edited 11 January, 2019 by CWARD

[trundlenut]

2 minutes ago, CWARD said:

Your example just further highlights the rubber stamping of legislation in a order to be approved. If your not part of the club your product  recognised yesterday is not recognised today. 

 

As for the E.U. Army you best tell Germany, France and Brussels that you said they can’t have it. You might need another treaty to erase it from the Lisbon treaty though. 

Wrong on both counts, deliberately so.

 

Ok, so as of tomorrow nothing has changed, but what about in a month, or 3, or 2 years?  What if we make a change to legislation and substitute an ASTM test for an ISO one which is less rigorous? What if we increase the maximum allowable concentration of lead to be used in a certain process or product?  When does it change?

 

What if we reduce the number of years experience required to qualify as a chartered structural engineer, next year, or reduce the university course to 2 years and remove some of the content?  Or we align with the US and they have different eligibility criteria for chartered civil engineers?

 

How do we maintain that link and confirm nothing has changed after we leave the structures which are designed to do just that.

[CWARD]

and if you wanted to continue with the E.U. you could CPE your qualifications to another member states recognised qualification., which as a professional with many years experience shouldn’t cause you any problems 

[CWARD]

37 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

Wrong on both counts, deliberately so.

 

Ok, so as of tomorrow nothing has changed, but what about in a month, or 3, or 2 years?  What if we make a change to legislation and substitute an ASTM test for an ISO one which is less rigorous? What if we increase the maximum allowable concentration of lead to be used in a certain process or product?  When does it change?

 

What if we reduce the number of years experience required to qualify as a chartered structural engineer, next year, or reduce the university course to 2 years and remove some of the content?  Or we align with the US and they have different eligibility criteria for chartered civil engineers?

 

How do we maintain that link and confirm nothing has changed after we leave the structures which are designed to do just that.

 

Please answer me this. All these professionals that have been relocated to other E.U. states how they going to work after Brexit? After all they have professional bodies that won’t be mutually recognised either. 

[gadgetman]

2 hours ago, CWARD said:

Again why do you need a foreign policy and an EU Army to work and trade within the EU?

The EU army is a myth. 

 

As is the current fake news doing the rounds on social media about a Lisbon treaty coming into effect which would remove all countries vetoes, all countries must adopt the euro and a host of other lies. 

[gadgetman]

52 minutes ago, CWARD said:

As for the E.U. Army you best tell Germany, France and Brussels that you said they can’t have it. You might need another treaty to erase it from the Lisbon treaty though. 

Care to share a link from the EU on this Lisbon treaty being banded around social media? 

 

It's been proved false 

[trundlenut]

3 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Please answer me this. All these professionals that have been relocated to other E.U. states how they going to work after Brexit? After all they have professional bodies that won’t be mutually recognised either. 

**** knows. It wasn't going to be a problem according to the leave campaigns. They can sort it, their masterminds have had decades to sort this out. 

[CWARD]

19 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

The EU army is a myth. 

 

As is the current fake news doing the rounds on social media about a Lisbon treaty coming into effect which would remove all countries vetoes, all countries must adopt the euro and a host of other lies. 

 

Try using google to search, I’ve already provided the details of the relevant articles. 

[CWARD]

27 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

Care to share a link from the EU on this Lisbon treaty being banded around social media? 

 

It's been proved false 

 

Fill your boots 

 

Quote

Annex – Treaty on European Union, defence clauses

Article 42

 

1. The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy. It shall provide the Union with an operational capacity drawing on civilian and military assets. The Union may use them on missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. The performance of these tasks shall be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States.

2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The policy of the Union in accordance with this Section shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States and shall respect the obligations of certain Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), under the North Atlantic Treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework.

3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy.

Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities. The Agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments (hereinafter referred to as “the European Defence Agency”) shall identify operational requirements, shall promote measures to satisfy those requirements, shall contribute to identifying and, where appropriate, implementing any measure needed to strengthen the industrial and technological base of the defence sector, shall participate in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and shall assist the Council in evaluating the improvement of military capabilities.

4. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State. The High Representative may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments, together with the Commission where appropriate.

5. The Council may entrust the execution of a task, within the Union framework, to a group of Member States in order to protect the Union's values and serve its interests. The execution of such a task shall be governed by Article 44.

6. Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework. Such cooperation shall be governed by Article 46. It shall not affect the provisions of Article 43.

7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.

 

Article 43

 

1. The tasks referred to in Article 42(1), in the course of which the Union may use civilian and military means, shall include joint disarmament operations, humanitarian and rescue tasks, military advice and assistance tasks, conflict prevention and peace-keeping tasks, tasks of combat forces in crisis management, including peace-making and post-conflict stabilisation. All these tasks may contribute to the fight against terrorism, including by supporting third countries in combating terrorism in their territories.

2. The Council shall adopt decisions relating to the tasks referred to in paragraph 1, defining their objectives and scope and the general conditions for their implementation. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, acting under the authority of the Council and in close and constant contact with the Political and Security Committee, shall ensure coordination of the civilian and military aspects of such tasks.

 

Article 44

 

1. Within the framework of the decisions adopted in accordance with Article 43, the Council may entrust the implementation of a task to a group of Member States which are willing and have the necessary capability for such a task. Those Member States, in association with the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, shall agree among themselves on the management of the task.

2. Member States participating in the task shall keep the Council regularly informed of its progress on their own initiative or at the request of another Member State. Those States shall inform the Council immediately should the completion of the task entail major consequences or require amendment of the objective, scope and conditions determined for the task in the decisions referred to in paragraph 1. In such cases, the Council shall adopt the necessary decisions.

 

Article 45

1. The European Defence Agency referred to in Article 42(3), subject to the authority of the Council, shall have as its task to:

(a) contribute to identifying the Member States' military capability objectives and evaluating observance of the capability commitments given by the Member States;

(b) promote harmonisation of operational needs and adoption of effective, compatible procurement methods;

(c) propose multilateral projects to fulfil the objectives in terms of military capabilities, ensure coordination of the programmes implemented by the Member States and management of specific cooperation programmes;

(d) support defence technology research, and coordinate and plan joint research activities and the study of technical solutions meeting future operational needs;

(e) contribute to identifying and, if necessary, implementing any useful measure for strengthening the industrial and technological base of the defence sector and for improving the effectiveness of military expenditure.

2. The European Defence Agency shall be open to all Member States wishing to be part of it. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall adopt a decision defining the Agency's statute, seat and operational rules. That decision should take account of the level of effective participation in the Agency's activities. Specific groups shall be set up within the Agency bringing together Member States engaged in joint projects. The Agency shall carry out its tasks in liaison with the Commission where necessary.

 

Article 46

 

1. Those Member States which wish to participate in the permanent structured cooperation referred to in Article 42(6), which fulfil the criteria and have made the commitments on military capabilities set out in the Protocol on permanent structured cooperation, shall notify their intention to the Council and to the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

2. Within three months following the notification referred to in paragraph 1 the Council shall adopt a decision establishing permanent structured cooperation and determining the list of participating Member States. The Council shall act by a qualified majority after consulting the High Representative.

3. Any Member State which, at a later stage, wishes to participate in the permanent structured cooperation shall notify its intention to the Council and to the High Representative.

The Council shall adopt a decision confirming the participation of the Member State concerned which fulfils the criteria and makes the commitments referred to in Articles 1 and 2 of the Protocol on permanent structured cooperation. The Council shall act by a qualified majority after consulting the High Representative. Only members of the Council representing the participating Member States shall take part in the vote.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(a) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

4. If a participating Member State no longer fulfils the criteria or is no longer able to meet the commitments referred to in Articles 1 and 2 of the Protocol on permanent structured cooperation, the Council may adopt a decision suspending the participation of the Member State concerned.

The Council shall act by a qualified majority. Only members of the Council representing the participating Member States, with the exception of the Member State in question, shall take part in the vote.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(a) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. Any participating Member State which wishes to withdraw from permanent structured cooperation shall notify its intention to the Council, which shall take note that the Member State in question has ceased to participate.

 

6. The decisions and recommendations of the Council within the framework of permanent structured cooperation, other than those provided for in paragraphs 2 to 5, shall be adopted by unanimity. For the purposes of this paragraph, unanimity shall be constituted by the votes of the representatives of the participating Member States only.

 

PROTOCOL
ON PERMANENT STRUCTURED COOPERATION 

ESTABLISHED BY ARTICLE 42 OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION

 

 

THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES,

HAVING REGARD TO Article 42(6) and Article 46 of the Treaty on European Union,

RECALLING that the Union is pursuing a common foreign and security policy based on the achievement of growing convergence of action by Member States;

RECALLING that the common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy; that it provides the Union with operational capacity drawing on civil and military assets; that the Union may use such assets in the tasks referred to in Article 43 of the Treaty on European Union outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter; that the performance of these tasks is to be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States in accordance with the principle of a single set of forces;

RECALLING that the common security and defence policy of the Union does not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States;

RECALLING that the common security and defence policy of the Union respects the obligations under the North Atlantic Treaty of those Member States which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which remains the foundation of the collective defence of its members, and is compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework;

CONVINCED that a more assertive Union role in security and defence matters will contribute to the vitality of a renewed Atlantic Alliance, in accordance with the Berlin Plus arrangements;

DETERMINED to ensure that the Union is capable of fully assuming its responsibilities within the international community;

RECOGNISING that the United Nations Organisation may request the Union’s assistance for the urgent implementation of missions undertaken under Chapters VI and VII of the United Nations Charter;

RECOGNISING that the strengthening of the security and defence policy will require efforts by Member States in the area of capabilities;

CONSCIOUS that embarking on a new stage in the development of the European security and defence policy involves a determined effort by the Member States concerned;

RECALLING the importance of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy being fully involved in proceedings relating to permanent structured cooperation,

HAVE AGREED UPON the following provisions, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

Article 1

The permanent structured cooperation referred to in Article 42(6) of the Treaty on European Union shall be open to any Member State which undertakes, from the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, to:

(a) proceed more intensively to develop its defence capacities through the development of its national contributions and participation, where appropriate, in multinational forces, in the main European equipment programmes, and in the activity of the Agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments (European Defence Agency), and

(b) have the capacity to supply by 2010 at the latest, either at national level or as a component of multinational force groups, targeted combat units for the missions planned, structured at a tactical level as a battle group, with support elements including transport and logistics, capable of carrying out the tasks referred to in Article 43 of the Treaty on European Union, within a period of 5 to 30 days, in particular in response to requests from the United Nations Organisation, and which can be sustained for an initial period of 30 days and be extended up to at least 120 days.

Article 2

To achieve the objectives laid down in Article 1, Member States participating in permanent structured cooperation shall undertake to:

(a) cooperate, as from the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, with a view to achieving approved objectives concerning the level of investment expenditure on defence equipment, and regularly review these objectives, in the light of the security environment and of the Union’s international responsibilities;

(b) bring their defence apparatus into line with each other as far as possible, particularly by harmonising the identification of their military needs, by pooling and, where appropriate, specialising their defence means and capabilities, and by encouraging cooperation in the fields of training and logistics;

(c) take concrete measures to enhance the availability, interoperability, flexibility and deployability of their forces, in particular by identifying common objectives regarding the commitment of forces, including possibly reviewing their national decision-making procedures;

(d) work together to ensure that they take the necessary measures to make good, including through multinational approaches, and without prejudice to undertakings in this regard within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, the shortfalls perceived in the framework of the ’Capability Development Mechanism’;

(e) take part, where appropriate, in the development of major joint or European equipment programmes in the framework of the European Defence Agency.

Article 3

 

The European Defence Agency shall contribute to the regular assessment of participating Member States’ contributions with regard to capabilities, in particular contributions made in accordance with the criteria to be established, inter alia, on the basis of Article 2, and shall report thereon at least once a year. The assessment may serve as a basis for Council recommendations and decisions adopted in accordance with Article 46 of the Treaty on European Union.

 

[CWARD]

27 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

**** knows. It wasn't going to be a problem according to the leave campaigns. They can sort it, their masterminds have had decades to sort this out. 

 

You can’t say **** knows when you were adamant that it wouldn’t happen. Maybe Lee or S00perb can inform us as they’ve moved to the mainland. 

[trundlenut]

4 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

You can’t say **** knows when you were adamant that it wouldn’t happen. Maybe Lee or S00perb can inform us as they’ve moved to the mainland. 

What are you on about? 

[Ootohere]

If and when there is Fake News from Continental Europe, or the EU or Russia then surely no need for a UK Defence Minister to comment on it.

 

'On his watch it will never happen'.   No maybe just when he is no longer at the helm. 

 

 

[trundlenut]

7 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Fill your boots 

 

 

THAT

IS

NOT

AN

EU

ARMY! 

 

Besides, it is already in effect, has been since 2010 and has been used. It is mutual defense and is less than NATO. 

 

Where is the EU Army then? 

[gadgetman]

5 minutes ago, CWARD said:

operational capacity drawing on civilian and military assets

 

14 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Fill your boots 

 

 

Which EU page did that come from, as cannot find it on the EU pages. 

[CWARD]

6 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

 

Which EU page did that come from, as cannot find it on the EU pages. 

 

Try searching for it. Cut a first line out of the article, paste it in Google and press search. 

[@Lee]

They probably wouldn't give a toss if it had been signed by a tory