Felicia track rod flip / bumpsteer correction??

[Jeggo]

Hi guys, my track rods are at quite an angle since I've lowered my felly a fair bit and wondered if there was any track rod flip kits or bump steep kits people have used for the felly. 

Ive seen people use rose jointed concoctions to flip them over but they might not be good for daily road use? What's your take?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm on hp sporting coilovers incase anyone wonders

[KenONeill]

Well, yes the change in the outer joint height relative to the rack is the cause of your bump steer.

 

Before trying to fix that by itself, do you have significant changes in the camber and castor angles too?

[Jeggo]

I wouldn't know if the castor has changed, I don't know how I could tell but I have gained negative camber by lowering. 

 

I want to flip them because the rods are close to the body of the car and  there is the possibility they might make contact. They are also close to their limit of traveling up. However the springs are quite stiff so there isn't that much body movement.

The picture doesn't quite show the angle, it's quite hard to get a picture whilst the car is on the ground

 

 

[MotorsportFinland]

I have no direct replacement, but I think you would need something like these parts?

 

http://131abarth.com/shop/uniball/fi/35-bumpsteer-raidetangot

 

 

[Jeggo]

I'm thinking if it would be possible to get some inserts made up that follow the exact same taper of the felly track rod end/wishbone connection. You could drill the wishbone hole straight then put these in. Then I don't see why you couldn't use normal track rod ends which would last longer and be easier and cheaper to do. 

 

Things lile these...

 

[nu99et18]

Yeah that would be the best way to do it. Exactly how people do it on low Mk2 Golf's, shame Felicia's don't use the same size! Unless you can find some for a Lupo/Polo as i think they're the same size as Felicia rod ends.

However when using the flip kit they also use ball joint extenders to get the wishbone more level. I assume your wishbones are near enough the same angle as the rods? 

(From what i have read people suggest not just doing one you're best to do both, flip and extenders)

Early Mk2 Golf's use 17mm ball joints as do Felicia's so good potential for ball joint extenders there.

[KenONeill]

@Jeggo - You may well already know this, but the castor angle is the angle the strut makes to the vertical, viewed from the side. I'm pretty sure that lowering a strut car that much without re-locating suspension pickups (and I don't mean eccentric bushes which can adjust camber a bit) will increase castor, and could increase bump steer even if the wishbone and track rod geometry is correct. (in that context I'll note that even manufacturers sometimes get this wrong by setting the rack at the wrong height so that the wishbones and track rods are never parallel.)

 

I've no idea if such items are available for the Felly, but I'd try searching for adjustable top mounts.

[Jeggo]

thanks guys, i'll have to get some internet searching on!

[nu99et18]

I've looked into this a bit more and it turns out that mk2 Golf are m12 the same as Felicia track rod ends, for some reason i had it in my head mk2 Golf were m14!

Anyway spoke to the chap from this site and he said the 'late' type flip kits he sells are for m12 track rods.

https://www.buttysbits.com/product-category/bay-window/trackrod-flip-kits-bump-steer-kits-bay-window/

So looks like with these and then possibly mk1/mk2 Golf 17mm ball joint extenders it will be possible to get the steering arms and wishbones much more level on a lowered Felicia.

Edited 31 March, 2017 by nu99et18

[Jeggo]

Thanks for looking into this, very helpful! Just doing a bit more research!

[Jeggo]

On the compbrake website ebay page they have golf track rod ends as m14 x 1.5 and the felicia is m12 x 1. But if those inserts are for m12 then surely the taper should still fit properly?

[nu99et18]

I think that's where i went wrong with the m14 thing, i think that is refering to the inner thread that fits to the end of the rod not the outer thread you put the nut on.

I've bought a pair of those inserts anyway for the sake of £20 and i'll try a Felicia track rod end in them when they arrive.

[Jeggo]

Nice one! Let me know how it turns out!

[nu99et18]

Got them today and two brand new track rod ends and they fit nicely so now just need to find some mk1/mk2 Golf 17mm ball joint extenders.

[Jeggo]

Wow that's great! I've contacted compbrake to see if they have any track rod ends suitable for a Felicia and he said he was sure they can do and was looking into it. 

I'll be purchasing those inserts and ballpoint extenders in due course, I think it should make a massive difference!

[nu99et18]

Where are you going to get the ball joint extenders from? 

Found only a couple of places and they seem quite pricey...

[Jeggo]

Not sure, funds are a bit low for me so mods are on hold temporarily. They do seem a bit expensive, just trying to find more places that do them

[Jeggo]

I have some 17mm ball joint extenders on order, should arrive in about 2 weeks. Will let you people know how it goes

[nu99et18]

Mine should be here tomorrow and i should get my hub assembly's back from machining either tonight or tomorrow.

If so i can get everything back together tomorrow hopefully.

I bought mine from "Only Charged Dubs" which come with some more tapered sleeves which i already have hmm

Where did you buy yours?

 

[Jeggo]

Yes I got my stuff from the same company and its all fitted into my car now. the bolts they supply are pretty silly. they dont even poke out the end by the nyloc! ive used some other bolts for the time being but will be getting some proper shouldered ones soon. (bottom one is the one they supply, top was the old bolt. i fitted washers after the picture was taken)

 

I see you got your hub machined properly, smart man! i thought it would cheaper to drill it out myself but mate that material is hard! The cost of the drill bits would of been the cost to get it done properly and it took hours and hours too! Live and learn i guess.

So for people that want to know, the kit cost £120 posted and was intended for the VW golf MK2 with 17mm balljoints from Only Charged Dubs. Requires drilling out the hole where the track rod end goes to 17mm to fit the new insert. The hole already there goes to 12.5 on its smallest end and is very hard and took a long time to drill out with 13, 14, 16 and 17mm bits with cutting oil and i also think i busted my drill. Get it drilled out properly i urge you. Save the hassle. The insert is like 17.15mm wide so you can heat up the hole and smash the insert in to be a tight fit (use a bit of wood to bash on the insert so you dont damage it)

(NOTE the insert goes the other way round to what i have pictured. I also fitted a large washer under the nut as the nut mainly sits on the insert whereas it needs to sit on the hub material)

 

As for the ball joint extender it involves splitting the lower ball joint and fitting the extender on top. Should be straight foward but the extender does not come up high enough so the bolt wont pass through. I removed the caliper and carrier and used a flap disc on a grinder to trim the material down so the extender goes up higher. Once it was up enough, the bolt needed some encouragement from a hammer but it did go through.

 

You'll have to get your tracking done once you are finished but you can do it okay with axle stands and string or other methods. There are guides on how to do this.

 

So the angles are much better now as you can see and the suspension is definitely a lot less "crashy" over bumpers and speed bumps, was very bumpy and rough before. So far i havent actually noticed too much difference on cornering but the weather has not been dry so haven't had a chance to drive it properly yet. NOTE this is only necessary on very low cars as the angles of wishbone/track rod will not be severe enough say on 35mm drop. My tyres tuck under the arches front and back and the angles look nearly dead straight so use that as reference. 

Before

 

After

 

Notice the anti roll bar angle which sits better in the link.

 

Before

 

Before

 

After

 

Before

 

After 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 May, 2017 by Jeggo

[RicardoM]

13 hours ago, Jeggo said:

Notice the anti roll bar angle which sits better in the link.

OMG... there are only 3 cm of clearance to the ground. This means you'll have to drive only on flat road. Otherwise you'll be followed by a trail of sparks. And the kidneys... oh the kidneys...

[Jeggo]

Yes it does sit low but suprisingly doesn't catch that often but you have to be on the look out for pot holes and speed bumps and avoid them if you can!

[usedabused]

After a wile running static it becomes second nature and even find yourself doing it when in standart hieght cars..

[KenONeill]

@Jeggo Those bolts are too short like lots too short! You should always, whether you have nyloc nuts or normal ones, always have bolt threads (at least 2) protruding past the end of the nut away from the mating surface!

 

Also @usedabused Well, I've never driven a slammed car, and still try to drive round potholes, stank covers and the like when I can!

[Jeggo]

Yeah I didn't make myself clear. The first pic shows their bottom bolt they supply and the top one is standard felicia bolt. It was just to show what they included with the kit. 

This is how I actually bolted it up

 

I want to get some new bolts anyway as the only m10 bolts I had were fully threaded and it will be good to have shouldered bolts