NOISE

[GTD184]

VW are well and truly taking the pi$$ and getting away with it. Unfortunately and as proven in China unless enough owners complain, customers will simply be fobbed off with excuses. If VW will not address DSG issues so early into ownership do you really think they will be concerned in 2,3,4, or 5 years time??.....not a cat in hells chance!

 

The noise I am referencing is on my wife's 2017 Tiguan (DQ500). The noise is a inconsistent rotational metallic grating noise which appears predominately up to and during driving at 2,000 rpm, downshifting or in slow moving traffic. I have also noticed similar worn "bearing" sound during driving at constant 30-40mph. There is no noise under hard acceleration. This noise has been evident since 300 miles recorded, and at present it has 2,700 miles on the speedometer. At this moment in time there has been no reduction in noise although it has been noted that on occasion there is a sporadic audible noise which exhibits a sound similar to a mechanical pressure release valve.

 

 I uploaded a video on YouTube that my wife recorded on her iPhone during her drive into work one morning in August.......listen at 5 seconds, 35 seconds, 49 - 55 seconds, 1m 5 seconds - 1m 12 seconds, 1m 25 seconds - 1m 40 seconds, 1m 45 seconds - 1m 52 seconds and 2m - 2m 20 seconds

 

- Link - 

 

 

[Ootohere]

I think you are late to the party, reading others stuff and not getting the full picture, 

and mixing different issues.

There is the DQ200, there are TSI Engine Issues, there are Diesel Defeat Devices and the the Fix Issues, 

Pick which battle you want to join, if that is a DQ500 Fundamental Design / Manufacturing fault then good.

 

because there are plenty winning against the VW Group years after the Manufacturers Warranty has expired.

VW Group do not like Civil Courts, they can lose there, they do not want Civil Court rulings in England Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland.

 

I know they are concerned when a owners has an Independent Engineers Report and is ready to go to a court in England / Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland when it is the DQ200.

They will not defend themselves and can not put up some expert engineer to be questioned with the facts on failures.

 

So do not let them take the Pith get them to collect the vehicle or drop it off collect the like for like courtesy car and keep it until you have a vehicle fit for purpose.

 

Too many let the VW Group take the pith.  It is not necessary in the UK to have goods not fit for purpose.

There are Solicitors and lawyers that can cope very well with VW Group and then VW Group pay.

 

Sadly then Confidentiality Agreements are common, and it is each man or woman for their self.

Edited 11 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Hellblazer]

I was thinking about this and somehow the only complaints about noise are related with SUV's. Audi Q3/Q5, VW Tiguan, Skoda Kodiaq. 

There are many other VAG models with DSG DQ500, and I never heard complaints about the noise we have in our SUV's.

Now, would it be possible that, at least in most cases, the noise is not from DSG ? How about DMF ? And pm85 had his Kodiaq apparently fixed, check his last post.

I always assumed the noise had to be related with the drivetrain, but there are more vibrations at low rpm, which can cause some parts to rattle against each other, like with pm85 Kodiaq.

 

Last week my father was very angry with Nissan dealer, because his Nissan Qashqai had a serious rattle at very low rpm and dealer told him that there was no fix available and that the noise was normal. After some investigation, we found the rattle was located at the air intake pipes, which was a little loose and touched the chassis body. Some insulation tape and rubber pads later, the noise is gone. 

After searching for this problem in the internet I found out many Qashqai owners that couldn't get this problem fixed at the dealer and also Nissan doesn't seems to care about it.

 

After pm85 reported his Kodiaq was fixed, I am wondering if the noise has a simple resolution, like the Qashqai.

[pm85]

Hellblazer, either way, i think for the new car you have (Kodiaq). The dealer should be able to take it in and have a full inspection. My dealership in Brisbane (Australia) gave me a free skoda rapid to drive for the day as well. FYI Warranty is 5 yrs unlimited kms in Australia.

 

For others, my wife's previous car (MKVII GOLF 90 TSI) had DSG failure and VW fixed it, even when its out of warranty. We are covered by strict consumer laws which meant engine/gearbox should last a reasonable amout of time regardless of warranty period.  

Edited 11 January, 2018 by pm85

[Hellblazer]

10 minutes ago, pm85 said:

Hellblazer, either way, i think for the new car you have (Kodiaq). The dealer should be able to take it in and have a full inspection. My dealership in Brisbane (Australia) gave me a free skoda rapid to drive for the day as well. FYI Warranty is 5 yrs unlimited kms in Australia.

 

For others, my wife's previous car (MKVII GOLF 90 TSI) had DSG failure and VW fixed it, even when its out of warranty. We are covered by strict consumer laws which meant engine/gearbox should last a reasonable amout of time regardless of warranty period.  

The dealer done a road test and identified the noise. But they don't want to spend time looking for the solution, as I refuse to pay that time and Skoda warranty only pays if the problem is found and fixed. So, since they have reported a few cars with the same noise, they are waiting some information from Skoda, or so they say and are just expecting that I get used to the noise, which I won't.

 

Warranty in Portugal is 2 years unlimited km. I got a warranty extension to 5 years or 90.000km.

Edited 12 January, 2018 by Hellblazer

[Ootohere]

This kind of behaviour when reporting noises from customer services and Service desk / workshop technicians is too common.

As is the 'Waiting to hear from Skoda' nonsense.

Tell them your car is available, ready to diagnose the issues, they can even dismantle it.

they can take it to their Factory Technicians and diagnose your fault, and a new vehicle will be enough of a thank you.

 

 

[GTD184]

14 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

I think you are late to the party, reading others stuff and not getting the full picture, 

and mixing different issues.

There is the DQ200, there are TSI Engine Issues, there are Diesel Defeat Devices and the the Fix Issues, 

Pick which battle you want to join, if that is a DQ500 Fundamental Design / Manufacturing fault then good.

 

because there are plenty winning against the VW Group years after the Manufacturers Warranty has expired.

VW Group do not like Civil Courts, they can lose there, they do not want Civil Court rulings in England Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland.

 

I know they are concerned when a owners has an Independent Engineers Report and is ready to go to a court in England / Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland when it is the DQ200.

They will not defend themselves and can not put up some expert engineer to be questioned with the facts on failures.

 

So do not let them take the Pith get them to collect the vehicle or drop it off collect the like for like courtesy car and keep it until you have a vehicle fit for purpose.

 

Too many let the VW Group take the pith.  It is not necessary in the UK to have goods not fit for purpose.

There are Solicitors and lawyers that can cope very well with VW Group and then VW Group pay.

 

Sadly then Confidentiality Agreements are common, and it is each man or woman for their self.

Unfortunately UK consumer law (since 2015 revision, in particular car sales) is not on the side of the consumer, the onus is on the customer to prove there is a defect and don’t VW know how to exploit this reasoning!

 

Regardless of obvious noises, knocks, rattled, etc which indicate underlying component inefficiencies and defects VW will not remove components which in their opinion are not defective, neither will they accept vehicle rejection until they decide there is a defect discovered. 

 

legal intervention is so expensive that most owners of defective cars just live with the problem or off load them at a great financial loss.......and then there is the problem and difficulty sourcing ‘independent’, qualified and experienced engineers to put their neck on the block should a case go to court........and then there is the corruption and backhanders that enivitably goes on behind closed doors!!.........now would VW do that??

[GTD184]

10 hours ago, Hellblazer said:

I was thinking about this and somehow the only complaints about noise are related with SUV's. Audi Q3/Q5, VW Tiguan, Skoda Kodiaq. 

There are many other VAG models with DSG DQ500, and I never heard complaints about the noise we have in our SUV's.

Now, would it be possible that, at least in most cases, the noise is not from DSG ? How about DMF ? And pm85 had his Kodiaq apparently fixed, check his last post.

I always assumed the noise had to be related with the drivetrain, but there are more vibrations at low rpm, which can cause some parts to rattle against each other, like with pm85 Kodiaq.

 

Last week my father was very angry with Nissan dealer, because his Nissan Qashqai had a serious rattle at very low rpm and dealer told him that there was no fix available and that the noise was normal. After some investigation, we found the rattle was located at the air intake pipes, which was a little loose and touched the chassis body. Some insulation tape and rubber pads later, the noise is gone. 

After searching for this problem in the internet I found out many Qashqai owners that couldn't get this problem fixed at the dealer and also Nissan doesn't seems to care about it.

 

After pm85 reported his Kodiaq was fixed, I am wondering if the noise has a simple resolution, like the Qashqai.

 

My 2014 VW Golf GTD had to have its DSG replaced at 8,000 miles after repeated attempts to cure the poor gear selection and clunky gear take up, my GTD has never suffered from any uncharacteristic noises like my wife’s Tiguan has, although the gearbox fundamental components and design are very similar.

 

The selling dealer of my wife’s Tiguan has confirmed that the noise is emanating from the gearbox although the DEKRA engineer appears to believe it could be possibly the transfer box, which there has been documented issues with in other VAG products, namely due to lack of lubrication.

 

My opinion is the noise is definitely related to the gearbox.....and I would bet money on it!.......as previously mentioned VW know what the problem is (although declined to confirm) but know there will be no failure of major components until well into the ownership, by that time the owner will not be eligible to reject the car or have have sold the vehicle on.......or if out of warranty VW will be making money from repairs!.....they are in a win/win situation.

[GTD184]

10 hours ago, Hellblazer said:

The dealer done a road test and identified the noise. But they don't want to spend time looking for the solution, as I refuse to pay that time and Skoda warranty only pays if the problem is found and fixed. So, since they have reported a few cars with the same noise, they are waiting some information from Skoda, or so they say and are just expecting that I get used to the noise, which I won't.

 

Exactly my wife's experience with VW!

[andyvee]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:01, GTD184 said:

Unfortunately UK consumer law (since 2015 revision, in particular car sales) is not on the side of the consumer, the onus is on the customer to prove there is a defect and don’t VW know how to exploit this reasoning!

 

Regardless of obvious noises, knocks, rattled, etc which indicate underlying component inefficiencies and defects VW will not remove components which in their opinion are not defective, neither will they accept vehicle rejection until they decide there is a defect discovered. 

 

legal intervention is so expensive that most owners of defective cars just live with the problem or off load them at a great financial loss.......and then there is the problem and difficulty sourcing ‘independent’, qualified and experienced engineers to put their neck on the block should a case go to court........and then there is the corruption and backhanders that enivitably goes on behind closed doors!!.........now would VW do that??

Rubbish. Within the first 30 days it has been made much easier.

 

It is now easier to reject a vehicle than it ever used to be. I've quite easily rejected a Kodiaq for a rattle in the rear seat frame and picked up the new vehicle last weekend.

 

The problem is you obviously didn't know your rights and start the rejection process after the first failed fix.

 

Skoda made it very painless, and so did the dealership, who I stil have a good relationship with.

 

Don't get emotional, put it all in writing, stick to the facts, escalate to the highest level at Skoda UK and the only phrase you need is 'not of satisfactory quality'.

Edited 23 January, 2018 by andyvee

[GTD184]

17 hours ago, andyvee said:

Rubbish. Within the first 30 days it has been made much easier.

 

It is now easier to reject a vehicle than it ever used to be. I've quite easily rejected a Kodiaq for a rattle in the rear seat frame and picked up the new vehicle last weekend.

 

The problem is you obviously didn't know your rights and start the rejection process after the first failed fix.

 

Skoda made it very painless, and so did the dealership, who I stil have a good relationship with.

 

Don't get emotional, put it all in writing, stick to the facts, escalate to the highest level at Skoda UK and the only phrase you need is 'not of satisfactory quality'.

 

'Most' customers only become aware of the 30 day ruling when they discover an issue!......exceed the 30 day cutoff and it becomes that much more difficult to reject! 

 

There has never been an attempt to fix my wife's Tiguan as VW do not recognise the noise as a manufacturing defect......and that is why I have been embroiled in a dispute with VW!

 

My wife although aware of the grating noise in the drivetrain of her Tiguan withing 21 days of taking delivery did not notify the dealer until at 6 weeks once the complimentary first check was due. 

 

The difference between your issue and the issue that has affected a number of VAG DSG equipped vehicles is not remotely comparable. Skoda have accepted that there is a defect with the seat frame on your Kodiaq unlike the noise issue on my wife's Tiguan where VW are denying any liability. Half the battle is getting the manufacturer to accept there moral responsibilities, if they don't you then have a fight on your hands. Lucky for you your issue was straight forward and Skoda accepted the issue as a defect!

[Ootohere]

Moral responsibility!  from VW?   No you get them to accept a physical defect.  Manufacturing, materials,  workmanship.  Independent expert report if required, they can defend in court if they dare with their independent experts,  they can pay court costs, because they will not win. Not when there is a fault.

Edited 24 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[GTD184]

Getting VW to accept their moral responsibilities is easier said than done and that is why I have instructed Legal representation!.........and then there is the question of "defect", "fault" call it what you like, the finer details and interpretation of 'defect' in British law will always dictate, thus it is not always as straight forward as it appears!.

 

The motor Ombudsman stated "a noise emanating from any component on a car is not indicative of a breach of contract regarding the quality of the goods".............In the absence of definitive evidence i.e. a complete disassembly and confirmed causation of the noise there is no reliable evidence to state that the vehicle breaches contract as identified in sections 9-11 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which defines those implied terms of quality.

 

The point being that VW will not remove the Drivetrain as the noise is deemed a "characteristic" and "normal operation". If I appoint an independent engineer  (at great cost) to remove and disassemble the Drivetrain to define the noise source then the factory warranty becomes void and VW will refuse to accept rejection!

[Ootohere]

Some people seem to only have bad luck with VW, others know how to play them at their own game.   All the best with it,  at least in the future you might be proved right if the car is one you are keeping and you can get compensated,  just remember not to sign the confidentiality agreement and ignore telling us about it.  

[andyvee]

5 hours ago, GTD184 said:

 

'Most' customers only become aware of the 30 day ruling when they discover an issue!......exceed the 30 day cutoff and it becomes that much more difficult to reject! 

 

There has never been an attempt to fix my wife's Tiguan as VW do not recognise the noise as a manufacturing defect......and that is why I have been embroiled in a dispute with VW!

 

My wife although aware of the grating noise in the drivetrain of her Tiguan withing 21 days of taking delivery did not notify the dealer until at 6 weeks once the complimentary first check was due. 

 

The difference between your issue and the issue that has affected a number of VAG DSG equipped vehicles is not remotely comparable. Skoda have accepted that there is a defect with the seat frame on your Kodiaq unlike the noise issue on my wife's Tiguan where VW are denying any liability. Half the battle is getting the manufacturer to accept there moral responsibilities, if they don't you then have a fight on your hands. Lucky for you your issue was straight forward and Skoda accepted the issue as a defect!

Of course it becomes much more difficult to reject after 30 days as after that period it has to be proven to be a manufacturing defect. There is a reason you get a warranty - to cover things like this. You are right, my case is different in that there was an obvious fault - when the seat was stripped down it was identified that there was a defect in the seat frame - it wasn't rejected for a noise as such but for a manufacturing defect. If you had reported in the first 30 days then the clock would have stopped ticking until it was fixed. You could have refused to pick the car back up until the issue was addressed.

 

If VW won't accept it is a fault then you are snookered without an Independent expert. Of all the other cases you have read about how many of them have actually resulted in a failure of a component or a vehicle breakdown, anda t what kind of age/mileage?

 

TBH even if it is a fault you don't have grounds for rejection, but you do have grounds for it to be fixed under warranty. If you don't give them a fair chance to rectify you will struggle to reject anyway. The only reason I could reject is because parts were unavailable in a reasonable time frame, otherwise I would have had to accept a fix under warranty.

 

What do you actually want out of this - a rejection or a repair?

[GTD184]

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

If you had reported in the first 30 days then the clock would have stopped ticking until it was fixed.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

 

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

You could have refused to pick the car back up until the issue was addressed.

 

Investigations were ongoing so why would my wife refuse to collect her car?

 

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

If VW won't accept it is a fault then you are snookered without an Independent expert.

 

I appointed an independent expert (DEKRA) who concluded that the noise was unacceptable.

 

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

Of all the other cases you have read about how many of them have actually resulted in a failure of a component or a vehicle breakdown, anda t what kind of age/mileage?

 

My research has uncovered a few of a few MK 2 Tiguan's which have had DSG failures and many other VAG models affected..... Age and mileage are irrelevant factors if there is a inherent design or manufacturing defect!.......but to better understand the scale of failures and issues with this gearbox type just run a simple Google search.

 

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

TBH even if it is a fault you don't have grounds for rejection, but you do have grounds for it to be fixed under warranty. If you don't give them a fair chance to rectify you will struggle to reject anyway. The only reason I could reject is because parts were unavailable in a reasonable time frame, otherwise I would have had to accept a fix under warranty.

 

If a defect is discovered within the first 6 months the onus is on the dealer and manufacturer to prove that it was not present upon delivery, so a rejection can still be initiated. I have given the dealer and the manufacturer plenty of opportunity to undertake a repair which they have declined.

 

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

 

What do you actually want out of this - a rejection or a repair?

 

Initially my wife would have been content to accept a replacement. Unfortunately the longer her dispute has gone on the customer/business relationship has irrecoverably broken down. On that basis only a rejection and refund is acceptable. As customers we have purchased 1/4 £million of VAG cars from the same dealer franchise over the past 10 years!.........but not anymore!!

 

 

[andyvee]

I think you are going to struggle with this one TBH. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, so please don't take any of this personally. I used to work in a main dealer (not Skoda) for almost a decade so do have some experience of how these processes work.

• Your contract is with your dealer, so your rejection is with them, and you have admitted your relationship with them has irrecoverably broken down. That is not good. Have you put in writing to the dealer principal your intention to reject and your grounds for doing so and have they written back saying they do not accept your grounds for rejection?
• Your Independent expert has not identified a defect, but has expressed an opinion with no evidence to support this opinion. Another experts opinion may be that the noise is acceptable. In court, the question that would be asked is if it is reasonable or not for the noise to be present, and is it a reasonable assumption that the noise indicates a fault or defect. This would be very hard to prove as you say without the gearbox being dismantled, and even if the ruling is that it is reasonable to assume that the noise indicates a fault or defect then is the reasonable remedy a repair/replacement gearbox under warranty, or is it reasonable grounds for rejection?
• You have demonstrated by leaving it a number of weeks before reporting the noise that you didn't consider it important, not even important enough to ring the dealer and say you have an unusual noise and so do they think you should book it in now or leave it a month until your scheduled inspection. This will work against you unfortunately.
• The reason why you now deem it important enough to want to initiate rejection is through the power of Google and internet forums and a 'few' Tiguans that have had DSG issues. Unless you can get some cold hard facts on failure rates of the exact same gearbox as yours (DQ500) that have started from the same noise you are experiencing you will stuggle here. All VW have to do is demonstrate that the failures were for different reasons and your argument is blown away. The DQ500 is the strongest DSG box VW manufacture and is renowned as being bulletproof. Maybe an expert in these boxes such as TVS Engineering or a similar UK based DSG specialist could help you here.
• Are you trying to reject on the grounds of a perceived future failure of the gearbox, or because it has an unusual noise that the manufacturer deems normal and your expert deems abnormal and potentially a defect but cannot prove this. You need to be clear on this unless you can prove that the noise will lead to failure.
• What defect is present? Is a noise a defect?

My comment regarding refusing to pick the car up was in relation to if you had reported within the first 30 days - just throw the keys at them, jump in the loaner and ask them to call you when it is fixed and to take as long as they want about it.

 

I wish you all the best with this, I am glad I am not in your shoes as rejection can get nasty. If the vehicle is on finance I would log a case with VWFS regarding this as they own the vehicle, not you, as well as open a case with VW CS and ask for it to be escalated to the Executive Office immediately as your dealer is refusing to acknowledge what you think is a defect. Dealers sometimes backtrack rather rapidly when the big boys from Milton Keynes or Leeds ring them up and ask them what they are playing at. You could really throw the cat amongst the pigeons and get another VW dealer to acknowledge it as a fault.

 

I would only communicate in writing with any parties, but no doubt your legal team have already told you this, and ask for the history of all the times it has been booked in and copies of the technicians diagnosis. You never know, they may have slipped up and written something on a job card that you can use against them.

 

 

Good luck!

[GTD184]

I take on board your comments and can confirm I have to worked in the motor industry for 30 years so know how it operates. I have also explored all avenues to address this case and conclude it to a satisfactory outcome, including notifying VWFS and formal notification of rejection. The other parties are unwilling to address a genuine concern so I have no other alternative but to follow a lengthy, drawn out procedure.

 

The fact that the manufacturer has declined to confirm why the noise is evident and which component is responsible confirms that maybe in doing so would open up a can of worms and possibly result in further brand detriment which VW will avoid at all cost. 

 

You appear to have automotive knowledge coupled with a technical background so I do not need to convince you that a metallic grating noise emanating from a gearbox, regardless of manufacturer or type is unacceptable on a brand new car. Given that DSG gearboxes have a documented history of problems and failures which I have experienced in my Mk7 Golf GTD further confirms my concerns.

 

I have witnessed the only two communications between the dealer and VW Technical which is farcical to say the least. I would also add that the Brand manager confirmed that his company Tiguan he owned for 3 months did not exhibit any noise from the transmission but then concluded that the noise issue with my wife's car was a "characteristic" and "normal operation"! further more his master technician and assistant service manager had never witnessed the noise previously so had to refer the issue to VW Technical, so how could it be deemed "normal operation"? This dealer service department like many up and down the country would have access to hundreds of these cars day in day out, yet had never witnessed this noise previously so how can it be deemed "normal operation"?......you could not make this stuff up! 

 

It appears that as more and more of these cars come to market more concerns with DSG's are being reported which does not instil any confidence in the DQ500 that you consider "bulletproof"....try telling the owner of this Tiguan -; 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a sound recording of the noise issue as experienced on my wife's Tiguan -; 

 

 

Also have a read of this -; https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/6-Speed-DSG-Automatic-Transmission-Faults in particular under the paragraph "Noisy Bearings"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Very doubtful the VW Brand Director if that was who it was owned it for 3 months, that will have been another 'Management Car' that was getting 3,000 miles / 3 months use. Seeing how many hundreds or thousands of the few hundred VW UK employees have management cars VW UK punt.

So many with faults that seemingly the 'professional people' from VW never noticed had any issues as they used them.

Never topping the oil unless a Low oil light shows only to often.

 

So anyway lets hope the Skoda owners keep having more luck than VW ones seem to have.

Edited 26 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[andyvee]

If you consider the number of DQ500 boxes that have been manufactured in the last decade, and they have been fitted to the Transporter and other models that you could call 'commercial' and expected to carry more loads and do more miles, that is why they are generally considered bulletproof.

 

There will always be some failures, they are complicated devices and every component has a MTBF plus a very very low percentage points chance of early life failure.

 

You are correct though, if it is a characteristic, why don't all of them do it? This may be your best argument, get the Master Tech on the stand and ask how many others he has come across that make this noise.

 

Has your expert confirmed 100% that the noise emenates form the box, and not the diff or an inner CV joint? Would be very difficult to do unless they were in the engine compartment whilst you were driving? I have heard similar noises from faulty inner CV joints and differential bearings, which are a quick and easy fix. Has he ruled out the clutch packs?

 

The issue you have is that the dealer will only tell you what VW technical tell them to say. Ask for a copy of the job card from the time the technician admitted he had never witnessed the noise before. I don't know if that can be done under Data Protection laws - you have a right for a copy of data that a company holds about you, write to the Data Controller at the dealership and request it. Your legal rep should be able to advise if you get hold of it.

 

I agree, there shouldn't be a grating noise, but you are going to have to prove that equals a defect as the manufacturer has stated it isn't.

 

I can't see an easy way forward other than paying for the dealership to strip your gearbox with an independent expert present to witness and diagnose. The only issue with that is that dealerships don't do component level repair, they would just swap out an entire box under warranty as it is more efficient.

 

TBH you should be praying for the box to go bang, at least you can then turn round and say 'I told you so' - but again, the reasonable remedy would be a warranty replacement gearbox, not a rejection.

[GTD184]

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

If you consider the number of DQ500 boxes that have been manufactured in the last decade, and they have been fitted to the Transporter and other models that you could call 'commercial' and expected to carry more loads and do more miles, that is why they are generally considered bulletproof.

 

Nothing is infallible.....just look at the millions of DSG units recalled in 2013!.....I'm sure VW thought those units were "bulletproof" too?!

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

There will always be some failures, they are complicated devices and every component has a MTBF plus a very very low percentage points chance of early life failure.

 

Exactly!!....but VW do not like to and will not take responsibility for those failures until enough owners come forward!

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

You are correct though, if it is a characteristic, why don't all of them do it? This may be your best argument, get the Master Tech on the stand and ask how many others he has come across that make this noise.

 

There is a massive inconsistency so clearly VW need to address this concern.....their response to date is to decline to confirm why the noise is present, where the noise is emanating from and what component or assembly is responsible!......appears they have something to hide!

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

Has your expert confirmed 100% that the noise emenates form the box, and not the diff or an inner CV joint? Would be very difficult to do unless they were in the engine compartment whilst you were driving? I have heard similar noises from faulty inner CV joints and differential bearings, which are a quick and easy fix. Has he ruled out the clutch packs?

 

The dealer has discounted the CV Joints and believes it is the gearbox, the expert believes it is the transfer box. My research has uncovered history of failed transfer boxes due to insufficient lubrication from factory. I do not believe it is the differential although mechanical noises have a habit of resonating in completely different areas to where the noise appears to be. There is a possibility that the clutch packs could be responsible, which given the number of incidents reported would indicate a serious problem.

 

I picked up the following statement from a public website which appears to describe the issue with my wife's Tiguan which might explain why VW will not address the concern!

Noisy Bearings

The mechanical workings of the DSG—the physical gears and syncros—don’t tend to fail very often in my experience. I have seen a number of instances of bearings wearing down, however. This typically results in a metallic noise when driving.

I have known DSG transmissions with this symptom to be driven for quite some time with no ill-effects other than quite irritating driving noise, however I most definitely wouldn’t recommend you leave this problem unattended. If the mechanical components of the DSG did fail, it would be pretty catastrophic for the transmission.

The fix is a bearing kit, assuming the problem is dealt with promptly and no other damage has been caused."

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

The issue you have is that the dealer will only tell you what VW technical tell them to say. Ask for a copy of the job card from the time the technician admitted he had never witnessed the noise before. I don't know if that can be done under Data Protection laws - you have a right for a copy of data that a company holds about you, write to the Data Controller at the dealership and request it. Your legal rep should be able to advise if you get hold of it.

 

I totally agree with your comment, but the job card transcripts I have witnessed from VW technical indicate a difference of opinion amongst the VW technicians dealing with the dealer enquiry........the content of one response is nothing short of shocking!......and it is interesting but not surprising to see all VW departments covering each others arses!

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

I agree, there shouldn't be a grating noise, but you are going to have to prove that equals a defect as the manufacturer has stated it isn't.

 

You have answered your own question here "there should not be a grating noise"!!!........that is my belief, that of everyone who has driven the car and that of the expert!........in my opinion this is where this car falls short of being "of satisfactory quality"

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

I can't see an easy way forward other than paying for the dealership to strip your gearbox with an independent expert present to witness and diagnose. The only issue with that is that dealerships don't do component level repair, they would just swap out an entire box under warranty as it is more efficient.

 

The only way forward is for VW to provide evidence to the contrary!.....they have declined to do so to date.

 

On 26/01/2018 at 19:55, andyvee said:

TBH you should be praying for the box to go bang, at least you can then turn round and say 'I told you so' - but again, the reasonable remedy would be a warranty replacement gearbox, not a rejection.

 

My wife's famous words!......unfortunately she has not driven the car since May 2017. I take the car for a 30 mile run every 2 weeks to maintain battery charge and the braking system......her Tiguan has covered 2,700 miles in 11 months as she refuses to drive it with such poor refinement.

 

 

 

[McGyles]

On 29. 1. 2018 at 11:32, GTD184 said:

...her Tiguan has covered 2,700 miles in 11 months as she refuses to drive it with such poor refinement.

 

 

 

 

I completly agree that this noise is NOT a transmission "characteristic" and you should take steps to adress this  (dealer, importer, media, law firm, in that order), but to say that she refuses to drive due to such poor refiment, it's a VW you're talking about not a luxury brand. I would be more ashamed if i owned a MB GLC and it started tyre-skipping in public. And that actualy is characteristic because all have it, shame to see MB fall from grace in the last 20 years. Used to own many MB's, used to be best cars.

 

Get to the dealer, say that you want to have in writting that they have recorded the noise and that it's a "characteristic" and that they have no procedure to rectifiy this. Continue to drive the car normaly until you resolve the situation. If it breaks down due to transmission fault, you are covered by that dealer statement. It's a shame for a car to stay unused because at the end you're losing money. Use it or sell it.

 

You know what you can do. Take the car and get it evaluated. Point out the noise and when you get the evaluation report, see if they contribute the noise to a mechanical fault and lower the value. With that you have black on white that the "characteristic" noise decreases the value of your car and that you are eligible for a financial compensation.

[andyvee]

TBH rejecting an 11 month old car is always going to be an uphill battle to say the least, especially as nothing has failed and the dealer and manufacturer are saying that there is not a defect. Rejecting a vehicle on a perceived future failure is going to be very hard work.

 

As you have said, the Ombudsman has already said that a noise is not grounds for rejection.

 

I wish you all the best with this.

[GTD184]

16 hours ago, McGyles said:

I completly agree that this noise is NOT a transmission "characteristic" and you should take steps to adress this  (dealer, importer, media, law firm, in that order), but to say that she refuses to drive due to such poor refiment, it's a VW you're talking about not a luxury brand. I would be more ashamed if i owned a MB GLC and it started tyre-skipping in public. And that actualy is characteristic because all have it, shame to see MB fall from grace in the last 20 years. Used to own many MB's, used to be best cars.

 

The procedures you have pointed out have been followed. However, British law stipulates that if you complain about a faulty product and continue to use that product you are deemed to have accepted the product in its defect state, in that case you have no recourse for rejection.

 

Just because a VW is not a luxury brand does it mean that you have to accept poor refinement? A £44k car is hardly a cheap car and should resemble something remotely refined and free from what I consider major defects.

 

I am aware of the MB GLC "Characteristic" tyre skipping phenomenon as my wife was originally going to purchase one. My research discovered the defect you mention which was the basis for her not choosing the GLC although I believe there is a legal class action set up by GLC owners to address this concern in the courts at some point.  

[GTD184]

14 hours ago, andyvee said:

TBH rejecting an 11 month old car is always going to be an uphill battle to say the least, especially as nothing has failed and the dealer and manufacturer are saying that there is not a defect. Rejecting a vehicle on a perceived future failure is going to be very hard work.

 

As you have said, the Ombudsman has already said that a noise is not grounds for rejection.

 

I wish you all the best with this.

 

I have known cars being rejected some 18 months on due to delays with the legal process, so it is possible.

 

The bottom line is the car should not exhibit the noise, it does which in turn brings in to question the implied term "satisfactory quality".

• The independent engineer confirms the noise is unacceptable and will become progressively worse with use.
• Other owners worldwide are complaining about the same or similar Drivetrain issues.
• The manufacturer has declined to provide reasons for the noise or why the noise occurs and from what component
• Evidence from an engineer who has worked on DSG tranmissions commented of this so called noise "characteristic" - ;

  "I have seen a number of instances of bearings wearing down, however. This typically results in a metallic noise when driving. I have known DSG transmissions with this symptom to be driven for quite some time with no ill-effects other than quite irritating driving noise, however I most definitely wouldn’t recommend you leave this problem unattended. If the mechanical components of the DSG did fail, it would be pretty catastrophic for the transmission."

The latter statement is worth noting as it appears that VW know that the noise problem is and appears as described. They are making a commercial decisions to reduce costs (which is expected in light of the scandals VW are facing) hoping the transmission fails outside of warranty. 

 

With regards to your comment regarding the Ombudsman confirming that the noise is not grounds for rejection. This is incorrect. A noise can be grounds for rejection on the basis that the noise source can be confirmed as a defect. Unfortunately in this case the only way of identifying the causation of the noise is to disassemble the suspect components which can only be undertaken by the dealer due to the constraints imposed by the manufacturers warranty. It is a get out jail free card for both dealer and manufacturer which I intend to exploit by any means available to me to address this injustice. 

 

Thanks for your best wishes