Dear fellows,

 

I'm trying to find a parasitic draw on my 1.4 MPI with a refurbished alternator and brand new battery for some time now. The battery voltage drops from 12.59v to 12.27v after 7 days.

 

After closing the car, the total draw from the battery is 100ma for the first 30 or 60 minutes. Then it goes to 12ma when it enters deep sleep.

 

But still the battery lost a lot of juice after a week. Is the something that can trigger this cars to wake up from deep sleep every time?

 

(you can ignore the first post above here > Editing timeout)

 

Dear fellows,

 

I'm trying to find a parasitic draw on my 1.4 MPI that has a refurbished alternator (70Ah) and a brand new (52Ah) battery for some time now. The battery voltage drops from 12.59v to 12.27v after parking it and leaving it fully untouched for 7 days. After closing the car, the total draw from the battery is 100ma for the first 30 or 60 minutes. Then it goes to 12ma when it enters a deep sleep mode.

 

But still the battery loses a lot of it capacity after a week. Is there something that can trigger this type of cars to wake up from deep sleep now and then?

 

The only wireless option/device on this car is the remote key/central locking system. The only non-Skoda electrical device connected to this car is a simple Sony radio/CD-Player.The door and bonnet switches seem to be in order.

 

The only thing out of order, is that the interior lights will not go out directly every time after locking the car (this happens once in every 20 or 30 times I lock the car. Simple unlocking and re-locking the car with the remote key solves it. 

 

Edited 17 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

Additional measurements over fuses in fusebox:

 

Door open and car unlocked:

Fuse no. 1 / Instrument cluster / 0.1 mv

Fuse no. 4 /  Interior lighting / 13.5 mv

Fuse no. 5 /  Red door lights L&R / 15.1 mv

Fuse no. 43 /  Central control unit (no auto. trans. on this car) / 0.3 mv

Fuse no. 49 /  Central locking system / 0.1 mv

 

Car fully locked after 30 to 60 minutes:

Fuse no. 1 / Instrument cluster / 0.1 mv

 

No errors in all used modules (Vagcom modules 01,09,15,17,44 and 46)

Edited 17 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

2 hours ago, Palatinux said:

Is there something that can trigger this type of cars to wake up from deep sleep now and then?

 

Do you keep the remote fob/key in your pocket when you are inside the house?  Is the car parked within range of the remote when you are indoors?

I cannot open the car from my house with the key (about 80 yards away, with other cars in between). I only have the key in my pocket and I'm close enough to the car when I walk the dog. But I can leave the batteries in both keys out this week to test it. Good idea.

 

I removed fuse 4 (inter. lights), 5 (door lights) and 45 (radio) from the car today for further testing. Battery was 12.22 after some load today and will drive the car again next Tuesday.

 

Might it be chatter on the 433Mhz band that causes to car to wake up every time? (around 50 other cars and houses with possible 433Mhz equipment are in the vicinity).

 

I didn't find a way to disable the antenna/remote system in the car with VAGCOM. I'll try to remove fuse 43 and 49 next time I drive the car.

This may be way off mark but is your glove box light actually going out when the door is shut. I thought mine was but then one night I noticed a dim glow in the passenger foot well. The light was on and the cam on the switch was broken. Again the boot light wouldnt go off when shut, as it was broken but stuck in the open position.   Fixed both for pence. 

My humble Fabia version doesn't have that enlightened luxury in the glove-box. I found an excuse to take a longer drive tomorrow and recharge the battery before it's damaged too much like the last one.

 

I'll try to measure the fuses once again next week.

 

Might it be an relay?

Edited 18 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

I re-measured the battery drain in suspend and deep sleep mode today; 106ma for 30 min , then 12,65 ma in deep sleep.

It might be moisture related, but I doubt that, since we had a lot of rain two days before the last measurement.

 

Is there a way to disable Fuse 49 (central locking) without leaving the CCU and boot lid lock active. In other words, how can I remove fuse 49 and lock the car so it enters it normal deep sleep state after 30 mins?

 

I do have a schematic of the CCU, but I cannot tell what switch or event might trigger the CCU to it's suspended state.

 

Edited 19 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

I only have experience of searching for battery drain issues on a late 2009 Ibiza, but with that car, you don't need to make sure that the car is locked to send these systems to sleep, it will go to sleep unlocked after maybe 30 minutes, even, I'd think with a door open. Now, if you are asking how you lock a car when the central locking has been disabled, each side door has a small rubber plug that you remove, under there is an almost rectangular recess, use the car key to turn it disc slightly, refit the rubber plug and close the door, it should now be locked, for the driver's door, just use the key to mechanically lock it.

 

A few other tips is you have time, check that battery when disconnected, is not slowly discharging, then remove the large lead (if there is one) that connects the battery to the inside of the car, really to try to split the areas being presently supplied by the battery, also, disconnect the output lead from the alternator and insulate it - do these things one at a time obviously - and be prepared to get slightly confused if this is an intermittent problem!

 

My problem was a bit tricky to resolve as I was convinced it was just a BCM S/W issue, but my first SEAT dealer disproved that theory and replaced some parts, about a year later and after I had run out of ideas other than the BCM S/W I submitted it to another SEAT dealer who found that there was a S/W patch/update available, updated the BCM S/W - problem solved! That age of Ibiza was known to possibly suffer from that problem, your Fabia does not!

6 hours ago, Palatinux said:

I do have a schematic of the CCU

Do you mean how it is connected to the car, or what the circuitry is inside the box?

 

I have no idea how it knows to go to sleep, but I guess, no inputs from any switches, radio signals etc. all quiet on the CAN bus, plus a time delay.

 

My door switches are integrated into the locks. There is nothing on the body, but still you might be right rum4ro. Faulty microswitches or even relais can be triggered by a lorry driving by (or water). It would be great if I could easily bridge or disable all door and trunk switches on the car to rule them out.

 

I think so too Wino, isn't that timeout programmable into the 6Q1-937-049B / VCDS module 09 / terminal 30G ?

@Wino, @TripleMcB, @rum4mo Thank you all for now. I have the annual MOT check next Friday (for the dutch: APK) and I need to check and adjust some other things on the car before that.

 

I'll continue testing next week. First by pulling out not-vital fuses after parking the car, except the ones in the battery-box (alt., main system power, PAS,cooling vent. and some fuse for the bordnet) and 1, 16, 17, 24, 28, 43, 49 and 56 of the fuse-box on the drivers-side.

 

@Wino Do you know if there is a risk to damage anything by pulling out those fuses and inserting them back later. All one by one. Or do I need to disconnect the battery first?

 

 

 

Or the simple solution (not my pref.): a solar 12V / 4.5W / 375ma charger with reversed drain protection. But will it fry your battery or electronics without a charge controller? You can connect it to the Fabia front or back cigarette lighter since it always connected, but you'll need to disconnect it the DIN plug before starting the alternator.

 

Since the voltage is a bit higher than normal; will it act like a battery trainer / battery desulfation?

 

https://www.banggood.com/Portable-Solar-Panel-Power-Battery-Charger-Backup-For-Car-Boat-Automobile-12V-5W-p-1019716.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN

 

I don't think removing fuses can do any damage.

 

I agree with Wino over removing/fitting fuses, so no problems there.  Solar charger, I don't think that you will fry your battery with that as its output over a 24 hour period is probably a lot less than your drain, also its maximum output (voltage) current when connected to a fully charged battery will be very very low.  I used that "simple solution" on that late 2009 Ibiza and was very disappointed with its performance - well up in Central Scotland, unless the solar panel was at almost 90 degrees to the exposed sun, the output was never more than roughly 15% > 25% of its rated output. Turn it to exactly the correct angle facing the sun and it came back up to 100% of quoted output, but averaging that out over 24 hours lead to "not much" current being driven into the battery - luckily I also had a battery booster pack and that "saved the day".

 

I tried that solar cell on a smaller 50% discharged "hill billy" golf buggy battery - used inside battery booster packs - and over a very sunny 4 day period, it basically did not recharge that 19AmpHour battery, which was not connected to anything else by much, very disappointing, but a lesson learned!

 

I'd think that you need to get the bottom of why the interior lights do not follow the locking procedure as expected every time, hopefully removing the central locking fuse and a few others will give you an indication of where the drain is coming from, but as you say that it is intermittent, like the interior light operation, it could take some time!

@rum4mo In that case I trust you more than the guys around the internet that review those panels. What is the max output of that panel (in theory)?

 

I drove the car on a road that will make your car vibrate, tight turns, tight braking, uphill and downhill, splashed 10l of water on the doors and windows, pulled and pushed the doors when locked and unlocked; no abnormal behavior of the interior lights (and trunk light). The LED in the driver door blinks every 2 secs after locking the car. Even after many hours. I cannot find any reliable information if this behavior is correct, but I'm sure the expert @Wino knows .

 

It seems that the courtesy light relay is not always released after locking the car in, approx. 1 of 50 lock-downs. Some dealer told me that it was a software issue with those modules many years ago(?).

 

I'll start with removing fuses for the interior lights, central control unit and the central locking system on Friday instead of almost all fuses first. A needle in haystack, so I have to start somewhere.

The solar charger I bought was one that plugs into the EOBD socket as the "cigarette  lighter" socket on the SEAT, VW and Audis that I have gets powered down when the ignition key is removed, also it was only half the capacity of the one you have mentioned, my one is described as being rated as 2.4Watt output peak power, peak voltage 12.7Volts and "Optimum working current" 0.13 > 0.20Amps.  When I pointed it directly at the sun without car glass in between it and the clear blue sky sun, I measured roughly 0.15Amp when attempting to recharge a 50% charged "hill billy" battery, the best I ever logged from behind house glass and close to direct sun shone was only 0.06Amp, couple that to the annoying fact that wrt our position on earth, the sun seems to move about quite a bit and I guessed that the "AmpHours" that that battery could be receiving over a 24 hour period was about 0.4AmpHours which if your car or battery had a parasitic continuous drain 0.017Amps, then it would hold the charge okay, but most people would be experiencing, with a battery drain problem, quite a bit more than that.

 

The alarm LED flashing every 2 seconds for ever is good/okay!

Edited 21 March, 20188 yr by rum4mo

On 3/21/2018 at 13:58, rum4mo said:

The solar charger I bought was one that plugs into the EOBD socket as the "cigarette  lighter" socket on the SEAT, VW and Audis that I have gets powered down when the ignition key is removed, also it was only half the capacity of the one you have mentioned, my one is described as being rated as 2.4Watt output peak power, peak voltage 12.7Volts and "Optimum working current" 0.13 > 0.20Amps.  When I pointed it directly at the sun without car glass in between it and the clear blue sky sun, I measured roughly 0.15Amp when attempting to recharge a 50% charged "hill billy" battery, the best I ever logged from behind house glass and close to direct sun shone was only 0.06Amp, couple that to the annoying fact that wrt our position on earth, the sun seems to move about quite a bit and I guessed that the "AmpHours" that that battery could be receiving over a 24 hour period was about 0.4AmpHours which if your car or battery had a parasitic continuous drain 0.017Amps, then it would hold the charge okay, but most people would be experiencing, with a battery drain problem, quite a bit more than that.

 

The alarm LED flashing every 2 seconds for ever is good/okay!

 

Searched in all manuals I have for that 2 second LED 24/7 interval confirmation without success, so thank you!

 

And I'm going to order that 4.5W solar panel when I found the source of this in intermittent/triggered parasitic draw.

 

The 17yo Fabia passed the MOT check today without any problems. When arrived at home I measured the fuses on the drivers side with a new multimeter (doors unlocked and open, int. light off). Only measured 0.2mv over F43 (CCU). Nothing on 1 (intr. panel) or 49 (centrl. lock) maybe because the meter cannot go below 0.1mv at the lowest 20mv setting.

 

Then I pulled F43 and F49, and the draw on the battery dropped from from 12-14ma to 9,63ma.

When releasing the cable of the alternator from fuse 1 in the batterybox, it dropped to 9,07ma.

Battery voltage was 12,66V after 5 hours and I'll leave F43 en F49 disconnected for a few days and see if that helps.

 

Never had starting issue with this car, but I don't like buying a new battery every 2 or 3 years. Not even mentioning the extra load on the alternator on cold starts.

 

Edited 23 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

And reducing from 12,72v (float after loading) to 12,66v after 5 hours, 12,59v after 24h, 12,59v after 30h, 12,55v after 36h. It might be the cold outside.

 

Monitored the car for 72 hrs with a camera and didn't see any lights go on on the car. (Besides the trunk light maybe).

 

Does anyone know which fuse protects all the relays in the relay holder? I Searched though the complete Fabia MK1 flow diagram manual (664 pages) and I'm still not sure if the other relays are located there as well (radiator fan relays and windscreen washers relays, trunk and door solenoid relais etc.)

There are not many relays plugged into the relay panel unfortunately. Mostly they are circuit-board, soldered-in types, in their relevant control modules.

 

So fan relays are in J293 Fan Control Module in the engine bay (with fuses in battery fusebox).

 

I'm not sure about how the windscreen washer motor is driven, but the wiper relays are inside the J519 module under the dashboard.

 

Relays related to door lock motors will be inside J393 module, also under dashboard, I think.

 

Generally in the current flow diagrams, the grey block at the top of each page with the transistor symbol is J519. Early diagrams were labelled J519 here, later versions perhaps not.

 

J519, the Onboard Power Supply Control Module is the square black box with all the connectors and wiring hanging off it:

Edited 25 March, 20188 yr by Wino

Thank you. I'll try to get under the dashboard when the weather gets better and after a few more tests to see if it's J393, J519 or some of the devices connected to them are causing the abnormal drain.

The battery showed 12,57v (ok!) after 50 hours and I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to be certain. Then I'll enable j393 and disable J519.

 

By going through the schematics, I think I must:

1. plug fuse 43 and 49 back in.

2. Make contact to start the POS diag just in case.

3. Turn contact off and close all doors.

4. Close the door contact/lock of the driver-side by hand.

5. Unlock and lock the car with the remote until the light in door blinks every 2 seconds.

6. Pull fuse 43 to disable j519.

7. Unlock door with the key and pull the door-handle to release the lock, close the door and use the key to lock the car again.

8. If everything is ok, I should not be able to open the trunk by hand from the outside.

 

It seems that J519 talks to J393 over the CAN databus. So by shutting J519 down, you can exclude j519 (and everything behind it) if the battery is still drained abnormally.

You're thinking more clearly about all this than I am now, so I'll wish you success and ask that you please keep us informed of what you discover.

9 minutes ago, Palatinux said:

The battery showed 12,57v (ok!) after 50 hours and I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to be certain

 

This sounds like you have eliminated the drain.

Looks like it. I only hope it's not j393 that is causing the drain. But we now can rule a lot out (major wiring looms, alt, PAS, ECU, airbag, instr. clust.).

Good grief. I was staring at the ceiling tonight (not only because of the #$@ car). And thought about the things Wino said about the relays and switches in the system. And I realized I have not heard stage 1 (zooming sound) of the cooling fan for a long time (I always open my door and listen if the fan runs before shutting down then engine). I only heard stage 2 (vacuum-cleaner sound) every time.

 

Last Sunday, I was checking the hot running engine for weird sounds before the MOT check. Looked around in the compartment (fan stood still) and was shocked that it switched to vacuum-cleaner mode in a split second. But still my brains said 'Moooo!'' at that time. So thank you Wino for clearing that up.. again!

 

The radiator fan thermo-switch can trigger a intermittent parasitic draw if worn (in theory, but not very likely after the last tests).  How can I test the fan in a proper way without burning or loosing my fingers? (Aside from putting fuse 8 (30A) back in the fusebox as last).

 

* I found a photo of my car (AQW) in the archive (attached)

* Exploded view and flow diagrams (attached):

 

I already found some posts, but not a really good one with everything in it.

 

Parts of cooling system - Radiator Cooling Fan etc - Skoda Fabia MK1.pdf

Starter, alternator, radiator fan, fuse holder on battery - flow diagrams schematics - Skoda Fabia MK1.pdf

Edited 26 March, 20188 yr by Palatinux

No aircon on your car?

If that's the case then you won't have the J293 fan control module,  it will be just like the pdf you've attached.

So you can either fit fuse 8, remove the connector off the thermoswitch and connect together pins 1 and 2 (red to thinner red/white wire) and expect the fan to spin up at slow speed; or (easier) use resistance measurement between pin 2 (thin red/white) and earth/chassis.  If it gives a very high reading, chances are high that the low speed resistor inside the fan case has broken.