Climbers/Mountaineers

[Jrjg]

Are there any climbers/mountaineers amongst you all? 

 

Myself and a friend have decided we would like to climb Mont Blanc at some stage in the next year or two. I would like to challenge the Matterhorn too...

We realise this is no simple feat and plan on spending a lot of time training and practicing. 

Has anyone climbed the mountain, or anything similar (Alps/Andes/America and dare I say Himalayas!!)? 

We have been scrambling about in the Lake District this winter, heading out on snow days to find some challenging terrain, crampons and ice axes at the ready. However the most difficult climbs aren't much compared to the Alps. Or even to the Munro's in Scotland. 

 

We are working our way through the 'challenging' scrambles and ridge 'Arete' style ascents, some obvious ones remain due to weather conditions, Jack's Rake for example. I welcome any difficult climbs/scrambles/ascent/traverse suggestions in the Lakes. What I would also like to know are suggestions for progression in our pursuit to prepare for a much more severe climb. I live in Lancashire, the Lakes therefore is on the doorstep, but Scotland is unfortunately a good few hours drive away.

 

I plan on completing a good few Munro's this coming year, the more challenging the better. I am told the back side of Ben Nevis is a good climb in the snow, the 'amd' (off the top of my head?) Arete?

I am also lining up a rock climbing course at the local leisure centre to get some basics of rope and harness work. It has been years since I did any abseiling or indoor climbing (wouldn't even consider myself a beginner!), I'm sure a month course on the knots, techniques, roping up etc can only be beneficial for when it comes to roping up on the mountains. 

We have looked at winter mountaineering courses run by Arcteryx and a few other companies, but so far they are all well out of budget. Once again - alternative suggestions are most welcome. 

I have a couple of contacts that I need to sit down with a couple of pints and a notebook, folk who have climbed all the Munro's, and Mont Blanc. So some good information to be had straight away.

 

Our fitness levels are of a good standard (10 mile run isn't a problem, ~20mile walk in a full day isn't either)

 

Does anyone one have any tips or recommendations for things to train for, read about, prepare for, use/get comfortable with, research or anything else? 

 

Stories, experiences, website links, it is all welcome and appreciated! 

 

Many thanks in advance 

 

JRJG 

[Aspman]

My Dad's mate has done every Munro and every Corbett and has moved onto the Grahams.

 

He's never done anything alpine though. Local climbing club might be your best option. I think your looking for climbers rather than walkers.

[john999boy]

@ColinD will be interested in this thread. 

[kit]

Quote

Have been climbing and mountaineering most of my days after growing up in Ullapool. Get yourself hill fit and then get a guide to take you up Mont Blanc, my hillwalking club did it a few years ago and most had little experience. One thing I can tell you is that even in the summer the conditions there can be very bad and a lot of deaths occur in very close proximity to normal tourists due to thinking its a wee bimble up a hill. 

 

[ColinD]

Checking in.

 

Been climbing & mountaineering since the mid 90's. I was going to get 'certified', then got a computer based job :(

 

 It sounds like your fitness is good, I never ran 10 miles, I'm closing in on it at the moment, if I walk the uphill bits  I too have the matterhorn on my todo list. Possibly not via the main route due to dangers from others. I like quiet and I've already had a rock ledge collapse above me in Norway... so things to train for, spotting and predicting objective danger. If you see someone who's 'wild' you don't want to be below them.

Also pace, movement speed over terrain. You'll either be the slow party or trying to get past the slow party. I've had it both ways and being the slow party isn't the nice one. You only gain speed though confidence and experience. I've got a pencil date for the alps in August, although it's pencilled for rock climbs. Depending how my knee holds up, I might go a week earlier and contemplate soloing a few classics.

 

Most days out in the Lakes/Wales scrambling will be ok fitness wise until you start combing things. Bigger mountain experiences are less fitness, more mental fatigue with descents being the greater than half the story. I know Wales really well and getting to know the Lakes since moving to Sheffield, it's oddly slightly easier. The club I'm in has huts all over the country and reciprocal in others. A club can help, but it can also hinder. A few I've been in are very risk adverse roping up for grade 1 scrambles...  

 

Scotland winter is not a easy thing to have a crack at, yet it is... Some do and get away with it, others really experienced don't.

 

I'd say A scottish winter day is harder than an alpine day. Mostly down to conditions, they can be horrible and you're in it and changeable. You do get lovely days too where there is little better. What's really been catching people out in winter of late, has been avalanches. I'll go and dig out the two books I learnt a good bit from on it.  

 

A lot to digest, as much knowing when to say no, and being confident to turn around. A guy I worked with did just that, his gut said no, spoke up to his mate and they turned back, was mocked at by 6 others who soon after died in an avalanche, this was the alps. That said you only know though experience and you only get that doing. Doing things on perfect weather days gets you nothing for the bad days, and the bad days will get you!

 

I've never actually wanted to do Mont Blanc, I've always had a yearning for more technical climbs over intrinsically a walk, crucially though compared to a scottish day, you have crevasses/seracs to deal with. If you can afford to, then a guide would be good. You'll pick up a good few things the right way and perhaps even fast track your learning. I say this not because you need a guide, but the present danger on both is high, the guide will bail long before you want to, he knows!! 2 friends got lost being the first on the mont blanc approach after snow. They lost hours and didn't get the summit. I'd suggest a basic orientation trip to the alps wouldn't hurt, pick of some of the easier more accessible ones, a night or two in a hut. Get some climbing in before you go though.

 

I'm more than happy to spot you on a few challenging scrambles in Wales or the Lakes. Wales is slightly more 'mountaineering' less distance and the lakes starts to build the distance between points. Good combinations, positions and good crags to practise rope work/belaying, a bit of improv rescue etc. How to move, belay, anchors etc.  Can even mix in some booted climbing. I need to get some experience for my various tickets on training. I'm leading up to around E2 on good days, abseiling still scares the heck out of me.  

 

Scrambles I've enjoyed at the upper end of 'scrambling', Parsons Nose, Cneifion Arete, St Sunday Crag; pinnacle ridge, slab n notch :D. Buachaille etive mor, curved ridge, winter aonach eagach, castle ridge. Lots and lots!

 

The matterhorn is a graded climb, technically Moderate, only a few thousand meters up. So I'd say, to do it as a unguided trip, you'd want to be confident at Diff and VDiff in boots at sea level. This affords you some comfort on the more difficult bits, or rather a mental reserve to keep going when there is no rope above you. 

 

Most people can easily climb vDiff when guided. To do it yourself you need to understand ropes, belays and gear, not that hard. If you go for a guide, you can probably manage from where you are now. The guides will cover most of what is needed with a guide giving you a tight rope at times... depends how much you want to enjoy it   

 

Three books I'd suggest to up the scrambing confidence:

Dan Baily Ridges of England, Wales and Ireland - not the one I'm thinking of.

Classic mountain scrambles in scotland - andrew dempster

Scrambles & Easy climbs in Snowdonia ( lakes version too )

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/climbing-matterhorn/

http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/how-difficult-matterhorn

http://www.chamonix-guides.com/Produit/106/3-activites-ete-chamonix.htm

 

Others I can't find online now, those above cover the best of the best anyway.

 

Remember as you push yourself on scrambles you are actually doing the most dangerous form of mountaineering. Often unroped, in big boots on ground not that frequently travelled, so might be slippery or lose, exposure. I love scrambling because it's so free, but there is little safety net and I'd say it's the closest I've been to not making it home... I've also had a few moments even on grade1 scrambles where I've got stuck and faced a stark choice. 

 

Winter is just such a different kettle of fish. Different challenges. I was submerged waist deep last year after going through a tarn-let topped with snow... I saw one other person that day.

 

So specifically for scotland, winter, start of tackling on the easiest of lines. If it's boggin weather, do a lower route or less challenging one, it will be soon become challenging. I could spend hours doing this  

 

Summer alpine now I imagine is mostly rock save for the deepest north face lines. I'd be very wary of tackling a mixed summer line in the alps now. They were scary in the 90's when I decided not to go back for summer mixed. To soft and lose.

 

Tips for a winter day - everyone has some:

• Get some thin tennis racket type grip tape and tape the grip area right around your axe head. Lightly, just enough... reduces the thermal loss.
• Don't sweat, or if you do, carry a spare base to change into. I'll typically in scotland if it's not raining or blowing a hoolie, start the day in just the base layer. I'll get to the CIC hut on the ben in that regulating my pace. I'll then swap and layer up as needed. Use movement as warmth, not a thicker jumper and slower. Heat reduces muscle effectiveness.
• Gloves, more are better than one top pair. I carry a pair of really light runner gloves, typically used on the walk in/out. A pair of winter cycling gloves, actually sealskins, then another pair to suit what I'm doing. This might be fingerless if scrambling or more gauntlett if ice / mixed climbing. Spare socks are your last resort pair.
• Get familiar with the avalanche forecast. Have a friend you can call too, data in scotland is dire, your friend can read you the report.
• Don't be afraid to bail. I've had days skiing over climbing in winter. One on rannoch moor, two guys fell through a cornice; eastern slopes had a danger warning and another guy ion the west flank was soaked as he was in the rain band. Skiing was fine in the snow.
• Get some small 250ml flexible water pouches. Place in chest pocket, stops it freezing.
• Get a nagaleen(sp) bottol and fill it with hot water, it's warm for a good while and lighter than a flask.
• Boil eggs in final minutes before going, use as hand warmers till cool, then eat as a snack
• Stop frequently. 
• Walk like a cowboy.
• Learn to glissade. Learn to stop with an axe on snow and on ice!
• Get a buff for your neck or head or face.
• Get a helmet if 2+ on scrambles of grade 3... ice hurts when moving.
• Gaiters are cheaper than trousers when using crampons.
• You don't need the most expensive kit, you just need to know yourself and what you do have.  Kit won't save you, only you can do that. Accept you'll get wet, know what to do when you are.

 

• Work out your emergency; what if, kit. I found this out waiting for some friends on the ben. They were on point V, they had the car key. I spent 4+hours getting colder and colder. Imagine if I'd been on the mountain.
• Knowing yourself is a truly important part of scottish climbing.
• Also knowing which buttons not to press of your mate when you're both knackered.
• Also knowing what your mate can and cannot do. I got my best man into climbing, climbed with him for years... topped out in a white out, frozen ropes, passed him map to navigate off. "Don't know how col, you did it all", he's now an exceptional navigator.

 

A course will train you. I'm more than happy to do some informal days out. 

 

The Ben has three classic ridge lines, these are mostly winter climbs, summer top end scrambles. I think the one you're referring to though, is the CMD. Never done it. 

 

So above all else have fun.

 

If you want suggestions on kit, etc just ask.

 

  

Lakes - raining hard - hardly anyone out. We went out found a scramble and had a laugh, it a little wet.

 

Scotland in May is ideal for longer days and bigger scrambles and almost no snow ;). 

 

Grade something... exploring a crag in the Lakes in my earlier years. I was actually stuck here. as I'd gone up a section I didn't want to reverse. Rope and rack is in bag! 

 

Alps in summer, learning some basic rock routes. Acclimatisation is key.

 

Alpine retreating after seracs told us to go back.

 

[ColinD]

A nice read: http://www.climbing.com/news/matterhorn-madness-unmasked/

[Jrjg]

On 3 February 2017 at 13:48, ColinD said:

Checking in.  (Muchos edited to save room)**

Some great reading material there, great tips (that I will be sure to try out), great pics and a very kind offer of 'showing us the ropes', pun intended. 

I wouldn't want to be completely ignorant to it all so I will at least strive to get some basics learnt and practiced before taking you up on your offer. A day in the Lakes/Peak district (wherever would be best for yourself) practising some low level climbing with yourself as a guide/overseer would be brilliant. 

I will have a look on EBay for those books and get them bought and read. 

 

Many thanks for such a thorough and in depth response. 

 

I shall be in touch. 

 

JRJ

Edited 7 February, 2017 by Jrjg
Avoid long repeated post.

[Jrjg]

On 3 February 2017 at 13:59, ColinD said:

A nice read: http://www.climbing.com/news/matterhorn-madness-unmasked/

Gives me a good idea as to how demanding the climb is. 

I knew the Matterhorn was a definite guide only kind of climb. Easy to see why after reading that. 

[cheezemonkhai]

Hello

 

This sounds interesting, I've managed the three peaks and Kilimanjaro, so I'd be interested in a climb, although not anything with death a certainty written all over it

[ColinD]

Honestly when I'm climbing I feel safer than I do walking the high street. True enough if I let go soloing...  so most of the time I feel safer, sometimes I'm bricking it

 

 

@Jrjg I know a few who've done it without the guide, they have been doing lots of alpine stuff. I think as it's become such a popular peak.... well for about 330 euros, I'd be tempted to defer to a guide as a treat. Given I've never made it to the summit of a 4k I really should try harder... I know I'm good for climbing 5+ up to 3800m.  Problem is by Aug I need to be good for 6a+.. Gym time and multistory car park stairwells

 

As I say, I'm out to the alps on the 20th of Aug; chasing weather so no firm plans, before then happy to hit a few scottish scrambling days or rope work in the north lakes. We have a hut in borrowdale; keswick, so plenty of options roadside or walkin, do a classic climb and walk out. Same goes for Ogwen, can walk out from the hut to Tryfan  So long as I'm not repeating too much; lakes ideal the, I'm happy to do anything.

 

Technically I need experience stamps for singlepitch. All informal, have to be careful not to say I'm guiding or instructing, red tape you know. At least until I 'qualify' and pay for insurance.

 

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

From doing a 19000ft+, it doesn't matter how good your lung capacity in the gym, the altitude sickness will still get you without either much acclimatisation or an oxygen supply.

 

I'd certainly do a tour, although I am now thinking I wonder about a brisky 3 peaks for a charity if we could get enough people involved.

[ColinD]

aye. the first alps trip I did a night at 2500 then a night at 3800, got a good bout of I'm not eating couscous...  seen a few tourists nearly collapse on the top of cable cars in the alps... out of the bus to the cafe. 

 

brisky 3 peaks, which one, the yorkshire trio or the tops [ snowdon, scafell, ben-nevis]? 

 

 

[Jrjg]

4 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Hello

 

This sounds interesting, I've managed the three peaks and Kilimanjaro, so I'd be interested in a climb, although not anything with death a certainty written all over it

I have thought about Kilimanjaro but I would much prefer some quieter less known peaks if I'm honest. I would much rather climb some of the top ten highest peaks in the world than Everest (not that it will ever happen that is). How many days did it take for you to summit Kili then? What temperature is it up there, I imagine it to be shorts and t shirt's at the bottom, then hats gloves etc at the top? 

 

3 hours ago, ColinD said:

 

@Jrjg I know a few who've done it without the guide, they have been doing lots of alpine stuff. I think as it's become such a popular peak.... well for about 330 euros, I'd be tempted to defer to a guide as a treat. Given I've never made it to the summit of a 4k I really should try harder... I know I'm good for climbing 5+ up to 3800m.  Problem is by Aug I need to be good for 6a+.. Gym time and multistory car park stairwells

 

As I say, I'm out to the alps on the 20th of Aug; chasing weather so no firm plans, before then happy to hit a few scottish scrambling days or rope work in the north lakes. We have a hut in borrowdale; keswick, so plenty of options roadside or walkin, do a classic climb and walk out. Same goes for Ogwen, can walk out from the hut to Tryfan  So long as I'm not repeating too much; lakes ideal the, I'm happy to do anything.

 

Technically I need experience stamps for singlepitch. All informal, have to be careful not to say I'm guiding or instructing, red tape you know. At least until I 'qualify' and pay for insurance.

 

 

 

I have read a bit about the Matterhorn being treacherous on the way back down. Some of the statistics for the percentage of people airlifted off the mountain without a guide compared to those with a guide were shocking. Hence a guide for the Matterhorn would be a necessity. Friends that climbed Mont Blanc did so without a guide, there was a couple in the group that were seasoned and very experienced mountaineers, great navigators. Although they said that they didn't particularly need a guide as it was that busy, they just followed the snake of people heading uphill. 

 

Don't worry, if someone asks we've never met and we have just bumped into one another  

 

Where is it you are planning that is 6k+ ? 

 

 

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

From doing a 19000ft+, it doesn't matter how good your lung capacity in the gym, the altitude sickness will still get you without either much acclimatisation or an oxygen supply.

 

I'd certainly do a tour, although I am now thinking I wonder about a brisky 3 peaks for a charity if we could get enough people involved.

I have been to ~3500m in the Alps skiing before, can't remember which glacier or mountain rang it was on though, can't say I ever suffered from any altitude effects. However I am well aware that even though skiing/snowboarding can get tough on the legs, it is a walk in the park compared to climbing up a mountain. Not to mention the fact that you're not doing any work going downhill. Then sitting one a bench/in a cable car to do the hard work uphill. 

 

JRJG  

[Jrjg]

Would definitely be interested in both the Yorkshire 3 peaks (whernside, Ingleborough and pennyghent (sp) and the 3 tops of the UK. 

And would have my own and walking friend names' down immediately. 

 

JRJG 

[Jrjg]

Also: 

Would training in a gym with an altitude mask be a good way of simulating low oxygen conditions or not? If it is starving your body of oxygen then surely it is the next best thing to being up a mountain? I was reading recently about a gym that has a 'reduced oxygen count'. -15% or -20%... 

[cheezemonkhai]

I was going up a treadmill carrying 10KG in my hands, at 12kmph and full incline and still chatting to the PT and then with an oxygen restriction device.

I still suffered from the effects of altitude sickness, although it was at 5895m (19341ft) that I noticed.

 

As for which 3 peaks, I could do Yorkshire, but if it's a charity thing, then you kind of have to do the known three.

Finish at snowdon and you can have families up at the top on the train

 

Edited 6 February, 2017 by cheezemonkhai

[ColinD]

4k isn't that low. If you allow a couple of days to yoyo the height and get used to it. There as @cheezemonkhai said, no real correlation. My old PT; ex army, fit as a fiddle, would run faster backwards shouting than you could forwards, could not get above 3500 without crushing headaches.

 

Gear and the amount we as brits tend to take is a downfall. I'd say learning winter in scotland is a great prep for the alps, but not kit wise. I still have nightmares about hauling my rucsac up an overhanging section of rock, it had a pair of plastics, fleece and god knows what else in it. Doing the same route today, I'd skip over the snow field in trainers, or read the guide before leaving and stay in bed. It's good to take stuff,and scotland teaches you that, especially on a wet white day ( where it rains more than snows ). Again speed, confidence to be out with less comes from experience. I see fell runners in winter in shorts and nothing of note on them. If something happened they would be in trouble quicker than I... but they'll be in the pub sooner.

 

I'm actually on top of a hill, only a half mile but steep enough for cardio 250m rise in 1600feet ... I should just go and do laps of it really.

 

If you're after a few spoilers... or motivation

 

 

[ColinD]

And really... given I have these words in my head most days, I really should think about getting myself up it. Darn, help turns to pain

 

"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." Edward Whymper

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whymper

 

On this one at 2:31... I twitch, it's called a sky hook. I carry one and I've used it a few times. Never thought to ...

 

 

Edited 6 February, 2017 by ColinD

[ColinD]

Well I was going to do some work today  Crampons on rock work ... that's "fun". Thankfully you can't see much in the first part of this video, which from the route descriptions is the complex route finding bit. I'd be very tempted to take a bit of the route in on an acclimatisation day. If only so I'd know to turn left or right as I step out. I'd also take a better headtorch ;).

 

 

The main hut is closed till June 1st for renovations, looks amazing. Then it's open at 150CHF ( £120 ) a night. Covers dinner, breakfast. 

 

I think in the video he's with a guide.

[cheezemonkhai]

Anyone want to organise a 3 peaks for brisky?

 

Do we have a charity we could support? Not meaning to seem macabre, but we've lost a few members on here, so perhaps a suitable charity for the disease that got Mr Grumpy or similar?

[ColinD]

3 hours ago, Jrjg said:

Where is it you are planning that is 6k+ ? 

 

arh no not 6k, 6a+ it's a french climbing grade , about E1.  Some of the bits of rock up on the tops are hard. Fortunately I'm not going on those bits, but some easier bits  It might be easier to go up a 6k peak but my circulation is most definitely of a lizards thinking. So I need to be moving; hence base layer walkin, or in full sun; like a lizard... in between I'm just a shade of blue purple that has people worried. It's why I normally solo in winter, can't be waiting on stances for hours. It's like watching a snowman try to climb otherwise.

[cheezemonkhai]

So....

 

Anyone fancy a Mr Grumpy Charity climb? Talk to some of the members on here who knew his family and get his wife to pick a charity, then do the three peaks?

[Jrjg]

17 hours ago, ColinD said:

 

arh no not 6k, 6a+ it's a french climbing grade , about E1.  Some of the bits of rock up on the tops are hard. Fortunately I'm not going on those bits, but some easier bits  It might be easier to go up a 6k peak but my circulation is most definitely of a lizards thinking. So I need to be moving; hence base layer walkin, or in full sun; like a lizard... in between I'm just a shade of blue purple that has people worried. It's why I normally solo in winter, can't be waiting on stances for hours. It's like watching a snowman try to climb otherwise.

That makes sense, I have been in similar scenarios before but only briefly, waiting for a member of the group to struggle and scramble up a steep section. I assume the wait gets longer and longer once you factor in ropes, harnesses etc and actual climbing as opposed to scrambling. 

23 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

So....

 

Anyone fancy a Mr Grumpy Charity climb? Talk to some of the members on here who knew his family and get his wife to pick a charity, then do the three peaks?

Definitely. 

Do you know any of the practicalities of it? The driving, rendezvous' etc? 

 

JRJG 

[cheezemonkhai]

Three peaks, might as well organise a company with a minibus to drive you around, it's not expensive.

[Breckie]

I did Mont Blanc about a thousand years ago. I've climbed up to grade 3+ in Winter & finished my Munros in 1998 before moving on to the Pamirs & the Himalaya.  Mont Blanc isn't particularly difficult by the Gouter route although it has got a tad "iffy" crossing the Grand Couloir (See https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5784  for info)

 

You have to get used to very long days in the hills and moving together over tricky terrain. Winter in Scotland is probably the best type of training. You're right in that something like the Carn Mor Dearg Arete would be good. Starting about 2.00 a.m. from the North Face car park after a broken nights sleep is great training! Running ten miles won't help an awful lot I'm afraid.

 

Have you thought on a guide? Not overly expensive and they can be invaluable in knowing the routes and reading the conditions.

 

Whatever you do stay safe and have a great time.