1.4 TSI 4x4 vs 2.0 190 TDI 4x4 -purchase dilema

[neilsupermac]

Hi,

 

Complete newbie and about to purchase a Kodiaq of some sort. I've test driven the 4x4 in both 1.4TSI and 2.0 190PS TDI flavours. I was impressed with the 1.4TSI but in my head feel like I should be getting the diesel for mpg reasons.

I've got a great deal sitting there on a 1.4TSI 4x4 but am concerned about mpg with the 4x4 and in some sense power when it is fully loaded up and I need to overtake on a motorway. The TSI has a lot of extra options and for a bit more money I can buy diesel with less options.

Really not that worried about buying a diesel, I'm more worried the 1.4TSI 4x4 is thirsty. I'm told it will try and use 2 wheel drive as much as possible - is that true? Really I'm after some owner experience. The car will do 20 mile each way to/from work, weekend children taxi and some long runs into europe and weekends away in the UK.

 

I figured some of you guys might be best places to provide a steer. I'm buying something but what to go for is the problem?

 

thanks.

 

[silver1011]

Welcome to Briskoda

 

The additional fuel consumption on the 4x4 is more down to the extra weight rather than the amount of time it drives more than two wheels.

 

Don't get stuck on the engine size. The 1.4 TSI has 150PS so plenty of power, even for an SUV, even one carrying passengers and luggage, but as you've probably discovered it has very different driving characteristics compared to the diesel.

 

The 190PS diesel has more power but a few owners report an annoying lag between pressing the accelerator and the power arriving.

 

40 miles per day, x5 days = 200 miles per week / 800 miles per month.

 

Add another 100 miles for each weekend = 400 miles per month.

 

Plus an extra 1,000 miles for your overseas travel.

 

That's an annual mileage of just over 15,000 miles. Not enough in my opinion to offset the higher purchase price of the diesel engine plus the extra cost for diesel fuel versus petrol. I'm pretty sure with your relatively short commute you won't notice much difference in fuel economy between the petrol and diesel.

 

Diesels need to be pounding motorways every day, regularly towing or spending lots of time off road (extra torque) to pay off their extra expense.

 

It all boils down to the driving experience, fitted options and price.

 

Take an extended test drive in both.

 

Don't delay, demand for the 1.4 TSI is high (production has stopped so there aren't any more coming) making current stocks in short supply.

 

Edited 25 May, 2018 by silver1011

[neilsupermac]

Thanks very much silver1011 - that's really helpful and some great points. I have driven both for about 30 mins each. I did notice that flooring the diesel there was a large lag...that said I'm more concerned about higher speed pull and over taking. On a blind test I would never have believed the 1.4TSI was a ..... 1.4TSI it certainly didn't feel under powered but I didn't get out on the motorway. I just did the sums and you're right..I'd need to do 10's of 1000's of miles to first get the extra money spent on the diesel....

[TheRobinK]

7 minutes ago, neilsupermac said:

I'm told it will try and use 2 wheel drive as much as possible - is that true?

 

Yes that is true. The haldex system of the Kodiaq is 90% or so front wheel drive when all is well - it only increasingly engages the rear wheels  when slip is detected. So, in general terms, you only pay the mpg penalty for all wheel drive 1) it is required due to detected loss of traction and 2) the increased weight of the system over FWD only (I've heard 85-100kg).

[neilsupermac]

5 minutes ago, TheRobinK said:

 

Yes that is true. The haldex system of the Kodiaq is 90% or so front wheel drive when all is well - it only increasingly engages the rear wheels  when slip is detected. So, in general terms, you only pay the mpg penalty for all wheel drive 1) it is required due to detected loss of traction and 2) the increased weight of the system over FWD only (I've heard 85-100kg).

Interesting and very useful .... thanks.

 

[BoxerBoy]

4 hours ago, silver1011 said:

Welcome to Briskoda

 

The additional fuel consumption on the 4x4 is more down to the extra weight rather than the amount of time it drives more than two wheels.

 

Don't get stuck on the engine size. The 1.4 TSI has 150PS so plenty of power, even for an SUV, even one carrying passengers and luggage, but as you've probably discovered it has very different driving characteristics compared to the diesel.

 

The 190PS diesel has more power but a few owners report an annoying lag between pressing the accelerator and the power arriving.

 

40 miles per day, x5 days = 200 miles per week / 800 miles per month.

 

Add another 100 miles for each weekend = 400 miles per month.

 

Plus an extra 1,000 miles for your overseas travel.

 

That's an annual mileage of just over 15,000 miles. Not enough in my opinion to offset the higher purchase price of the diesel engine plus the extra cost for diesel fuel versus petrol. I'm pretty sure with your relatively short commute you won't notice much difference in fuel economy between the petrol and diesel.

 

Diesels need to be pounding motorways every day, regularly towing or spending lots of time off road (extra torque) to pay off their extra expense.

 

It all boils down to the driving experience, fitted options and price.

 

Take an extended test drive in both.

 

Don't delay, demand for the 1.4 TSI is high (production has stopped so there aren't any more coming) making current stocks in short supply.

 

 

Indeed.

 

Surely if both cars have been test driven in an enthusiastic manner, then a clear winner will be obvious.

 

The MPG cost over the period of ownership is just a simple calculation.

 

Annual servicing should be clear.

 

There’s a high chance the car will be on PCP or PCH so will be thrown away after 3 years.

 

If the monthly cost for either is affordable, then it comes down to which one is the better drive.

 

I certainly enjoy both a 1.4 petrol in a 2WD car and 190 diesel in a 4x4 car, but have a sneaky suspicion that a 1.4 petrol 4x4 would fail to meet my expectations when loaded up for a longer trip.

 

ps - with the right mode selected there should never be a problem with “the power arriving” on request. Many of us learned the hard way that ECO and STOP/START are the spawn of the devil 

[MrTrilby]

I went through the same dilemma, only torn between the 2.0 TSI and the 190 TDI, as I also wanted something that would be relaxing on a motorway journey when fully laden. Similar to you, I have a 25 mile each way commute on rural A roads, although with double the annual mileage. My experience is that the diesel takes a long time to warm up (6-10 miles depending on outside temperature), so if your regular journeys are this length or less, the fuel economy will be disappointing, and the petrol a much better bet. For my 25 miles so far (900 miles on the clock now) the worst I’ve seen is 42mpg and best is 49MPG. I am very pleased with how effortless the 190 feels for overtaking - it breezes past with barely any revs. The 150 by contrast is more than up to it, but makes a lot more fuss about it. For your mileage, I wouldn’t buy the diesel expecting to save money, particularly if you’re comparing with the 1.4/1.5 TSi. In terms of off boost lethargy, driven gently you can feel the lack of power in the 190 below 1700rpm, but I find that driven with more vigour the DSG snaps down to a lower gear so the turbo is up to speed. Above 1700 there is a little lag, but I’ve not driven the turbo petrol to compare, and I don’t find it an issue on what is really a big relaxed car anyway. Driven with even more vigour, you have the gearbox in sport mode anyway, and then it doesn’t drop the revs below 1700 anyway.

 

Personally I don’t find Eco mode or stop-start annoying. They both have their place where appropriate. I’m particularly impressed how the stop-start uses the front radar sensor to spot the car in front moving off, and then restarts the engine ready for you. Coasting in Eco mode seems to save significant fuel (for me) in the right conditions.

[Yogi-Bear]

3 minutes ago, MrTrilby said:

I’m particularly impressed how the stop-start uses the front radar sensor to spot the car in front moving off, and then restarts the engine ready for you.

 

I hate this. In traffic queues, it restarts the engine even if the car in front moves literally six inches. I'm not about to shuffle forward six inches, so I'd rather the engine remained stopped until I decide I'm going to move forward.

 

Yes, I can see how it's all very clever and the reasons for doing it, but it's far too sensitive.

[Ootohere]

On / Off buttons just so good.

Choices to suit different peoples needs at different locations and circumstances are a great thing.

[ace_dynamo]

I have the 190ps but would have taken the 1.4 if one had been in stock with my base requirements of extras and colour as I really don't do enough miles to justify diesel - however I got it for a very good price so that negates some of the cost comparisons. 

 

There can be a lag but I normally just knock the lever into sport mode if I know I'm hitting a patch of driving where I need instant power. 

 

Haven't regretted getting the diesel but with only a 20mins country road commute I'm trying to avoid looking at the mpg...getting more miles out of a tank than my old X-TRAIL though 

[neilsupermac]

Thanks to everyone for the replies - really helpful. Ultimately this has come down to a power issue I think. I don't do enough miles to make the money back on the extra cost for the diesel...we might break even over 4 years. It's more about the power at cruise or up a hill with a full load. I've got a reasonable deal on a 1.4TSI 4x4 150 and I think I'm going to go for it....I was trying to avoid making a decision I might regret but I don't think there is a wrong answer here.

 

[Kenny R]

If you want Power and don’t really want Diesel, why did you not consider the 2.0    Tsi 180? 

[neilsupermac]

4 minutes ago, Kenny R said:

If you want Power and don’t really want Diesel, why did you not consider the 2.0    Tsi 180? 

I could but I have a deal on the table for only specific cars ... that said I could enquire about a 2.0 TSI ..

[silver1011]

2 hours ago, neilsupermac said:

Thanks to everyone for the replies - really helpful. Ultimately this has come down to a power issue I think. I don't do enough miles to make the money back on the extra cost for the diesel...we might break even over 4 years. It's more about the power at cruise or up a hill with a full load. I've got a reasonable deal on a 1.4TSI 4x4 150 and I think I'm going to go for it....I was trying to avoid making a decision I might regret but I don't think there is a wrong answer here.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't regret it. The 150PS 1.4 TSI is a well regarded engine, I think its an absolute peach.

 

On our test drive I couldn't tell when the start stop was activating, it's so quiet, no engine noise at all in the cabin, no vibration either. If it wasn't for the rev counter dropping to zero I'd be oblivious. This is in stark contrast to our current 150PS 2.0 TDI in a MkIII Octavia. It's a refined engine, relatively quiet and smooth, or so I thought until I drove the 1.4 TSI, then it's positively agricultural!

 

I actually placed my order earlier than I'd planned (late March) to ensure I got one of the last 1.4 TSI build slots. The replacement engine (1.5 TSI with a gasoline particulate filter) is supposed to be a good engine too, but it's primarily focus was on emissions reductions. I'm sceptical as there are often trade-offs i.e. long term durability etc. The 1.5 TSI in the Octavia got off to a bad start, luckily a remap fixed the issues on early cars.

 

I can't wait until we pick ours up (15th June).

 

Edited 26 May, 2018 by silver1011

[jasoncmiles]

It's a big car, if you want an engine that delivers torque with ease on the motorways when fully loaded then the diesel really was the only option for me. The petrol 1.4 was lacking in power and when I had my family on board the engine revved away furiously with the DSG box, specially on steeper hills. Just lacked the power in my view for a family of 5 and long trips. I suppose if you are used to less grunt and not familiar with the way diesels deliver power it will suffice. Everyone's view is their own. Economy on the 190 for me is 41mpg average long term consumption and that is a lot of short journeys. I can get a shade off 50mpg on a long motorway run. Short of diesel I'd choose the 2 litre petrol but the petrol engines seem to be thirsty reading the forums.

[silver1011]

21 minutes ago, jasoncmiles said:

...when I had my family on board the engine revved away furiously with the DSG box, specially on steeper hills.

 

I suspect that's as much to do with the DSG gearbox than it is the engine.

 

Whilst more power / torque is always welcome, 150PS isn't under-powered for a modern family car.

 

A move from petrol to diesel, or vice-versa, requires a change in driving style.

 

I also think some people still use cubic capacity as a gauge for engine performance. Whilst still valid it isn't as clean cut as it once was. There is a mind set with some that a 1.4, or even a 1.6 engine isn't enough for a car the size of the Kodiaq. Times have changed. It is (IMO).

 

You can buy a 1.0 125PS petrol Ford Mondeo, which weighs more than a Kodiaq, to pound the motorways in, not that it appeals to me.

[Yogi-Bear]

12 hours ago, silver1011 said:

A move from petrol to diesel, or vice-versa, requires a change in driving style.

 

This. A million times this. Going from the diesel Octavia vRS to the petrol Kodiaq has pretty much forced me to learn how to drive again... admittedly also not helped with going from manual to DSG! At first I kept screaming at the car to change gear earlier, just because that's what I was used to doing in the vRS. But now, I just let it get on with its thing, and it performs wonderfully - and the different drive/gearbox modes really do go along with which driving style you want at that particular moment.

 

And as for being underpowered. Err, no. Yogi popped his Ikea cherry yesterday, and quite happily dragged the entire family (4 of us) and a boot full of flat-pack up the M5 without moaning at all. Yes, he's no drag racer, but I've yet to find a situation where he hasn't been able to cope. But no, I wouldn't want to tow a caravan with him; if I did, I would have gone for a diesel, but that's just sensible. Like the age-old iPhone vs. Android argument - it's what works for you, not what anyone else thinks is best.

 

Anyway... on the topic of Ikea, 7 seats FTW! 2+1+1 config, leaving half the car to take full length packages (2m wardrobe doors, for example) without having to resort to the roof rack. The only problem I foresee now is that my usual excuse of "we're not getting all that, it won't fit in the car" is never going to work again .

[neilsupermac]

Been a great help this thread, weighing it all up, I've pressed the button on a 1.4tsi 4x4 Edition with some extra options. In the I reckon power will be fine and the extra money for buying diesel wasn't financially sensible. Should be collecting next weekend. 

 

Thanks for all the comments. 

[silver1011]

Ah, the joys of buying a car already built, immediate delivery!

 

Enjoy. If in the excitement you remember to take any pictures, be sure to share 

[exFiesta]

On 5/27/2018 at 09:30, WiggosSideburns said:

 

This. A million times this. Going from the diesel Octavia vRS to the petrol Kodiaq has pretty much forced me to learn how to drive again... admittedly also not helped with going from manual to DSG! At first I kept screaming at the car to change gear earlier, just because that's what I was used to doing in the vRS. But now, I just let it get on with its thing, and it performs wonderfully - and the different drive/gearbox modes really do go along with which driving style you want at that particular moment.

 

And as for being underpowered. Err, no. Yogi popped his Ikea cherry yesterday, and quite happily dragged the entire family (4 of us) and a boot full of flat-pack up the M5 without moaning at all. Yes, he's no drag racer, but I've yet to find a situation where he hasn't been able to cope. But no, I wouldn't want to tow a caravan with him; if I did, I would have gone for a diesel, but that's just sensible. Like the age-old iPhone vs. Android argument - it's what works for you, not what anyone else thinks is best.

 

Anyway... on the topic of Ikea, 7 seats FTW! 2+1+1 config, leaving half the car to take full length packages (2m wardrobe doors, for example) without having to resort to the roof rack. The only problem I foresee now is that my usual excuse of "we're not getting all that, it won't fit in the car" is never going to work again .

 

Did the same 2 + 1 + 1 today!

[McGyles]

It's all about the speed. If you drive arround town at 60km/h both engines will drink virtualy the same (the 1.4 petrol will have a bit better fuel economy). Once you hit motorway speeds arround 100km/h the 190PS diesel will start to shine and you will see the same consumption as in town arround 45 MPG, while the petrol economy will drop from 46MPG in town to 42 MPG. If cruising on highway from 140km/h to 160km/h the diesel will do 40MPG, while the petrol will do arround 35MPG.

 

For town, short trips and highway cruising at 100km/h pick the petrol. For longer trips, higher speeds and driving fully loaded pick the diesel.

 

I have a 2.0TDI 190PS and have avg fuel consumption at 40MPG and mostly drive in S mode. I do alot of highway cruising at 140km/h and drive quite fast on B roads over hilly terrain and there even the 190PS feels a bit underpowered sometimes when overtaking up a hill, but you have to understand that the 190PS has a bigger turbo which fully spools at higher RPM (arround 1700-1800 compared to 1400-1500 of the 150PS versions), so under those RPM there is a bit of lag which there isn't on the 150PS diesel/petrol engines, but the 190PS starts to shine above 1800RPM and puls realy nicely. Even when overtaking on the highway you can leave it in 7th gear, if above 1800RPM.

 

It all depends on your driving style, but if your are going to do alot of miles with 3+ people and their luggage the diesel is the way to go, or the 2.0TSI, but that one drinks alot above 100km/h.

[neilsupermac]

It's a halfway house, got shortish commute with 1 person, weekend family bus and some longer trips. Convinced myself diesel wasn't financially sensible and also that the 150PS 1.4 has enough power for what I need. Its a done deal now. 

[Ootohere]

Take a 2.0 TDI SCR out in a small town, like a village / town or even a city and start it and drive 3-4 miles for 7 days and you might use 4.546 litres for that 21-28 miles. miles or so.

Do the same with 1.4 TSI and maybe use less petrol than the diesel does.    Same with a 1.0, 1.5 or even a 2.0 TSI.

 That is what lots of peoples town driving might be when not driving out of town.   There is where a Petrol / Hybrid can be a good all rounder.

 

VW Group just needs to get on with production on Hybrids in various sizes.

Edited 1 June, 2018 by Offski