A friend of mine from back home has a strange issue with his Felicia 1.3 on carburetor (basically it's an old school Favorit engine with carburetor, distributor, coil, timing chain.

 

He says that while driving normally the engine stalled. Then he tried starting the engine a while with no luck. The weird part is he says that cranking is very fast, as if the spark plugs are out and there is no compression. He didn't do a test for no compression but rather he feels there is no mechanical load on starter when cranking and no start.

 

I've told him to take out the distributor cap and also the rockers cover and check if there is correct rocking and rotation while cranking. There is. So the timing chain is apparently OK. So it is the gear/crown of the flywheel. I mean it didn't come loose.

 

Then I've told him to put everything back and check for spark. There is. Then he looked at all spark plugs and they were all wet. So there is fuel. The last things I've asked him to do were a compression test and to look for a big vacuum leak. I'm waiting for his answer.

 

What other ideas do you have?

Carb fault that's caused it to overfuel heavily? Bore wash spoiling piston ring sealing?

Update:

He tried to do a compression test but the result was inconclusive due to (most probably) a dying starter drive mechanism. The starter engages for a couple of seconds then tends to whir gradually, giving the false impression there is no mechanical load. The needle of the compression tester bounces to 4 bar on first stroke then to 8 bar on second stroke then the starter drive 'slips' and whirs making the needle rest between 8 -9 bar. That happens identically on all 4 cylinders. It is obvious that the reading is not reliable because the engine did not rotate enough to build a true compression reading.

 

I've 'interrogated' further my friend squeezing every bit on information from him. Eventually he told me there is a strong rattle coming from the timing chain cover when the engine is cranking. Exactly when the starter starts to accelerate (as explained) the rattling becomes horrible, something like steel nuts in a tin can. I slapped him over the head (virtually) for missing to tell me such big detail...

 

So, that makes me think something went very bad in the timing chain/gears area. It may be a combination of two faults: 1) the starter drive mechanism slips thus can't keep up spinning the engine quick enough and 2) the timing is haywire. I've told him to borrow a known good starter and to look at timing chain/gears then move on from there. He will probably send me photos to post them here.

 

2 hours ago, Wino said:

Carb fault that's caused it to overfuel heavily? Bore wash spoiling piston ring sealing?

Very good observation. I don't know yet if there is a carb overflow too but repeated cranking could have washed the oil film from the cylinder walls thus destroying the ring sealing.

Update:

The timing cover came off. Shock and awe for the status of the timing chain...

 

The sprockets are even in a more shocking state. The small one has worn, bent teeth. The big one has almost completely shaved teeth 

 

Here is for comparison how new sprockets look like.

 

The chain got looser and looser over time then it started chewing the sprockets up to the point it started to jump teeth thus messing the timing big time. No wonder the engine refused to start. Also imagine how the engine oil looks like. The metal shavings from the sprockets had to go somewhere...

 

I'm curious next about the state of the starter drive. Awaiting your comments.

If the timing chain has jumped the teeth on the sprocket there is a good chance the valves had made contact with the pistons. Valve damage or bent push rods could be the problem. 

I have to disagree. Felicia engine with carburetor is a non-interference engine.

OK, in that case the cranking with no compression is most likely due to the valve timing being incorrect. With the new chain and sprockets fitted and the timing set the engine should start.

I'm less sure about my  overfuelling hypothesis now...

 

How many miles has that car done?

 

I think a sump and oil pick-up pipe clean may be advisable, and a cut-down of the old oil filter may be interesting!

12 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Update:

The timing cover came off. Shock and awe for the status of the timing chain...

 

The sprockets are even in a more shocking state. The small one has worn, bent teeth. The big one has almost completely shaved teeth 

 

Here is for comparison how new sprockets look like.

 

The chain got looser and looser over time then it started chewing the sprockets up to the point it started to jump teeth thus messing the timing big time. No wonder the engine refused to start. Also imagine how the engine oil looks like. The metal shavings from the sprockets had to go somewhere...

 

I'm curious next about the state of the starter drive. Awaiting your comments.

the smaller sprocket seams salvageable ?

As a motorcyclist of too many years DO NOT use a new chain on old sprockets and the other way round the old sprocket will soon wear the new chain if you are going to do the job then do it right and not cut corners.

Looking at the state of this engine change the oil regular engine oil is cheaper than engine parts, even clean cheep engine is better than old sludge.

43 minutes ago, mikefelicia said:

As a motorcyclist of too many years DO NOT use a new chain on old sprockets and the other way round the old sprocket will soon wear the new chain if you are going to do the job then do it right and not cut corners.

Looking at the state of this engine change the oil regular engine oil is cheaper than engine parts, even clean cheep engine is better than old sludge.

Correct. Always change both sprockets and chain together, anything less is false economy.

14 hours ago, Wino said:

How many miles has that car done?

I think a sump and oil pick-up pipe clean may be advisable, and a cut-down of the old oil filter may be interesting!

The car has 100,000 miles. My friend didn't took pictures of the oil sump but he told me there was a lot of metal shavings in the oil he drained. I hope he didn't toss away the old oil filter for doing some surgery on it.

 

10 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

the smaller sprocket seams salvageable ?

Nope. Here is a closeup. A timing kit is cheap. It doesn't worth it.

 

By the way, there are two timing kits available to buy. One is for Felicia before 08.97 (part number 6U0198026) and the other is is for Felicia from 08.97 on (part number 6U0198026A). The small sprocket has a bigger inner hole for old type kit. As you can see my friend ordered the wrong kit  ...

7 hours ago, RicardoM said:

 

The small sprocket has a bigger inner hole for old type kit. As you can see my friend ordered the wrong kit  ...

Take it to a lathe to get it trimmed down its going to be very cheap

15 hours ago, mikefelicia said:

As a motorcyclist of too many years DO NOT use a new chain on old sprockets and the other way round the old sprocket will soon wear the new chain if you are going to do the job then do it right and not cut corners.

Looking at the state of this engine change the oil regular engine oil is cheaper than engine parts, even clean cheep engine is better than old sludge.

Well depending on their condition that is

51 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Take it to a lathe to get it trimmed down its going to be very cheap

You will also have to cut a new keyway. 

2 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Take it to a lathe to get it trimmed down its going to be very cheap

It's not me having the problem. I am working in Canada for a while. It's my friend's car back in the Dominican Republic. I'm just sharing his issue with you. He returned the wrong kit and ordered the right one.

Ref the starter, the timing chain and valve timing need sorting first, but I have seen starter ring gears worn out at the 2 points where the pinion normally engages, so if the starter motor still spins without turning the engine after the timing is sorted it might be worth trying looking through the hole the pinion enters the bellhousing through for heavily worn ring gear teeth, and confirming the diagnosis by pushing the car about 1 foot (30cm) in gear, and seeing if the starter spins the engine normally.

Sure, the starter is next on the list. He'll see if it's the ring gear teeth or the starter drive/clutch etc.

8 hours ago, moley said:

You will also have to cut a new keyway. 

correct but its easy enough in a proffesional machine shop

The starter proved to be OK. It rotated so fast because the timing chain was very loose and the teeth of the sprockets very worn that there was almost no mechanical load.

 

How loose was the timing chain? Well, see for yourself. The chain made a deep groove in its cover.

 

An this pat of chewe

And this is part of all chewed metal found inside oil pan.

12 hours ago, RicardoM said:

And this is part of all chewed metal found inside oil pan.

 

does the felly have a magnet of any sort in the oil pan?
and actually it is a shame that they did not install a tensioner from the factory i know they said to change it every 80.000km but in cars like mine with all the aircondition and power steering assemblies its a nightmare to do

On 19/08/2018 at 14:33, mikefelicia said:

As a motorcyclist of too many years DO NOT use a new chain on old sprockets and the other way round the old sprocket will soon wear the new chain if you are going to do the job then do it right and not cut corners.

Looking at the state of this engine change the oil regular engine oil is cheaper than engine parts, even clean cheep engine is better than old sludge.

Can you not measure chain wear and when nn% wear/'elongation' is reached then swap the chain, thus preserving the life of the sprockets? 

I'm asking because I do this with bicycles and the life of the sprockets and chainrings are prolonged significantly.  Though a chain is usually the cheapest component which it may not be (when factoring in time and labor) when it comes to motorcycles and cars. 

1 hour ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

it is a shame that they did not install a tensioner from the factory

 

Fun fact: pretensioner was designed in 1968 for "facelift" of Skoda 1100MB. There even were chain covers with space for tensioner, but it was never fitted

@penguin17 Car timing chains are usually under covers, so it's not as easy to measure wear as it is with bikes.