33 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

 

Also if you don't remove the battery from the car then don't connect the charger up to both battery terminals.

You need to connect the negative up to an earthing point, see the car manual for more detail.

 

Thanks, AG Falco 

Good point.  Again information on this in the Operator's Manual.

 

But keeping the battery in the car will slow things down even more as the battery is being used by the car so part of the recharging is lost.

 

Very recently as a neighbour didn't want to remove the battery from a different make of car as they didn't have the radio code I lent out my other 30+ year-old 4-amp analogue charger not realising not only were they going to also be using the car for running grown offspring about but also shutting the windows during the hottest weather of the year on a black car.  I'd already explained about recharging in the extreme heat and now they were literally cooking my old charger.  When I saw this and they put the ignition on to drop the windows the charger stopped as the car's blower fan hadn't been turned off from the last run and that surge was the last straw.  I'd already suggested they put their head inside the car to see how hot it was so when they saw the charger needle completely dropped their face was a picture as they thought they'd bust my machine.

 

I took pity on them and cooled the charger by disconnecting it and blowing through its slots but it was a perfect illustration of what I'd been telling them about them trying to push water uphill by putting all the obstacles in the way of the, or any, battery charger doing its job well.  It was mutually decided to leave recharging the battery, on the car, until the weather cooled.  I'm sure that it'll be all forgotten about until more warning lights appear on the dash or the car won't start, and being an automatic that'll be more 'fun'.   You can lead a horse to water  .  .  .

Edited 27 July, 20214 yr by nta16

Thanks for all the advice. The battery, a MOLL EFB type, which is claimed to be the best available for hot conditions and high consumption e.g. Start stop (Moll's description) is now charging having been properly connected to the earthing point under the bonnet, where everything should remain reasonably cool under the silver hood. I never had problems like this with my 1957 Morris Minor 1000!

22 hours ago, rgcaston said:

Thanks for all the advice. The battery, a MOLL EFB type, which is claimed to be the best available for hot conditions and high consumption e.g. Start stop (Moll's description) is now charging having been properly connected to the earthing point under the bonnet, where everything should remain reasonably cool under the silver hood. I never had problems like this with my 1957 Morris Minor 1000!

Good news for my mate who I gave the factory fitted Moll EFB battery to for any shed or spare battery needs he might have.

 

I took the Moll battery off the car to charge it and Sod's Law an hour later the new Bosch (Vatra) AGM battery was delivered.  I don't think it took too long for the Moll battery to fully recharge even with the maintenance charger, done by next day IIRC, and the charge held for at least a couple of weeks before I took it over to my mate's so I think I panicked by getting its replacement.  I also topped up the new Bosch battery with it and the two bits of charging have merged in my mind now.

 

1957 hey, mines mainly 50s and 60s technology (despite being a 1973 model) with just a little 21st century.  My Spridget sits outside 365/6, is used in winter though sometimes left for 2 or 3 weeks now, no isolation switch but I don't think I ever charged my previous battery more than twice, first time just a test as I had the charger out and was done within minutes and second time I can't remember why but I decided to replace the battery after this as I didn't know its age and I can't stand a car that won't start for whatever reason and I'm too old and fat to be pushing lumps of metal around now.

 

If you get the battery fully recharged I wouldn't be surprised if not only you lose the warnings but also it seems to run better, especially if you also give it an Italian tune-up run just to ensure the battery is topped off too.

 

All the basics that apply to the Moggy apply to the Fabia, except the Minor doesn't have banks of interfering computers with mixed up programs to battle against.  I'd no idea how invasive this stop/start BCM is.

 

I changed the transmission oil on my wife's Fabia and she said it made a noticeable improvement on the feel of the gear shifting, I thought it did too but I don't drive it enough to really know.

 

I've got new coolant to put in to too but have yet to get a roundtuit.

 

Let us know how you get on and how long it takes to fully recharge the battery if you can.

 

Edited 28 July, 20214 yr by nta16
cross out

2 hours ago, nta16 said:

especially if you also give it an Italian tune-up run just to ensure the battery is topped off.

 

A stop start car will NOT fully charge the battery by design.

 

If the battery is already full charged then what happens when you brake?

Look here at Micro Hybrid 2:- https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/micro-hybrid-hybrid-vehicles-explained/

 

Thanks. AG Falco

18 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

 

A stop start car will NOT fully charge the battery by design.

 

If the battery is already full charged then what happens when you brake?

Look here at Micro Hybrid 2:- https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/micro-hybrid-hybrid-vehicles-explained/

 

Thanks. AG Falco

Fair enough I should have chosen my words more carefully, I was being flippant there.

 

I expect there's some program to compensate for such anyway otherwise if I'd have been using the car on Sunday following the cyclist down a very long very steep hill with the brakes smelling from the effort of holding the weight of the car back from running over him as he held the centre of the narrow one lane road all the way to the bottom.  What I wanted to know was what his brakes were but they where only taking his weight and the bike's due to my efforts and those of the other two cars.

 

Also AGM batteries can go on conventional cars without stop/start technology so the alternator would be charging as normal.

 

But what words should I use to get the point over - fully charged to it's capacity of charge, fully charged doesn't have to mean 100%, then 100% of what, and what would be 100%, from factory at factory tolerance, as new, off of storage shelf and how long on the shelf.  I would email Bosch but last time I tried I went through three levels of return email checks to get no further, bit like the old flicking the phone switch off just as you get through to someone on the telephone bureau.  Perhaps I should try ringing Varta as they make the battery, some places do have people that reply to phone calls.

 

I did notice on the battery a small image with 12.4v and a tick so I could pin down what that actually means too.

 

I'll report back if I get any firm answers. 

 

You want 12.6 volts for a charged battery when testing it after it has been given time to rest from being charged.

Most car battery tests on an AGM/EFB battery will suggest you first fully charge and then retest the battery to get a proper result.

 

The 5 year old battery on my car got tested last Saturday when I did it's 6th service.

The tester rated the EN at higher than the original rating is listed at!

 

They have been fitting AGM batteries to some cars ( without stop / start ) for 20 years already.

 

Thanks, AG Falco

 

I'd expect anything from 12.6v to 12.9v depending on the testing equipment used, the weather, how long my left trouser leg is.  I don't hold too much trust for DIY electronic test equipment or garage stuff that's been used and abused.

 

My not rubbish but not good modern digital multimeter always seems to give optimistic readings but I always allow time for the battery to settle back down, and if on the car put the headlights on for a short while, before taking a reading.

 

I've had dealership ticksheets with spare tyre shown at full tread depth when there was never a spare, another time the tyres on the car had grown a millimetre of tread each from the previous visit and I'd guess other stuff I can't remember.

 

The AGM batteries could go on a 1973* car like mine, if they do one small enough, with only an alternator to decide on the charge rate .

 

* A matter of months before the model was still on a dynamo, basically a late 50s car still on sale in the 70s, British innovation, or I also had 15 years back a 1980s Capri, a 1960s car still sold in the 80s, American innovation, no wonder Japan and now China are taking over, ya gotta laff. 

Edited 28 July, 20214 yr by nta16
decimal dot placement

On 27/07/2021 at 21:32, nta16 said:

Fair enough I should have chosen my words more carefully, I was being flippant there.

 

I expect there's some program to compensate for such anyway otherwise if I'd have been using the car on Sunday following the cyclist down a very long very steep hill with the brakes smelling from the effort of holding the weight of the car back from running over him as he held the centre of the narrow one lane road all the way to the bottom.  What I wanted to know was what his brakes were but they where only taking his weight and the bike's due to my efforts and those of the other two cars.

 

Also AGM batteries can go on conventional cars without stop/start technology so the alternator would be charging as normal.

 

But what words should I use to get the point over - fully charged to it's capacity of charge, fully charged doesn't have to mean 100%, then 100% of what, and what would be 100%, from factory at factory tolerance, as new, off of storage shelf and how long on the shelf.  I would email Bosch but last time I tried I went through three levels of return email checks to get no further, bit like the old flicking the phone switch off just as you get through to someone on the telephone bureau.  Perhaps I should try ringing Varta as they make the battery, some places do have people that reply to phone calls.

 

I did notice on the battery a small image with 12.4v and a tick so I could pin down what that actually means too.

 

I'll report back if I get any firm answers. 

 

Here's some answers, (What Varta would say if a techy got back to you, apart from the bikey bit...)

 

Decent bikes can come with disc brakes (as an alternative to rim brakes) and the option of running sintered or resin pads and an additional option of finned pads for cooling to fend off fade for a good while. They have phenominal bite and modulation.

 

AGM can go on conventional cars but ideally, the charge voltage needs to be limited to 14.8v to protect from overheating events and drying the battery out. The same for AGM compatible chargers ref 14.8v limit.

 

All new batteries are fully charged ready for use but they need to be worked and cycled a few times for the performance to mature, like bedding in brakes. AGM can be as high as 13.0v at 6 weeks from manufacture but settle around 12.8v after that. Voltage cannot be toleranced as such as it is a result of an organic process but there are thresholds set after several rest period days for which the voltage must be higher for it to be fit for use and the bulk average figures are recorded for production runs for control limits and traceability references. Shelf life is dictated by voltage decay at approx 0.02v per month depending on ambient temperature. 12 months or more is not unheard of so long as the voltage is maintaned above 12.5v to prevent sulphation and permanent loss of capacity.

This thread seems to have deviated from the original problem as to what would have triggered a 'Start stop error' to appear on my Fabia III display? The probable cause suggested was that the battery, being nearly 5 years old, coupled with the fact that the car hasn't been on a decent run for some weeks, may have been seen as incapable of supporting the start stop system. It was further suggested that a good charge might rectify the whole problem. The short answer to all that is that it made no difference, a long charge of 30 hrs +, followed by a 30 mile drive on a dual carriage way, made no difference. I had driven with the Start/Stop off until I returned to the village, when I switched it back on up came the error message. As the car started and drove perfectly well I will continue to use it until the next service is due, then see if it needs a new battery.

All the chat about the relative merits of EFB vs AGM has been interesting, as has the research into the price of recommended replacements. 

Re the nostalgia about old cars - my Morris 1000 had a starting handle!

@rgcaston a bit of mussing going on whilst awaiting your report back.  

 

30hrs is a reasonable time (if the battery was off the car) but depending on the charger and state of battery charge it could take even longer but you can always try again if you want to add back more.

 

30-mile drive on dual carriageway again is reasonable but hardly long distance and unless it was all in third gear not much of a blow out run.

 

But these where just easy and relatively inexpensive things to try, if the battery isn't already too far gone for them to help.

 

The car will start and probably continue to run but you may have more (and possibly additional) errors messages - or if you drive reasonable distances and conserve your electrical usage (never a bad idea) perhaps your error message might even go away with the battery and computers having replenished themselves, sometimes it takes computers a while to cotton on, as sometimes their programs aren't as smart as the programmers make out.

 

You're showing off with your Moggy starting handle wots up with taking the handbrake off on a slope and bump starting, sometimes backwards. 

 

Let us know if you don't make it to the next service, I hope you do, cheers.

 

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by nta16

@BigEjit Yes I was mightily impress with the bike's brakes especially considering how very long and very far they were applied, not so much with the rider taking the middle of the road the whole time though.  As someone that was a cyclist, and for 6 years was a full-time without a car, cycling to work, shopping, visiting, leisure rides (no holidays then) I do see the cyclists side even the fair weather, lycra clad bolchy old boys.

 

I'll try again with Varta, three times transferred to an extension with an answerphone, I could have left a message but didn't.  I have done some research on EFB/AGM batteries, including the links AGFalco put up. I also rang Tayna and the chap there said it was fine for me to charge the new battery up before fitting and the 12.4v label on it was indeed voltage it could sent out at and fitted to the car with.

 

I was reading all about 'stock rotation' as I'll call it and when charging in storage might be required, a complicated coding system on one manufacturer's batteries that I read.

 

I think compared to many I'm a modest user of battery power having go to used to unreliable vehicles but I can't stop these modern cars swallowing it away from me, I think the days of the factory fitted battery lasting 8, 10, 12 or 15(?) years might be over. 

 

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by nta16

OT, just messaged the seller on eBay to see where my Ice-tec brake pads are for my E-bike.   Not OEM Shimano which can be £20 plus a pair but 'copies' / snide ones at 2 pairs for £18.  These last about 600 miles on the rears and 800 miles front.  Which is about the same as a cassette and chain on one of my biked which come in at £150 a time.    Another is on originals at 2,500 miles  People think servicing and maintenance is expensive but nothing  compared to some E-bikes with the likes of 75-90 Nm and without regenerative braking carrying around 120 kg and the bikes weight.  Rolling along on the flat, powering up hills, but much need of slowing down as they start getting above 30 mph going down hill. 

Edited 30 July, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

10 hours ago, rgcaston said:

followed by a 30 mile drive on a dual carriage way

 This will not charge the battery especially if it has just been fully charged.

 

10 hours ago, rgcaston said:

when I switched it back on up came the error message

Have you found out what the error is?

 

Thanks, AG Falco

10 hours ago, rgcaston said:

a long charge of 30 hrs +

A smart charger with a low charging rate of 3 amps would only need 10 hours to charge up a half charged 59 AH battery.

3 amps x 10 hours = 30 AH's.

Has the battery been cooked / overcharged?

 

Thanks, AG Falco

11 hours ago, rgcaston said:

This thread seems to have deviated from the original problem as to what would have triggered a 'Start stop error' to appear on my Fabia III display? The probable cause suggested was that the battery, being nearly 5 years old, coupled with the fact that the car hasn't been on a decent run for some weeks, may have been seen as incapable of supporting the start stop system. It was further suggested that a good charge might rectify the whole problem. The short answer to all that is that it made no difference, a long charge of 30 hrs +, followed by a 30 mile drive on a dual carriage way, made no difference. I had driven with the Start/Stop off until I returned to the village, when I switched it back on up came the error message. As the car started and drove perfectly well I will continue to use it until the next service is due, then see if it needs a new battery.

All the chat about the relative merits of EFB vs AGM has been interesting, as has the research into the price of recommended replacements. 

Re the nostalgia about old cars - my Morris 1000 had a starting handle!

 

Any long period of inactivity coupled with short journeys of just a few minutes at a time just puts the battery into a discharged condition. As the voltage drops towards 12.0v sulphation starts building up as part of the function of the battery. If its left in a low voltage condition (lower than 12.4v disconnected) for days or weeks, this becomes a permanent feature of the battery and loses functional capacity. it may still charge up to 12.72v but the active volume of material inside is much less than it was when new so it never lasts very long before needing another recharge. Flooded and EFB batteries are more sensitive to this than AGM which takes far more abuse to destroy, takes a charge faster and is better for low mileage cars.

 

The golden rule is never let a battery stand at low voltage for weeks or months.

1 hour ago, AGFalco said:

A smart charger with a low charging rate of 3 amps would only need 10 hours to charge up a half charged 59 AH battery.

What is this nonsense about a "smart" charger? My 3A trickle charger has been around since the 1960s, and reduces charge rate when the battery gets to about 90% without azure dentition or an "app".

@AGFalco I suggested the run not just as a charge of the battery, depending on what electrics are running at the time, but more as establishing the idea that the whole car needs more than just very short stop start journeys.

 

How long the battery needs to be recharged can depend on so many factors including the charger being used and of course you can cook a battery, my elderly neighbour done so decades back which is why I took over his battery maintenance, visual checks just to reassure him, and he bought me a battery charger the same as the one he had as a "thank you" present for me, instead of the usual talc he sometimes insisted I took, I must have stank! 

 

I thought I'd never use it and very rarely have on our cars but it's been round a few neighbours over the decades.

 

If I put my other 20+ year old 4-stage charger on a neighbours battery I only check it every so often and as it only has a yellow 'I'm working' or green 'I've done it' lights on it it could go from yellow to green the very second I turn my back on it from checking it so as I leave it for possibly the next 10 hours I could be just contributing to Scottish Power's profits for no good reason but there's more to life than watch battery charger LEDs.

 

These cars must be great news for the battery manufacturers, many car purchasers won't be aware of the stop/start system being so wearing on the battery and intrusive to other systems on the car, I wasn't and I've always stressed the importance of a good car battery in good condition.

 

Last night the chap at our 'local' curry house was going out doing local deliveries in a diesel that had the DPF warning light on and he didn't know the significance of it, reminded me of when they promoted fags as being good for you.

 

Edited 30 July, 20214 yr by nta16

I have a 2017 Skoda Fabia, and it gave me an error in the start/stop system yesterday when I started the car. The engine sign light and EPC light were blinking. However, both of them disappeared after a short drive. After reading this thread, my suspicion went to the battery. So, I measured the battery value to be 12.56. However, this is a factory-fitted battery that has yet to be changed. The battery's health condition seems okay by looking at its health checker (color). Does anyone have a suggestion for me? 

As the weather / temperatures drop then the battery might well reach end of life.

More load will be on it with heated rear screen, mirrors, lights, radio, heater etc and it takes longer to get power back into the battery s short runs an issue from cold starts.

@Hassan_skoda personally I suggest you buy an appropriate battery charger and maintainer (I use a 4-amp) and recharge the battery, it simple, cheap and very little effort and you will know the battery is full (if you leave the charger and maintainer on long enough).  Check your Owner's Manual for the procedure.  Recharging the battery this way way when required, or before as a preventative measure, will help with the battery life and more avoid the various warning messages and lights that a low battery can cause, a good battery isn't cheap and can be a bit of hassle to replace particularly if not like for like in spec.

 

Just driving the car often isn't enough to fully restore the battery and the more often and the lower the battery is allowed to get the more likely the battery will need replacing sooner and various warning lights and messages might show.

 

30 minutes ago, Hassan_skoda said:

So, I measured the battery value to be 12.56

It depends when you took this reading, best taken after the car has been parked for a few hours so it's not showing the recent journey charge, and you want the car's computer systems have settled as much as they might as they may draw 0.2v or 0.3+v which you will have to allow for.

 

Hot weather affects car batteries which shows up more at this time of year and winter because of usually additional load on them because of the weather and longer nights so the likes of the AA get busier with their number one cause of callouts.

 

Just to update my last comments about our 2016 Fabia stop start problem.

We always switch that system off but the Yellow engine light has continued to come on.

There seems to be no noticeable affect upon the running of the vehicle and it has passed the emission test at 2 MOTs. It is now a very low mileage car mainly used locally, which is not ideal for the battery.

The battery was changed, for an AGM Stop/ Start battery, the old one had continued to start the car until it totally collapsed after 7 years in the car.

However, the stop/ start error still comes up until the system is switched off and the engine light still illuminates, this can be switched off using a cheap code reader

but re-appears quite quickly when the engine is running. The car failed the MOT recently because of the light and it is now at a garage being investigated.

Incidentally my charger is designed for AGM batteries and I do used the earth point if and when charging is necessary.

I would be interested to know if others have solved the Star/ Stop problem and will report the outcome of the current investigation.

When you had the battery replaced, was the new (AGM) adapted in to the BCM? This definitely needed to be done if the old battery wasn't the same type or capacity. I don't recall all of the parameters that inhibit stop/start from happening - but it is quite possible that an emissions fault will be one of them.                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

Edited 14 November, 20232 yr by Warrior193
added information

Thanks for the update.

 

If the battery was sorted/changed/'coded' correctly then you'd want someone with an relevant scan tool for the complex VW programs to get to the bottom of this with a report and diagnosis, as you've found a cheap general reader will only turn the light off until the engine is run again (I see I did previously offer my a link to VCDS owners that might be able to help with this, some for beer token.

 

My wife's car was some sort of Dealer use car bought at 10k-mile use (abuse?) the start/stop is push-buttoned off as routine and the car get used with most weeks work commute of under 2 miles 4 or 5 days a week so I occasionally get the battery charger maintainer out for preventative use and very, very  occasionally give the car a "blow out" on the very few times I can as my wife is by far the main driver.

 

Until last year I used various 60s and 70s "classic" (over priced, over valued old) cars as daily, work, commute, club, holiday use for 30 years or so, never had a starter handle, never needed one on the "classics" but I did on my early 90s English car and as it wasn't available so I parked the car on a slope and bumped started it (no cat), once in reverse on a hill and then stalled it doing a "three-point turn" luckily it was just a matter of taking the handbrake off and bump starting it again and quick with the brake and clutch pedals so I didn't charge back down the hill in reverse.

 

It'll be interesting to hear what your problem(s) are with your car and how they're resolved as they may well be different to others with start/stop issues.