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2011 1.2TSi DSG Oil Leak - head gasket gone?


Farley

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Hoping you can all help with a problem to OH's car - I have no engine knowledge. Bought new in 2011 and full dealer service history

So car was dealer serviced & MOT 2 weeks ago - went in with a small oil leak reported by wife.

Oil spotted on ground under car.

No mention of oil leak on service report!

Oil leak recorded on MOT.

Both reports by same engineer!

Nothing highlighted to wife during service/on collection of car.

Oil leak continued/worsened last week, so phoned and took car back.

Apparently the "head gasket has gone" - cue much shouting and frustration.

Dealer customer service non existent - surprising as they have serviced both our cars for 6years.

So no courtesy car, awaiting quote for repair this week.

Apparently car was ok for wife to drive home carefully for local use until fixed?

Wife said no - doesn't head gasket fail = cracked engine block if used?

Any suggestions/advice please.

Any known issues in this engine>

Thanks in advance.

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Did the car go in for servicing being perfectly OK then this happen?

 

DID THE TECHNICIAN SERVICE THE CAR AND NOT REPORT OIL LEAKS BUT THE MOT EXAMINATION DID?

HAD YOUR WIFE ASKED THE DEALERSHIP TO LOOK FOR WHERE THE OIL LEAK WAS?

EDIT. 

Sorry i now see you said, 'no mention of oil leak on service report' 

 

You need to be sure the correct Oil filter is fitted, & fitted correctly, no slap dash oil filling and spilling and messing up the engine,

 

Is the car at the garage now where you have to trust there word rather than have an independent machanic inspect and check?

 

Trust nobody and get this all discussed with the dealer principal, report carried out by the AA or RAC or someone from another motor group if possible.

Edited by Headinawayoffski
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How many miles has the car covered and has it been on Fixed Servicing so this was the 6th service by them?

 

Has the car had anywork on the Timing chain in the past 6 years?  The Update!

The casing / joint can leak if not sealed correctly when putting back together.

Edited by Headinawayoffski
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First, check the ccv valve has not broken off. This is a small plastic non return valve (about £16) plugged into the cam cover at the rear right hand top of the engine, looking from the front of the car. It is connected to the air filter box by soft rubber tubing. The hard plastic part that inserts into the cam cover often breaks off and so crankcase venting spills oil down the rear of the engine. When replacing, carefully try to retrieve the broken bit of hard plastic of the ccv still lodged in the rubber grommet in the cam cover. Don't just blindly push in a new ccv as that broken bit will be pushed free into the cam cover and has a high probability of ending being pulled between a cam and hydraulic tappet and causing valve/piston contact. Its item 21 in this diagram:-

 

http://www.oemepc.com/skoda/part_single/catalog/sk/markt/CZ/modell/FAB/year/2011/drive_standart/697/hg_ug/103/subcategory/103042/part_id/2541369/lang/e

 

(The ribbed bit breaks off, left behind in item 24 a soft rubber grommet located in the cover)

 

Second, if the timing chain has been changed (lots of pre 2012 engines required new timing chain kit fitted), its a good probability that the sump was not sealed correctly. As pointed out, it is a liquid rtv seal, that mechanics easily bugger up as it's tricky. It requires meticulous and  thorough preparation (removal of all old seal on sump and engine faces), skill in applying the correct amount and exactly where, correct mating at first attempt, correct sequence of  torquing and waiting for the seal to cure before filling with oil.

 

I would have thought a head gasket unlikely as this would first cause coolant loss and overheating.

Edited by xman
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Thanks for replies, I did think the gasket sounded unlikely.

Going to call them myself shortly.

Going to ask for all service history records to see what has been done,

 

is/was the chain/belt a recall issue or on a failure only basis?

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2 hours ago, xman said:

First, check the ccv valve has not broken off. This is a small plastic non return valve (about £16) plugged into the cam cover at the rear right hand top of the engine, looking from the front of the car. It is connected to the air filter box by soft rubber tubing. The hard plastic part that inserts into the cam cover often breaks off and so crankcase venting spills oil down the rear of the engine. When replacing, carefully try to retrieve the broken bit of hard plastic of the ccv still lodged in the rubber grommet in the cam cover. Don't just blindly push in a new ccv as that broken bit will be pushed free into the cam cover and has a high probability of ending being pulled between a cam and hydraulic tappet and causing valve/piston contact. Its item 21 in this diagram:-

 

http://www.oemepc.com/skoda/part_single/catalog/sk/markt/CZ/modell/FAB/year/2011/drive_standart/697/hg_ug/103/subcategory/103042/part_id/2541369/lang/e

 

(The ribbed bit breaks off, left behind in item 24 a soft rubber grommet located in the cover)

 

Second, if the timing chain has been changed (lots of pre 2012 engines required new timing chain kit fitted), its a good probability that the sump was not sealed correctly. As pointed out, it is a liquid rtv seal, that mechanics easily bugger up as it's tricky. It requires meticulous and  thorough preparation (removal of all old seal on sump and engine faces), skill in applying the correct amount and exactly where, correct mating at first attempt, correct sequence of  torquing and waiting for the seal to cure before filling with oil.

 

I would have thought a head gasket unlikely as this would first cause coolant loss and overheating.

 

how would i know if the sump was badly sealed? I've never had an independent inspection before - how common are these?

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1 hour ago, Farley said:

 

how would i know if the sump was badly sealed? I've never had an independent inspection before - how common are these?

 

It really has to go up on a ramp and remove the plastic under tray. Then a visual inspection in order to see where the leak is coming from. Above/below the sump, front back etc. If there's oil all over the place then it may be necessary to wipe/clean the engine then run it around and recheck.

 

A leaking sump is only likely if the sump had been removed, which is necessary in order to change the timing chain. At the same time you should check the timing chain cover for leaks, again sealed using the same sealant. Dig into the cars servicing / maintenance / warranty history, phone the servicing dealer, skoda uk etc. It should be on skoda's national computer especially if it was a warranty fix. Otherwise contact previous owner(s).  To remove the sump and timing chain cover requires removing the exhaust, radiator hoses and some other things IIRC.

 

If the timing chain was changed by a Skoda dealer and money changed hands, i.e. either paid for or a contribution paid for a warranty goodwill repair, then it would be covered by a 2year unlimited mileage warranty. So knowing the history is crucial.

 

Also forgot to say check if its not leaking from under the oil filter, easy to check yourself, the oil filter is right in front of you at top left of engine. Did you check the ccv? Again its easy, just follow the small bore hose from the top of the air box to the cam cover.

 

Edited by xman
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7 minutes ago, xman said:

 

It has to go up on a ramp and remove the plastic undertray. The a visual inspection to see where the leak is coming from.

 

Its only likely if the sump had been removed, which is necessary in order to change the timing chain. Dig into the cars servicing/maintenance/warranty history, phone the servicing dealer, skoda uk etc. It will be on skoda's national computer especially if it was a warranty fix.

 

Also forgot to say check if its not leaking from under the oil filter, easy to check yourself, the oil filter is right in front of you at top left of engine. Did you check the ccv? Again its easy, just follow the small bore hose from the top of the air hose to the cam cover.

 

 

Thanks, car is at dealer, wife was worried about driving if "head gasket gone" and making anything worse...

Seems less likely and could maybe drive it home and monitor oil - though I would like to view an inspection myself at dealer - just with the advice from here seems a logical place to start.

Still waiting for their repair quote and therefore the written diagnosis

 

Owned from new - no records of timing chain replacement in wife's records - will ask again though when they eventually call me (or i call them again!)

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11 minutes ago, Farley said:

Owned from new - no records of timing chain replacement in wife's records - will ask again though when they eventually call me (or i call them again!)

 

Then go out and pop the bonnet now and look at that ccv (crankcase ventilation valve) and see if its come adrift before doing anyhing else. And the oil filter.

 

I would get a second opinion before going down the head gasket route. Call in at another dealer or independent but dont mention head gasket, just let them diagnose it blind.

 

If you finally give in and let them change the head gasket, consider having the timing chain changed with the latest kit at the same time (see other threads on this forum for the part numbers, these are critical) especially if you have already ready experienced loud rattling noisy cold starts which indicates the chain is stretched.

Edited by xman
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By the way, having just had your car serviced, its quite common for "technicians" (young lads) to spill oil down the engine, either from removing the oil filter, or spilling when refilling the engine. They dont wipe it off, too much time and effort involved. Also, theres a possibility of oil leaking from the sump plug, if its not fitted properly.

 

Thats why a secomd opinion from another place might be important. If you knew what I have experienced and witnessed at some dealers. Nothing would surpise me and they are often only too willing to suggest expensive work be done without good reason.

 

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So just had the call from dealer...

 

Head Gasket, £1,005 quoted,

Apparently the leaking gasket is due/from the "oil gallery" feed to the cylinder head.

 

Does this seem feasible?

 

I thought the head gasket was coolant/water - but definitely oil also according to dealers?

They are certain this is the source of leak.

 

Could there be anything wrong under/inside more sinister?

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Perhaps one of the resident Skoda Techs could answer this, but I have a feeling that the oil feed to the top end, e.g. camshaft etc is supplied externally through some of that nest of stainless steel tubing, and the only oil galleries to pass though the head gasket are the oil returns to sump which are large, no pressure pathways. So a leak here would be unlikely.

 

I may be completely wrong though, I wonder if someone could draw the attention of one of the qualified techs.?....

 

 

Edited by xman
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Technician never included oil leak as a.mention in the report,  then a mot is done,  the leak was not a drip so the examiner does a emissions test, it passes and all you get is an advisory if that was what it was

 Something dodgy sounding all along.   How many miles has the car done?

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As far as I can tell by guessing at engine codes and viewing ebay/google pictures of head and block, the high pressure oil feed up into the head is as marked in these two pics.  See if that corner of the gasket/engine looks wet with oil, if you can see enough with all the clutter of a modern engine bay.

 

 

Oil up.png

TSI 1.2.png

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1 hour ago, Headinawayoffski said:

Technician never included oil leak as a.mention in the report,  then a mot is done,  the leak was not a drip so the examiner does a emissions test, it passes and all you get is an advisory if that was what it was

 Something dodgy sounding all along.   How many miles has the car done?

 

Never previously had any issues with this dealer servicing, but then no major faults either... Definitely think it was a poor/negligent service. Car did have leak before the service, but disappointed not spotted/looked at in service.

Car' done 38k, owned from new.

Going to get a 2nd (& maybe 3rd) opinion tomorrow, though both of these independent mechanics have fixed similar faults in the past they said. However, neither have seen it yet.

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Great stuff Wino. So looking at those pictures, the oil feed is at the front of the engine around / behind the oil filter. Should be pretty easy to see from above if there is a leak around there. And whether its from the head or filter / housing.

 

Just be aware that this is exactly the place where a sloppy mechanic will spills load of oil if removing the oil filter too quickly.

 

Has the car been losing oil / requiring regular top ups?

 

Edited by xman
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^^^ Was it enough that you had to put any oil in since the last service, and how many miles were covered from the last Oil & Filter change to this oil and filter change?

 

Is it 5w 30 Full Synthetic Long Life oil (VW504 00)  they charge you for,

and is it a Silver VW/Audi Oil Filter fitted?

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so the 2nd garage think the problem is a blanking plug in the casing, above the head gasket seal, on the exhaust side.

Perhaps a sensor is fitted here on other models?

 

Ordered and will replace tomorrow - the concern is if there is excess oil in this location due to another reason?

 

Any thoughts anyone?

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1 hour ago, Wino said:

Hmm, maybe just item 7 here?

 

That ought to cost considerably less than a grand (even with fitting and VAT!)

 

Yep, I hope so.

Yes that is what was described.

Seems a wipe down and light/mirror showed the leak was not from the gasket seal!

Maybe not the easiest part to reach/replace though?

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2 hours ago, Farley said:

Seems a wipe down and light/mirror showed the leak was not from the gasket seal!

Maybe not the easiest part to reach/replace though?

 

Good(ish) news, and if it really is the plug/washer (item 6/7)  might just need nipping up, but I suspect its a pig to get to and tighten.

The question is why would a oil blanking plug/washer start to leak? Not torqued up when built?  Not very likely I would have thought.

 

Its tucked up behind the oil filter housing so maybe its a bit premature to say its definitely that and not a nearby leak from the oil filter/housing/oil cooler, even the cam cover, timing chain covers in that area.

 

At least your 2nd garage looks as if they are more competent than the first. Good job you didn't just take the dealers word for it and forked out over £1000 for nothing (and not fixed the leak!)

 

Fingers crossed..

Edited by xman
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1 hour ago, xman said:

 

Good(ish) news, and if it really is the plug/washer (item 6/7)  might just need nipping up, but I suspect its a pig to get to and tighten.

The question is why would a oil blanking plug/washer start to leak? Not torqued up when built?  Not very likely I would have thought.

 

Its tucked up behind the oil filter housing so maybe its a bit premature to say its definitely that and not a nearby leak from the oil filter/housing/oil cooler, even the cam cover, timing chain covers in that area.

 

At least your 2nd garage looks as if they are more competent than the first. Good job you didn't just take the dealers word for it and forked out over £1000 for nothing (and not fixed the leak!)

 

Fingers crossed..

 

Yep, agree there may be more questions than answers at moment.

"IF" it is the blanking plug/o-ring - is there a good reason for oil to be in this area? Or is there something inside wrong/broken?

If it's one of the other suggestions,  the oil filter/housing/oil cooler, cam cover, timing chain covers in that area, what could be the cause.

 

Agree 2nd garage seem more careful to diagnose, but still worried there could be something more sinister to the cause?

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