Just driven a 150 DSG estate today. Not a brand new one,  but a 65 plate with 21k on the clock and 6 speed box. 

Tbh I couldn’t notice much difference with my 170 DSG S2   Maybe smoother and certainly less vibration under acceleration from30mpg upwards. 

Pretty much decided that I will go for 150 DSG in L&K spec and am confident this will tow the caravan nicely. 7 speed box should be better on economy too. Previously I’ve towed with 2 Passat 140 DSG and they were pretty good as I remember 

thanks everyone for your comments. 

Just to throw a spanner in the works I’ve just noticed the 4x4 is only £100 higher list price with only minimal drop in combined mpg figures. I’m assuming the 4 wheel drive only comes in when needed? 

With the caravan towing in mind I’m thinking it may make sense to go for 4x4 version of either L&K or SE L specification 

If you look closer at the price difference, that looks like it's for a 4x4 with a manual gearbox rather than the DSG, as the other 4x4 models state dsg next to the 4x4 and are £1500 more expensive.

Edited 23 October, 20178 yr by roo

Ypu can't get dsg and 4x4 with 150,you'll heve to get the 190 for that,and that is considerable price difference. 150 comes only with 4x4 or only with dsg,can't combine them. 

As far as 4x4 sistem,it doesn't just come on when it is needed,it is constantly there,sensors monitoring wheels,steering etc to know how much power is needed and where. It works briliantly,car is much better in the corners,it is really good adition for you as you are towing a caravan,and you get xds+ diffs on both axels (just like a golf 7 r) which is similar to torque vectoring(it imitates lsd diff by braking the inside wheel in the corner,sistem premiered in mk7 gti). After my first 4x4 car,there is no going back for me.

2 hours ago, fiki said:

Ypu can't get dsg and 4x4 with 150,you'll heve to get the 190 for that,and that is considerable price difference. 150 comes only with 4x4 or only with dsg,can't combine them. 

As far as 4x4 sistem,it doesn't just come on when it is needed,it is constantly there,sensors monitoring wheels,steering etc to know how much power is needed and where. It works briliantly,car is much better in the corners,it is really good adition for you as you are towing a caravan,and you get xds+ diffs on both axels (just like a golf 7 r) which is similar to torque vectoring(it imitates lsd diff by braking the inside wheel in the corner,sistem premiered in mk7 gti). After my first 4x4 car,there is no going back for me.

Just spotted that it’s an either or grrrr

back to 150 DSG L&K it is then 

On 23/10/2017 at 11:02, fiki said:

Ypu can't get dsg and 4x4 with 150,you'll heve to get the 190 for that,and that is considerable price difference. 150 comes only with 4x4 or only with dsg,can't combine them. 

As far as 4x4 sistem,it doesn't just come on when it is needed,it is constantly there,sensors monitoring wheels,steering etc to know how much power is needed and where. It works briliantly,car is much better in the corners,it is really good adition for you as you are towing a caravan,and you get xds+ diffs on both axels (just like a golf 7 r) which is similar to torque vectoring(it imitates lsd diff by braking the inside wheel in the corner,sistem premiered in mk7 gti). After my first 4x4 car,there is no going back for me.

Fiki,

Yes in essence you're right about the 4X4 system, however the steering has nothing to do with the 4X4 system.

XDS is the code for the electronic diff's, these function with both the ESC (Electronic Stability Control) & XDS (Electronic Differential Locks), whilst they are not true diff locks, they act as diff locks, that is to say, that on a LSD (Limited Slip Diff) or diff locks, as fitted to the likes of Land Rovers etc where the diffs are locked by limiting the drive to the wheel that is ,or has, lost traction, electronic diff lock does this by applying the brake to the wheel(s) that have lost traction.

 

As you've said, the 4X4 system is constantly there, however, in "normal" driving conditions the power split is approx 96% to the front wheels & 2% to the rear wheels (2% is lost/used by mechanical means). As the road conditions change the system will selectively transfer power from the front to the rear, thus giving the car the 4 wheel drive system & maximum split is approx 50% front & 45% to the rear (the additional 3% loss is within the Haldex (Electronic & hydraulic rear "diff" that transmits the power to the rear wheels) system.

 

The ESC system also uses the XDS in conjunction with the steering (steering angle & Yaw sensors) & braking (ABS & the ABS wheel speed sensors) by correcting understeer (running wide when cornering) or oversteer turning too tightly when cornering. Understeer  by  selectively braking the left front wheel (for Right hand drive cars) & the right front wheel (for left hand drive cars). Oversteer selectively braking the right front wheel (for Right hand drive cars) & the left front wheel (for left hand drive cars). This system pre dates the MK7 Golf, by a number of years.

I think we have a missunderstanding. What you are refering to as XDS is what VW calls EDL(electronic diff lock) and that works similar to diff lock on Land Rovers(locks one wheel and sends power to the other one,dor exhample if one wheel is on ice and other is on tdry it will send power to one with traction). XDS+ is something else,it aplies a bit of braking to inside wheels in corner,so it helps with cornering. I think that sistem does in fact predate mk7 gti,but the plus version was unveiled with mk7. I suppose it has some benefits over standard xds. Sistem does in fact work with esp(but is totally different to classic esp intervention which you described). And this sistem is included on front axle only if car is not equiped with 4x4.

And what do you mean steering has nothing to do with 4x4? Arent there some sensors that monitor steering input that work in  conjunction with haldex 4x4?

And i would recomend him to get progressive steering,it does make a difference.

1 hour ago, fiki said:

I think we have a missunderstanding. What you are refering to as XDS is what VW calls EDL(electronic diff lock) and that works similar to diff lock on Land Rovers(locks one wheel and sends power to the other one,dor exhample if one wheel is on ice and other is on tdry it will send power to one with traction). XDS+ is something else,it aplies a bit of braking to inside wheels in corner,so it helps with cornering. I think that sistem does in fact predate mk7 gti,but the plus version was unveiled with mk7. I suppose it has some benefits over standard xds. Sistem does in fact work with esp(but is totally different to classic esp intervention which you described). And this sistem is included on front axle only if car is not equiped with 4x4.

And what do you mean steering has nothing to do with 4x4? Arent there some sensors that monitor steering input that work in  conjunction with haldex 4x4?

And i would recomend him to get progressive steering,it does make a difference.

Hi Fiki,

 

No there are no steering sensors that input information to the Haldex unit, the haldex unit simply acts as the rear diff & transmits power, when appropriate, to the rear wheels.

 

In the UK Servotronic steering is speed sensitive (progressive steering as you call it), the sensors associated with steering:- Steering angle sensor, does what it says, senses how much the steering wheel is turned (left or right) from the straight ahead position, Lateral Acceleration sensor (commonly called the Yaw sensor) detects sideways travel, especially when cornering. ABS (Antilock Braking sensors) inputs wheel speed information. All these are connected to the ESC system, which as part of its function is to selectively brake either of the front wheels when understeer or oversteer is detected.

 

An electronic diff lock in a conventional diff does exactly that, it locks the diff so that the drive shafts turn at exactly the same speed, it does not & cannot lock individual drive shafts, this also applies to a LSD.

The VW group cars, Audi, VW, Seat & Skoda, use XDS as their electronic diff locks, it differs from the above, in so much as it does not lock the diffs but uses the braking system to lock the wheel(s) that have lost traction so that the power output of that diff (or haldex) goes to the wheel that has traction. It also acts in conjunction with the ESC when slip is detected by reducing the power output from the engine, otherwise known as Dynamic Traction Control

 

ESP, Electronic Suspension Programming was superseded by  ESC.

 

The same codes are used across the VW group cars for virtually all of the options/standard equipment, see the photo's of my car's attached Vehicle data sheet.

 

I was associated with VW group vehicles from 1971 to 2009, working for a company based in South London, that had, amongst other marques, 3 VW, 7 Audi, 1 Seat & 1 Skoda dealerships. I worked in all the VW group garages

Well,i read somewhere that from i think 3rd or 4th gen haldex sistem is "proactive",they say it monitors few things and can detect when slip will ocur,before it actually does. Is that true,i dont know. 

Sistem that i refer to (xds+) is also integrated in octavia vrs,it should help with fast cornering as it applies braking to inside wheels to "slingshot" you around the corner,so it is not the sistem that helps you get out of slipery driveway .

When this sistem is working you don't get any signals like when esc cuts in (yellow thing on dash and obvious intervention). It just makes the car go better through the corners.

I said esp in last post (i am used to that expresion) but i meant ESC(i have 2 stage one in my sportline,don't know why).

All in all,after driving 150 with 2wd,my 4x4 190 sportline feels like different car,so in my book that 4x4 is more than welcome.

Progressive steering (it is called that in skoda catalog in my country) is really nice,can get heavy at speed,very light when manouvering,deffinetly worth that 150 euro price.

The progressive steering also adds variable ratio to the steering, not just more or less assistance from servo.

Instead of three turns of steering wheel for max left to max right you only have two turns with the progressive steering Don't know the numbers exactly but it feels like when you turn the wheel 45° either way you have normal ratio and when you turn more the ratio increases - less input more movement.

And I think @fiki is right about the XDS braking inside wheel when doing sharp cornering. Also the XDS+ system is a mechatronic add-on unit reminding somewhat of the haldex system but are only connected to front wheels.

GeorgeB, 

ESP  =  Electronic Stability Programme.    ( Braking force, a safety measure. nothing to do with suspension.)

 VW Group were one of the last Manufacturers that had it as standard on smaller cars just before in became a EU requirement.

It was still an option on many cars from them early this decade.

 

?

Why would VW have ESP to mean  "ESP, Electronic suspension programming "  as in your post?

http://carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/153818/what-is-esp-on-a-car 

 

Too much gets lost in translation with the VW Group. like the ESP, ESC, TC, ASR, EDL, XDS & XDS + , Some just brakes being nipped and need switching off to get traction to get out of Snow or on Ice.

Then there are LSD type functions, electronic not mechanical, and even these can need switching off when the situation / conditions need it.

As to XDS, that disables it's self when it overheats, which is highly likely with OEM brake fluid and a few laps at a Track Day.

Edited 25 October, 20178 yr by Headinawayoffski

@Baverhanne Oh yeah,you can get through 90 degree turn with just a quarter of turn,it is really good. 

XDS+ is normally connected to front wheels,but if car has haldex 4x4, XDS+ is connected to both front and rear wheels. 

On 14/10/2017 at 20:39, GeorgeB said:

Hi Kevin,

 

I have a 2016 190ps SEL EX DSG 4X4 Estate (Ex Skoda car, bought used). When I test drove it I found that the throttle response was awful! (even in sport mode) I convinced the dealer to carry out the re-set? of the throttle, that is to say in the engine ECU go to acceleration & change the last to digits of the binary from 01 to 10 & manufacturer from VW, Seat Skoda to Audi (this mod is well documented in the forum) & as it's already a code in the ECU it will not affect the vehicles warranty. If your dealer won't do it find out where your "local" VCDS owner is & I'm sure they'd do it for you for a minor consideration.

 

I also tow a 1550kg caravan, & can confirm that the 190ps is far superior to my previous car a 2015 Citroen C4 Picasso Manual 2lt 150, I found that the 150's performance when towing could only be described as "Adequate" but with the 190 its "sparkling"! & not to the detriment of fuel economy! In fact towing it's much better, with the 150 I used to get 23/24mpg towing & solo 53/54mpg

 

With the 190, Solo I average 49ish, but on a long run that'll creep up to around 53mpg. Towing I average 27 to 29mpg.

 

Can't comment on the 170 as I've never driven one.

Getting back to the original topic.... I test drove both 150 and 190 and really couldn't see that much difference but also towing a caravan I was moving towards the 190 with it's greater torque. However I wasn't buying new so it was a case of waiting to see what was available. I ended up, 12 months ago, with a 190 4x4 DSG, like GeorgeB's it was ex-Skoda . I've been pleased with it but I reckon it is a little bit gruffer on acceleration and on certain occasions there is some vibration but nothing much. However like GeorgeB I was disappointed with throttle response so found a local VCDS owner and did the Audi mod and the difference was startling. It will just pootle along if I want it to but just get even a little bit heavier with the right foot and it really takes off.  It has really surprised many of my friends who have, they would say, much sportier and more upmarket cars. I would also agree with GeorgeB's fuel consumption figures. What the Audi mod would do to a 150 I don't know. As far as colour is concerned mine looks gorgeous in Black Magic ....... for about 2 days given our weather! It shows up every little bit of muck and dust so if you're not keen on car cleaning, and I'm not,  silver would be better.

I've had my 190 DSG L&K for nearly a year now. I do understand the throttle mapping issue. I flick the box into sport quite a lot, but once there it is rather good.

OverallI think it's a great engine. Once past the initial laggy throttle opening it feels decently powerful. I say this having come from a Jaguar XF 3 litre diesel with twin turbos (needed more room for dogs and grown kids).

I didn't do 4x4 because it pushed the car out of the £30 tax bracket.  I'm an "enthusiastic" driver but it still gives an overall average of about 46mpg over a mix of roads.  Tend to do regular long motorway trips on which the engine works really well at sustained proper speeds with plenty of reserve for quick boosts when needed.  Add the L&K kit (with quite few extras) and it makes for a great long distance cruiser.

I only miss the crazy power in the Jag every now and then, but wouldn't want any less than the 190 gives me.

 

Anyone in/near North Hants able to do the Audi throttle mod ??

Edited 25 October, 20178 yr by Nicks951
spelling

Can fiddling with that audi setting cause some problems? Errors or warranty? Probably dumb question but i need to ask.

2 minutes ago, fiki said:

Can fiddling with that audi setting cause some problems? Errors or warranty? Probably dumb question but i need to ask.

Hi Fiki,

 

Firstly, I stand corrected re the XDS+, seems I've been retired for too long! Interesting option though?

 

Anyway, getting the acceleration parameters changed, by either a dealer using the 5051/2 or someone with a VCDS, WON'T cause any problems, I'm 10,000 miles (16093km) down the line from when I had it done & so far so good, not a single hiccup! & NO it will not affect the warranty, as it's not a remap in any sense of the word.

 

The engine ECU, which holds the acceleration data, is a multi VW group product & the Audi acceleration data is already in-bedded in the ECU as standard, all the "modification" entails is changing the last 2 digits of the acceleration binary code from 01, to 10 & then changing the manufacturer from VW Seat Skoda to Audi & hey presto job done! & the car now thinks its an Audi sports (quite possibly the 1st generation Audi TT 185 bhp).

 

You will not believe the difference, to use a phrase we in the UK use...it goes like "**** off a shovel" or put more politely...like a scalded cat..it really, but really shifts! even in ECO mode! & if like me you like saving fuel (here in the UK the cheapest diesel is around 1.28 euros per litre!!!!) don't use the kickdown by flooring the accelerator, use the paddles or gear selector to drop 2 gears & then accelerate away.

 

for confirmation, read SandaSteve's post, 2 posts prior to your last post.

@GeorgeB I knew we missunderstud each other,glad we cleared it up. Interesting sistem indeed,very noticable on turn in,if you go faster than you should you feel that something helped you (somehow i feel like understeer should follow,but it doesn't). 

I guess i'll find someone with vcds than,maybe in local skoda community (funny story,high spec skoda is a family guy's dream around here,as new cars are luxury,and 36000 euro superb is considered fancy). And this engine package (190 dsg 4x4) is same price as the 280,but is much,much more frequently bought(280 are very rare,and will probably be a nightmare to sell). Originally i planned on getting 280,but ended up with diesel because my 18yo son likes to drive it (although he has his car,but he was thrilled about new superb) and i wasn't comfortable with giving him that power (and i am more than happy with 190s performance,even more than i need).

When i go for overtake i generally just pull left shift paddle,perfect revmatch downshift follows,revs are now where they should be and i just pull away,effortless (thanks to torque it doesn't need more than half throttle in most casses). 

I noticed dsg mostly pulls quite high gears,car is driving at around 1200 rpm very often,so it has half throttle dead,and than when you push 5mm more it downshifts and goes faster than you wanted. S mode mostly resolves this "problem". I am blown away how good paddleshifts (manual gear selection) works,its instant,very intuitive and car feels very powerful(because of torque). And it pulls quite high for a diesel,real go is 3000 rpm and above. 

On 23/10/2017 at 06:50, Superb170 said:

To echo the above comments, I had two 170tdis and went to a 150.  The power difference is not noticeable IMO and the 159 is the natural replacement for the old 170.  Have driven the 190 and if you need to run it on an autobahn or similar where you’re driving inexcess of 70/80 mph on a regular basis then there is some merit in the 190, as the 150 probably starts lacking a bit above that speed otherwise 150 is the way to go.  Has less noticeable vibration too.

I’ve now driven a 190 Dsg sport line and a 150 DSG Se L ( but only 6 speed ) and I’m now totally back to starting point. 

I didn’t find the 190 noisy as some posters have suggested, a bit sporty sounding maybe. The 150 did seem similar to my S2 170 DSG 

i think it’s really down to whether I want the bigger engine power in SE L spec or the goodies the 150 L&K comes with as standard. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t ! Lol 

I’m sure whichever one I plump for will be a great car but I guess I will always wish I went for the other one. 

Edited 29 October, 20178 yr by kevin defty

Take the L&K one.

4 hours ago, TTodorov said:

Take the L&K one.

I’m pretty sure the 150 L&K will be my final choice. Things like blind spot detection canton and dcc will sway the decision I think. Too many posters are doubting the  extra cost of the 190 engine and the additional power. 

For me the extras will make more difference in the overall satisfaction, than the engine.

However I have to admit that 1.4 TSI was faster than mine 2.0 TDI 150hp O3 in a flying start 60 to 140 - one/two cars ahead.

26 minutes ago, TTodorov said:

For me the extras will make more difference in the overall satisfaction, than the engine.

However I have to admit that 1.4 TSI was faster than mine 2.0 TDI 150hp O3 in a flying start 60 to 140 - one/two cars ahead.

When I test drove the 150 it felt similar to my 170 in acceleration so I’m pretty sure it will suffice. 

Hi, interesting reading. Is anyone near Leeds/Wakefield that can do the Audi pedal mod and turn on street sign recognition please?

When I was choosing last April/June I thought I'd spotted the bargain kevin had for a brief moment. I was going for the 1.4TSI DSG but thought hang on.... then realised the 150PS was manual only.

 

I had the 170PS VW diesel in a Passat CC manual for 3 years and it was much better than the 140PS. I test drove various newer VW group cars with the 150PS engines and they were good. I actually went for the 170PS without driving a manual version because the 140PS manual lacked 'oomph' on the motorway without changing down from 6th. I put that down to torque. The 150PS has better torque characteristics.

I ended up with a 190 DSG L&K and I'm very happy with it. But if it had been a choice like you have, I'd go 150 L&K, rather than 190 in a lower spec, unless I was planning on towing. As noted above, unless you are hauling a lot of weight the 150 is more than capable in normal circumstances, and the L&K refinements are way more important to me than the extra power. Re fuel economy, I'm getting a maxi-dot average of low 50s MPG on my 150 mile round trip commute (almost all motorway / fast A road). I suspect the 150 will get nearer to high 50s.