3 hours ago, penguin17 said:

 

Thanks for the response Rainmaker, I was hoping to get your take on this.  Of all the people I expected to help me pick the 220 you and @freelunch have let me down and pointed me at the 280!  You obviously know your onions when it comes to driving; I've never had 4x4 before and often think that it's misinterpreted as giving more grip when in fact grip is dictated by footprint of those 4 little rubber things at each corner of the car, traction is another matter.  What, in the real world, will I appreciate about 4x4? The biggest benefit I can foresee is poor weather, conditions on rural roads.  4x4 and all-season tyres would be a boon in that respect. 

 

I've posted above regarding the options I'd like to carry over to another Superb.  Out of all of them, I'd lose the electronic boot but the others I find work for me and are worth it (if I can keep them)

 

 

 That's good to know, thanks.  TBH I'm already gonna take a hit on 20-30mpg so another ~5 isn't gonna kill me.  This is a heart over head change.  

 

Sorry to have disappointed, but I'd rather tell you the truth. For the advantages of the extra driven wheels where required, I'd point you back to traction off the line / out of junctions more than anything. That's a big reason why the AWD/4x4 cars have better 0-60 times than their two wheel drive compatriots - better initial traction and go. It may sound minor but on wet, greasy British roads it's a fairly ongoing requirement day after day. In lower powered cars, or cars with better tyres and geometry, it's not so bad. I have to say though the 220 Superb is pretty woeful at times (exiting junctions at an angle with throttle, on damp/wet/greasy roads I mean, not in general!). So much power, poor wheels and suspension, a 'wobbly' gearbox (see the dogbone insert threads) and it's a recipe for slip. The 280 just powers away without drama and you're already half way down the road while I'm still cursing the 'blasted thing' and getting the wheels straight while I gingerly feed in power.

 

As you say, the rest of the time there's not so much in it. All things being equal, 4x4/AWD can give you better initial traction in ice and snow. Things are rarely equal, however, and good all season or winter tyres on even a powerful RWD car will leave a summer tyre shod 4x4 standing. Don't forget, 4x4 in itself can get you going easier in adverse conditions, and even carry more speed, but it sure as heck doesn't stop you any quicker... Hence all those photos of Jeeps/Land Rovers/X5s upside down in ditches in winter 'mayhem' news stories!

 

As for your options list, it's a very individual thing. Personally out of that list I'd only really want the heated front screen and TSR, and even they'd be  'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. Some 75% isopropyl alcohol to 25% water in a cheap sprayer eats ice off your glass in seconds and costs buttons. Would I rather have a heated front screen? Certainly. Would it be a deal breaker?  No, else I'd currently be in a heated 2,0 150ps diesel with L&K trim. :p Canton does nothing much for me as I'm hard of hearing, but I appreciate that's my downfall and may be a massive uplift for other people. Heated jets? What about the pipes, pump and storage bottle? It's a hard pass from me, with appropriate -30 screen wash from about September onward to be safe. Electric boot - again, nice to have but also needless added unsprung weight and something else to pay a bomb for when the warranty expires and it inevitably goes all 'French electrics' on you... You get the idea.

 

I realise most don't hold my personal philosophy on car spec, but I'd be just as happy with base spec, large petrol engine, manual box, rear or AWD, small wheels and largeish tyres, good suspension and pretty much everything else optional (and mostly unticked). Alas you'd be hard pressed to find such a beast these days.

I too have had the dilemma of a 220 v 280.  I was originally looking at a SEL, Sportline and an L & K spec.  Then I had the task of matching to a power plant, either 220 or 280

 

I tried an SEL and found the seats too hard, I liked both the Sportline and the L & K.  The deciding factor was I fancied a "wolf in sheeps clothing" look and the additional toys of the L & K.  

 

Then I tried both the 220 and the 280 engines.  Simply the 220 is a cracking engine and all you need, in normal driving and licence loosing speeds, it is plenty quick enough.  Didn't get a chance to provoke the car in the wet to see if wheelspin was an issue.  Always dry test drives.  Great engine and car. Simples.

 

Then I tried a 280 (twice) on extended test drives.  Normal driving, same performance.  Can't say that I found anything in it to be honest.  With the window down, 280 makes a nice noise which was lacking on the 220.  I of course like the exposed tailpipes, they do look good.  Plus point.

 

The 280 matches the 220, then when you slip into sport mode and give it some beans there is a difference then.  The 280 just simply goes off into the distance and not many everyday cars can live with it.  I had the 280 in France up to 3 figure speeds and it is just ballistic, serious motor car and engine.    

 

I do about 8k a year and decided that the 4 wheel drive, bigger brakes (ventilated at the rear) and more power was worth the extra cash.  I have never looked back to be fair.  I love this car.

 

I am considering mapping mine to 350

 

If it was to go tomorrow the only car (if I had the money) would be an RS6.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, RGKTSi said:

I too have had the dilemma of a 220 v 280.  I was originally looking at a SEL, Sportline and an L & K spec.  Then I had the task of matching to a power plant, either 220 or 280

 

I tried an SEL and found the seats too hard, I liked both the Sportline and the L & K.  The deciding factor was I fancied a "wolf in sheeps clothing" look and the additional toys of the L & K.  

 

Then I tried both the 220 and the 280 engines.  Simply the 220 is a cracking engine and all you need, in normal driving and licence loosing speeds, it is plenty quick enough.  Didn't get a chance to provoke the car in the wet to see if wheelspin was an issue.  Always dry test drives.  Great engine and car. Simples.

 

Then I tried a 280 (twice) on extended test drives.  Normal driving, same performance.  Can't say that I found anything in it to be honest.  With the window down, 280 makes a nice noise which was lacking on the 220.  I of course like the exposed tailpipes, they do look good.  Plus point.

 

The 280 matches the 220, then when you slip into sport mode and give it some beans there is a difference then.  The 280 just simply goes off into the distance and not many everyday cars can live with it.  I had the 280 in France up to 3 figure speeds and it is just ballistic, serious motor car and engine.    

 

I do about 8k a year and decided that the 4 wheel drive, bigger brakes (ventilated at the rear) and more power was worth the extra cash.  I have never looked back to be fair.  I love this car.

 

I am considering mapping mine to 350

 

If it was to go tomorrow the only car (if I had the money) would be an RS6.

 

 

 

Thanks.  There's a trend developing here, the 220 is good the 280 is better.  If possible get the 280...

 

 

36 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

 

Sorry to have disappointed, but I'd rather tell you the truth. For the advantages of the extra driven wheels where required, I'd point you back to traction off the line / out of junctions more than anything. That's a big reason why the AWD/4x4 cars have better 0-60 times than their two wheel drive compatriots - better initial traction and go. It may sound minor but on wet, greasy British roads it's a fairly ongoing requirement day after day. In lower powered cars, or cars with better tyres and geometry, it's not so bad. I have to say though the 220 Superb is pretty woeful at times (exiting junctions at an angle with throttle, on damp/wet/greasy roads I mean, not in general!). So much power, poor wheels and suspension, a 'wobbly' gearbox (see the dogbone insert threads) and it's a recipe for slip. The 280 just powers away without drama and you're already half way down the road while I'm still cursing the 'blasted thing' and getting the wheels straight while I gingerly feed in power.

 

As you say, the rest of the time there's not so much in it. All things being equal, 4x4/AWD can give you better initial traction in ice and snow. Things are rarely equal, however, and good all season or winter tyres on even a powerful RWD car will leave a summer tyre shod 4x4 standing. Don't forget, 4x4 in itself can get you going easier in adverse conditions, and even carry more speed, but it sure as heck doesn't stop you any quicker... Hence all those photos of Jeeps/Land Rovers/X5s upside down in ditches in winter 'mayhem' news stories!

 

As for your options list, it's a very individual thing. Personally out of that list I'd only really want the heated front screen and TSR, and even they'd be  'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. Some 75% isopropyl alcohol to 25% water in a cheap sprayer eats ice off your glass in seconds and costs buttons. Would I rather have a heated front screen? Certainly. Would it be a deal breaker?  No, else I'd currently be in a heated 2,0 150ps diesel with L&K trim. :p Canton does nothing much for me as I'm hard of hearing, but I appreciate that's my downfall and may be a massive uplift for other people. Heated jets? What about the pipes, pump and storage bottle? It's a hard pass from me, with appropriate -30 screen wash from about September onward to be safe. Electric boot - again, nice to have but also needless added unsprung weight and something else to pay a bomb for when the warranty expires and it inevitably goes all 'French electrics' on you... You get the idea.

 

I realise most don't hold my personal philosophy on car spec, but I'd be just as happy with base spec, large petrol engine, manual box, rear or AWD, small wheels and largeish tyres, good suspension and pretty much everything else optional (and mostly unticked). Alas you'd be hard pressed to find such a beast these days.

Thanks again, wise words and much appreciated.

 

The more I look the more I realise that I may just forego some of my 'must have's' in order to get into the 280.  I'm going to contact a few dealers tomorrow and see what's available for a test drive.   

1 minute ago, penguin17 said:

Thanks.  There's a trend developing here, the 220 is good the 280 is better.  If possible get the 280...

 

 

I think you have nailed it @penguin17

All I would say, try both for an hour, slip into sports mode and give it the beans to say 70 on a motorway, dual carriage way etc.  You will feel the extra pull from a 280.  Sounds great as well.  4 x 4 is the icing on the cake.

I have slipped into sports mode at the lights on dual carriage ways.  Been wet, give it some and it just hooks up and goes.  No drama at all.  Not even a flickering of a traction control light.  What a machine.  Then you can just pootle around with it and nobody really knows whats under the bonnet unless you are being followed by a fellow Briskodian.

Somebody said to me after I got the car back in the middle of March last year, "but its only got 6 gears in the DSG".  Trust me, it only needs 6.  DSG better suited to the petrol engine than a diesel IMHO.

Why not consider the SEL spec 280 since it will already have some of your must have features and the others can be added and still be under the Sportline price. When ordering my 280 I realized you could spec the SEL with the same spec as the Sportline or L&K for less than buying the higher spec car. The only difference was with Sportline seats and suspension but could add DCC for still under Sportline price which goes someway to getting that.

1 hour ago, PSM said:

Why not consider the SEL spec 280 since it will already have some of your must have features and the others can be added and still be under the Sportline price. When ordering my 280 I realized you could spec the SEL with the same spec as the Sportline or L&K for less than buying the higher spec car. The only difference was with Sportline seats and suspension but could add DCC for still under Sportline price which goes someway to getting that.

It has to be the Sportline   I just really like the black accents to the exterior, the Vega wheels and the seats are lovely.  It's got a slightly aggressive look but still quite conservative, a nice medium and just enough IMO. 

 

 

I've got a 280 sportline with front and rear sensors, camera, variable floor and spare, load net,  boot release, heated front and rear seats heated screen and squirters and TSR. Oh, and a towbar. That lot comes in just under around 39k so not much more would put me into silly road fund licence. 

 

Obvs I am not paying 39k for it but the RFL is on list price not payed price.

 

I've test driven a 190 diseasel, 220 and a 280. Not much to tell between them in normal driving but if you open the taps at any point the 280 never managed to run out of composure before I ran out of talent....

 

I can easily wheelspin my current 2.0t petrol Vectra in the damp and out of junctions and that is 172ps and has TC and ESP. Thats what put me off the 220 with just FWD. 

 

Its actually at the dealers now. Its very hard to stick to the original plan and collect in March,  but so far I am resisting :-)

On the 220 and wheel spin: The first time I experienced the bang of wheel spin was on my test drive. (Quick acceleration whilst turned hard over.) I'd read about it here, so was not alarmed. Then once after purchase, I got wheel spin in a straight line in the wet.

 

I have since added a PedalBox+, which gives much more sensitivity to throttle input and from the instant you touch the pedal, not an inch down like standard. As a result, you can feed in the power gradually, but still quickly. I've not had wheel spin since. I'm not even going to bother with the dogbone insert.

 

I drove my 220 in the inch of snow we got in London a few weeks ago. The back roads, where I park, took some care to navigate, but there was never any question that the Sportline was going to cope with a bit of snow and 8K-mile-old P7's.

9 hours ago, edwards said:

 

Its actually at the dealers now. Its very hard to stick to the original plan and collect in March,  but so far I am resisting :-)

 

So you're offering me a test drive of yours before it's registered?  Thanks, too kind. 

So overnight I've been thinking about this a lot more and I've decided that if I can't afford to swap now then I'll wait until later in the year when I'll have the extra cash to do so.  I'm gonna hold out for a 280. 

 

I don't think I'd be disappointed with a 220, far from it; I just have a feeling I'd still hanker after the 280 and kick myself for being impatient.   

 

I have a friend and colleague who has always hankered after a RS6 Avant.  He simply couldn't afford one (well not a nearly new one with the spec he wanted).  He ended up with a well spec'd 3.0 TDI and tuned it, he still didn't scratch his itch yet still couldn't afford the RS6.  He factory ordered a 3.0 BiTDI and it's a lovely car with plenty of performance but sadly after less than 2 years he's now looking for his RS6 Avant.  I can't believe how much he's  lost in depreciation and VAT.  He could have bought the RS6 and covered his initial running costs based on what it's costing him to get out of finance deals each time.   I think I'd be the same but just with Prosecco taste, rather than champagne 

Edited 12 January, 20188 yr by penguin17

25 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

 

So you're offering me a test drive of yours before it's registered?  Thanks, too kind. 

 

Dont thrash it too hard :-)

If they offered the 220 with 4 wheel drive, I suspect they wouldn't sell many 280s....  My only fault of the 220 is traction.

Edited 12 January, 20188 yr by dg360
clarity

2 hours ago, penguin17 said:

So overnight I've been thinking about this a lot more and I've decided that if I can't afford to swap now then I'll wait until later in the year when I'll have the extra cash to do so.  I'm gonna hold out for a 280. 

 

I don't think I'd be disappointed with a 220, far from it; I just have a feeling I'd still hanker after the 280 and kick myself for being impatient.   

 

I have a friend and colleague who has always hankered after a RS6 Avant.  He simply couldn't afford one (well not a nearly new one with the spec he wanted).  He ended up with a well spec'd 3.0 TDI and tuned it, he still didn't scratch his itch yet still couldn't afford the RS6.  He factory ordered a 3.0 BiTDI and it's a lovely car with plenty of performance but sadly after less than 2 years he's now looking for his RS6 Avant.  I can't believe how much he's  lost in depreciation and VAT.  He could have bought the RS6 and covered his initial running costs based on what it's costing him to get out of finance deals each time.   I think I'd be the same but just with Prosecco taste, rather than champagne 

 

FWIW I think that's a sound decision, even just from  a psychology point of view. If you went 220, you'd always wonder. Well, that is how I justified the 280 to the missus! That said, I'll probably keep this for 10 years (I've had the Vectra for 13 years!) so I want to get it right. Better to have power and not need it than vice-versa.

 

 

3 hours ago, penguin17 said:

I have a friend and colleague who has always hankered after a RS6 Avant.  He simply couldn't afford one (well not a nearly new one with the spec he wanted).  He ended up with a well spec'd 3.0 TDI and tuned it, he still didn't scratch his itch yet still couldn't afford the RS6.  He factory ordered a 3.0 BiTDI and it's a lovely car with plenty of performance but sadly after less than 2 years he's now looking for his RS6 Avant.  I can't believe how much he's  lost in depreciation and VAT.  He could have bought the RS6 and covered his initial running costs based on what it's costing him to get out of finance deals each time.   I think I'd be the same but just with Prosecco taste, rather than champagne 

 

I do this with hi-fi gear. Always searching for the unobtainable sound, ignoring that fact that at 70 my hearings probably shot! 

Anyway, much cheaper than jonesing on cars.

Edited 12 January, 20188 yr by freelunch

You could also look up some VW Golf forums and search for R vs GTI threads, kinda the same discussion.

220 is a great car but was never an option for me. As other have said the traction offered by all wheel drive is very handy. I said when I had my Scout that i'll not go back if I could help it. As for performance.... Yeah the 220 has bags but take my word for it he 280's performance is in a different league.

1 hour ago, ionelmc said:

You could also look up some VW Golf forums and search for R vs GTI threads, kinda the same discussion.

Maybe not as tough if you were financing or leasing.  The R is often a MUCH cheaper proposition than the GTi.  

 

The market will be flooded with ex-lease R's soon and they should make for some good buys.....though how delicately they've been driven is another matter. 

5 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

The R is often a MUCH cheaper proposition than the GTi.

That sounds crazy. How can it be cheaper?!

Just now, ionelmc said:

That sounds crazy. How can it be cheaper?!

I don't know.  At one point you could get an R for £220-250 on a 2 year lease with 6/9 month deposit and 10k allowance.  The GTi was over £300.  The GTD was even more!

 

Obviously lease rates fluctuate as does the stock people hold.   The lease will also take residual value into account so I guess they thought the R will retain more value and the depreciation wasn't being passed on to the customer? 

 

It's no doubt the reason why you now see more R's on the road than GTi's.  

 

Similar story with the Leon Cupra's.  At one point cheaper than a 184 FR TDI. 

26 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

I don't know.  At one point you could get an R for £220-250 on a 2 year lease with 6/9 month deposit and 10k allowance.  The GTi was over £300.  The GTD was even more!

 

 

True that. 

 

A mate of mine leased an R. 

 

He was paying £250 a month where I was/am paying £223 for my Octavia Vrs. 

 

Some really good unbelievable deals a couple of years back. 

 

Back on topic, I really wanted the 280 but I just couldn't justify the cost. 

 

However I'll be going from a standard 184bhp diesel MK3 Octavia Vrs to a petrol 220 superb sportline in may when my current lease ends. 

 

I can't wait 

Clearly there isn’t much argument about the benefits and desirability of 4x4 – apart from the good point already made that they can deceive dangerously by not stopping any quicker. But most people’s brains should be able to cope with remembering that.

As for the power: the only the problem here, and nice as the 280ps is, it’s never really enough – for some of us at least. You get used to it and want more. Hence why some have already bought themselves little black boxes (which can make quite exaggerated claims). If the Superb were available tomorrow with say 350-400, I’d be pretty much compelled to have it.

However, since the 220 is not available as 4x4, it’s case closed then.

25 minutes ago, eurotraveller said:

they can deceive dangerously by not stopping any quicker

Well technically the 280 has bigger brake disks so it might brake better.

I meant in slippery conditions: the car will pull away like there's no problem, but...

I love my 280, I immediately boxed it to an alleged 350.

Whether it does hit that figure is anyone's guess, but it removes what I thought was the totally smooth delivery of power of the 280 and gives you a more hairem scarem kick in sports mode.

+ on average the box gives you an extra mpg or two (Brushes over the fact I can only run it on 98RON or above)

 

Done 30k miles in it now and still brings a smile to my face

Glad I went for it over the more sensible 220 option.

Edited 16 January, 20188 yr by Brenticles