Real world.  Started at 6.30 am this morning with full charge.  Luckily got to Edinburgh airport and got on the only rapid working and did a full charge. Nobody else wanted on.  Got to Stranraer and got on a charger and got a full charge.    Now at Dunblane.   Stirling was before this and one rapid broken and 2 occupied so I never waited.  Came to Dunblane.  2 rapids.  A Tesla has been on one for 2 hours and an Audi on the other for 70 minutes.  No drivers.  So I am on a 7kW as I only had 17 miles range.  I need to get over 30 before I head to Perth park and ride to hopefully get on a rapid.   I would go the the Hilton in Dunblane and pay but there are roadworks and I did not want to chance moving losing this slow charger and BP not working.  If any issue at Perth park and ride I will go pay at BP or Ionity to get enough charge to get home.    The greed of those that overstay on chargers that are free and limited is the issue.   Staying on and being with the car is a different thing as you can unplug and let others charge if they arrive needing to. 

 

Edinburgh Airport Park & Ride Chargers.

7 x 50 Kw chargers and 30 7 Kw.

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

Ps.   Joy.  13 miles further on in Auchterarder.  2 new Rapids next to the old one and a couple of 7kW,s and working.  So on with a tap of the card and charging quickly.    Minus 2 degrees outside but now heating up full and I will charge untill it slows right down so maybe 30 minutes then home an hour after that.  Heating will be on and seat and wheel and car will get plugged in at home overnight as it is going to be a cold one and heading north tomorrow.   All that is needed really is chargers working in well lit places near shops if poss. Toilets would be great.

Also not cars left on limited chargers overnight.  Larry.  Happy as.   

 

 

Edited 10 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

12 hours ago, roottoot said:

Ps.   Joy.  13 miles further on in Auchterarder.  2 new Rapids next to the old one and a couple of 7kW,s and working.  So on with a tap of the card and charging quickly.    Minus 2 degrees outside but now heating up full and I will charge untill it slows right down so maybe 30 minutes then home an hour after that.  Heating will be on and seat and wheel and car will get plugged in at home overnight as it is going to be a cold one and heading north tomorrow.   All that is needed really is chargers working in well lit places near shops if poss. Toilets would be great.

Also not cars left on limited chargers overnight.  Larry.  Happy as.   

 

 

So what range does the e-corsa approximately show when you are starting journeys with the ambient around the zero degrees ?  I am somewhat surprised, despite my pre-buying research, that the reported range the Zoe tells me goes down as much as it is showing with the lower temperatures. My reported miles per kw has dropped from near 5 miles per kw in the warm early September weather to the range of 3.5 to 4, 3.5 miles per KWh is I am driving at neat Motorway speeds and 3.5 miles per kWh if I am cruising at 50/55 on the A roads.  https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Effect-of-temperature-on-Li-ion-battery-capacity_fig2_330142356

 

What I am surprised at is that manufacturers should honestly say that their battery capacity is say 50 kWh at 20C but only 80% of that at 0 C and 50% at -20C temperatures.  I can now understand why our engineers at Bollore keep our batteries at 50C or so, thermal insulate them and keep them cooking at these temperatures when the vehicle is expected to be ready for use, but the is for Lithium Metal Polyimide rather than Lithium-ion.  Whilst manufacturers have been honest about the winter range they have really fully explained than in comparative terms one "fuel" tank shrinks to three quarters size when cold and maybe down to half when very cold.   Perhaps the solution is to keep the EV in room temperature garages at home and work and make sure the battery pack stays at 25 to 40 C when running on the road  ??

 

 

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by lol-lol

After 5 miles the dash shows 2.5 miles per kWh and the centre screen is showing 2.7 miles,

by 20 miles at no more than 60 mph it is at 3.1 on the dash and 3.2 on the screen.  This is at freezing or below.

I started off at 98% showing 68 miles range and 30 miles later that went to 99 miles range.

After 90 miles driven i had 33 miles range available.

 

Motorway solo or with a passenger is 2.7 miles.

  Only the average speed camera 60 mph area on the west cost (A77) with ambient temp at around 4-6 *oC had me getting 3.5-3.7 Miles per kWh.

 

Trip home started off showing 78 miles range & 75% and 45 miles later it was showing 50 miles range.

Climb into Perth, regen all the way down through Perth increased the range.

That was back on 30 miles of the same route as in the morning but the ambient temp was minus 4 and the car was in Sport but driving below the NSL as not salting or gritting had been done.

 

Centre Screen is correct on the energy in comparison to the cars dash which eventually might catch up or continues to show .2 or .5 miles / kWh less. 

That is the reading the Range is based on and hence pretty much wrong.

I go by the centre screens Energy use.

 

Edit.

Dash showing that it was 2.8 miles / kWh when i parked up after the 45 miles.

The centre screen was at 3.1 but has now cleared.

3*oC outside now and 98% charged and showing 118 miles range. 

 

PS

Going to take the Roof Bars and bike carrier off tomorrow and see how things are on the same roads once back at the same temps as it is going to be milder this week so no direct comparison can be made.

A bike on the roof of my car in low ambient temps would likely half the range...

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

5 hours ago, roottoot said:

After 5 miles the dash shows 2.5 miles per kWh and the centre screen is showing 2.7 miles,

by 20 miles at no more than 60 mph it is at 3.1 on the dash and 3.2 on the screen.  This is at freezing or below.

I started off at 98% showing 68 miles range and 30 miles later that went to 99 miles range.

After 90 miles driven i had 33 miles range available.

Motorway solo or with a passenger is 2.7 miles.

  Only the average speed camera 60 mph area on the west cost (A77) with ambient temp at around 4-6 *oC had me getting 3.5-3.7 Miles per kWh.

Trip home started off showing 78 miles range & 75% and 45 miles later it was showing 50 miles range.

Climb into Perth, regen all the way down through Perth increased the range.

That was back on 30 miles of the same route as in the morning but the ambient temp was minus 4 and the car was in Sport but driving below the NSL as not salting or gritting had been done.

Centre Screen is correct on the energy in comparison to the cars dash which eventually might catch up or continues to show .2 or .5 miles / kWh less. 

That is the reading the Range is based on and hence pretty much wrong.

I go by the centre screens Energy use.

Edit.

Dash showing that it was 2.8 miles / kWh when i parked up after the 45 miles.

The centre screen was at 3.1 but has now cleared.

3*oC outside now and 98% charged and showing 118 miles range. 

PS

Going to take the Roof Bars and bike carrier off tomorrow and see how things are on the same roads once back at the same temps as it is going to be milder this week so no direct comparison can be made.

A bike on the roof of my car in low ambient temps would likely half the range...

 

Do you mean 168 miles of range starting at 98%, surely not 68 miles ??

Either way 98 or 198 the range calculation of these EV's seems to be a bit too wild on their predictions.

For our smaller EVs surely 2.5 miles/kWh is hard to get lower than unless one is driving like one stole it.

 

The whole matter of lower range in the cooling weather create questions that is not brought to attention of the new owners.

Whilst there is little point keeping the battery at 100% as the colder weather rolls in and the battery will "lose" power if it is left outside in the ambient external temperature but this can be somewhat countered  if one starts the pre journey charge at a point just before when it is calculated to top the battery off from where it is showing to be to 100% as the charging process will warm the battery and get it to accept as much charge as possible at this somewhat elevated temperature and then, of course, to "pre-condition" the climate (and battery partly), by switching on the climate system half hour before journey start whilst still connected to the main charger.

 

There seems to be loads of news about the lithium batteries of cars being cooled during charging, as the Hyundai/Kia seem to need as they will only run at the 200 kwh charge rate for a new minutes at a time before running cooling processes at the charge rate to drop well below 100 kWh and then only to click back up to over 200 kWh when the cooling bring the temp back down to well below 50 C presumably.  Also the charge rate of the new standard range Teslas ie without the cobalt, is charging at the rates I would expect from the Zoe.

 

Totally loved driving and owning the Zoe but I cannot recall and other time just how much brain has had to work to plan and think through journeys when one relies on a EV, especially in winter.  My Clio has gone out to one daughter whilst she works at Alton and my son has been using the Fabia so I only have the Zoe and that is a slightly scary situation to be left with a car that is saying it may not be able to do the 175 miles down to Plymouth where elderly relatively lives and I want to be able to get their in 3 hours or less.  Food for thought and I thought international logistics and customs were quite complex !  

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by lol-lol

No, 

the range was at 68 miles as a max all week last week when just charging 8-15 kWh every day and only doing 6 miles a day.  

6 or 10 x 0.7 mile trips a day and the car showing 1.4 - 1.7 miles / kWh for a week.  

 

Never changed range just percentage showing when charging. 

So still showed 68 miles before setting off even though the battery had only been taken to showing 100% the night before. 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

26 minutes ago, roottoot said:

No range was at 68 miles all week last week when just charging 5-10 kWh every day and doing 6 miles a day.  

So still showed 68 miles before setting off. 

 

Surely this is not proper and Vauxhall /Stellantis should not pretend this is acceptable under the Sale of Goods Act in the UK ?

They should offer or make provision to sell the Nordic version (which I presume they have as Renault and other do) with battery heater as it clearly needs it in Northern Scotland to operate as and effective mode of transport I expect you agree ?

Article on SpeakEV echo your report but it does not make the flashing up of the display showing 99 miles or less on car given a WLTP range of over 200 miles that becomes less than half, reported, when a bit less than zero Celsius, maybe if it was lower than -20C I might accept this but zero and a bit below if not uncommon in the UK.  Again, perhaps we should be offered the cold climate battery warming option, or it should be standard, for the UK market.  

 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/translated-norwegian-test-of-corsa-e-range-in-summer-and-winter.163786/

 

&

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by lol-lol

There are 2 software updates that Arnold Clark / Vauxhall call Recalls.

The car is not going in until i hear that they actually work as not for others.

A/C messed up connectivity between car and phone last time they had it.   The Dealership 0.7 miles away can not service the car as it is a Motability Car and they are no longer a Vauxhall Dealer only KIA and a Motability Dealer and used Vauxhall Service Centre.

 

Car was on the 7kW charger twice on Thursday.    Range never changed.

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

1 minute ago, roottoot said:

There are 2 software updates that Arnold Clark / Vauxhall call Recalls.

The car is not going in until i hear that they actually work as not for others.

A/C messed up connectivity between car an phone last time they had it.   The Dealership 0.7 miles away can not service the car as it is a Motability Car and they are no longer a Vauxhall Dealer only KIA and a Motability Dealer and used Vauxhall Service Centre.

 

Car was on the 7kW charger twice on Thursday.    Range never changed.

 

It defies the laws of thermodynamics.

I am fearful of charging my Zoe, particularly the last 10% or so, in fear of doing some chemical long term damage but if the vehicle is not as advertised then whacking it on the chargers and if it does shorten the battery life and one can force the maker to replace or repair the battery back then that is what should happen I suppose.

 

Renault promise battery will be at least 80% after 4 years and still have 70% life at 8 years I understand.  True battery is 55 kWh in the Zoe but the lower 52 kWh amount is accessible by the user in the normal ways.  

 

After Renault's moves on withdrawing safety equipment due to chip shortages, and looking at most the old car company share prices one wonders who and what is going to be around at the end of this decade ?

 

 

 

Tesla & Norway.  

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57232252

May 2021.

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-convictions-in-norway-for-capping-model-s-voltage-confirmed-175601.html

 

 

I do not think he was in Sport when he floored it but in the comments he said he was.

 

No way do 2 6 footers fit in the rear with 2 6 footers in the front.  

B makes a lot of difference in slowing but you might not feel if left in B but use B just like dropping a gear in an Auto and it is almost one pedal driving other than to a full stop. 

I never use the brakes except to come to a total stop. 

Eco does not help increase range other than by killing the heating, you have to work the 80 ps  harder, and Normal is no more economic than sport at the same speeds, just feels dead as does steering. 

The Cruise Control is not as good for range as driving as CC does not have the regen happening. 

 

 

70% showing 70 miles or near can be real world. 

100% might only get you 100 miles or it could be 150 or 180.  it is all so variable, heat, weight, speed, roads and iffy displays.

I see the trip on the car in Ireland had never been reset since after done when the car had done 2 km when new.

 

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

@lol-lol Charge Place Scotland have not recorded my usage last night in Auchterarder but they have the 2 chargers at Dunblane.

The first being when on the AC next to the Tesla and my car was showing it was getting no charge then i went onto a 7kW AC.

 

The Ingilston Park and ride is weird.  I charged to 95% on the CCS and then unplugged and let a guy with a Jag use it and i put 4% in using the AC on the same charger and that ran at 7kW which is more than i was getting from 90% to 95%.

Often i stop charging CCS and fill the rest on AC if i am just sitting about waiting.  

 

The usual i get on a CCS if topping up to 98 or 99% before setting off is 33-35 kW in an hour or nearly.

33-35 kW from near empty is just a 30-35 minutes on a 50kW charger working well. 

 

Edited 11 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

13 hours ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lol Charge Place Scotland have not recorded my usage last night in Auchterarder but they have the 2 chargers at Dunblane.

The first being when on the AC next to the Tesla and my car was showing it was getting no charge then i went onto a 7kW AC.

 

The Ingilston Park and ride is weird.  I charged to 95% on the CCS and then unplugged and let a guy with a Jag use it and i put 4% in using the AC on the same charger and that ran at 7kW which is more than i was getting from 90% to 95%.

Often i stop charging CCS and fill the rest on AC if i am just sitting about waiting.  

 

The usual i get on a CCS if topping up to 98 or 99% before setting off is 33-35 kW in an hour or nearly.

33-35 kW from near empty is just a 30-35 minutes on a 50kW charger working well. 

 

I do like the AC supplies around all the way from 3.6 kWh right through to 22 kWh and I have yet to use a 50 kWh DC connector as I have a fear that every time I do will take a slice off the traction battery's capacity so looking to use the trickle 3.6 kWh charger I have at home as much as possible or the same one I have at my office at Heathrow which seem to only provide 3.6 kWh where marked as single or 3 phase.

 

I am thinking I will only occasional, once or twice a month push the battery up to 100% where it does its cell balancing as again I do not think I will push the usual charging I do to over 85 % as reports I read so do not do this in the depth of winter or as a regular event most of the year, perhaps except high summer, and the battery regen does not work in the 90 percents which is so important getting good miles per kWh.

 

The more one thinks about it the big conclusion I have is that charging during the day is best after a commute and not charging overnight to 100% as the temperature is falling.

 

will still search as to what is an ideal charge rate to get that several thousands recharges over the cars anticipated decade plus life but is that even the right thing to do as one hears of Nissan LEAFs getting a replacement battery from 22 or 30 up to 40 kWh is it not likely their will be a 75 kWh Zoe battery replacement in a few years which would be epic. 

 

What is a boy to do.

 

I will charge as required to do the trips I need to and during the trips and the car will be handed back in 21 months or sooner if it misbehaves.  That is just as many do now with EV,s they drive be those from their employment, leased or owned.   I spoke to a owner of a new Long Range MG on Thursday.  He had owned a Leaf and then a MG EV which he loved and he has just got the new Long Range.  He says it is not coping with the cold as well as his other car did over winters.  There is a greater drop than he had expected in range.  

 

This week i will probably use the car for 6-10 miles max per day & that will be an average speed of like 13 mph doing under a mile each time,

and then i will charge with double the kW each day has used until i am at 98% on Thursday night.  That will be on 7kW charging.

 

When at 98% on Thursday i will see what range is showing before then going on a long run.

When just in town it does work it out as just over 2 miles per kWh and might stick at 68 miles.

If i stick it on a 50 kW charger it will give the car a kick up the bum and the range would show nearer an range over 100 miles, probably 118 miles or 124.

 

 

Edited 12 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

On 12/12/2021 at 10:00, roottoot said:

I will charge as required to do the trips I need to and during the trips and the car will be handed back in 21 months or sooner if it misbehaves.  That is just as many do now with EV,s they drive be those from their employment, leased or owned.   I spoke to a owner of a new Long Range MG on Thursday.  He had owned a Leaf and then a MG EV which he loved and he has just got the new Long Range.  He says it is not coping with the cold as well as his other car did over winters.  There is a greater drop than he had expected in range.  

 

This week i will probably use the car for 6-10 miles max per day & that will be an average speed of like 13 mph doing under a mile each time,

and then i will charge with double the kW each day has used until i am at 98% on Thursday night.  That will be on 7kW charging.

 

When at 98% on Thursday i will see what range is showing before then going on a long run.

When just in town it does work it out as just over 2 miles per kWh and might stick at 68 miles.

If i stick it on a 50 kW charger it will give the car a kick up the bum and the range would show nearer an range over 100 miles, probably 118 miles or 124.

 

It is all about getting the battery warm ie circa 20C as that is when it electrical capacity is proper.

 

A per my graph this really low temperatures give a really low feedback on capacity ie range.

 

In these winter condition we really need to warm the car/battery up loads to give it the range or drive a bit and give it that kick of current to warm the battery pack up and get it to 20 C pack temperature.

 

It would be fine if we could store the car in a toastie garage and then just drive in to the cold air I think we would hardly see any winter affect other than genuine consumption via the heat pump, wipers, lights etc and a little bit of driving through the wetter colder air which is a little more dense.

 

 

14*oC today & getting warmer.   What a change in weather.

I find that the mid teens ambient is wonderful for miles / kWh.  I ended up chatting and the car was on the charger longer than i intended.

Later i will see how little energy is used today. 

 

@lol-lolI was chatting with a MG Hybrid owner that had actually sent messages to Rory about the item with him comparing running costs of a Corsa & a Corsa-e.   He has driven them and others and knows how ridiculous the figures given were.

 

 

 

Edited 15 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

Yep! Yesterday I averaged 3.2 mile/kWh on a 106 mile round trip. Almost summer consumption figure that is.

Exactly 1 hours plugged into the 7kW Podpoint at 10*oC ambient and 6.5 kWh taken in. 

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

Exactly 1 hours plugged into the 7kW Podpoint at 10*oC ambient and 6.5 kWh taken in. 

 

Ah but where does it go when the temperature drops 10 or 15 C and your battery capacity goes down from 50 kWh to 40 kWh ?

 

36 MJ of energy, just disappearing ?

 

Frost Giants ?

 

Where does 2.5 kWh escape to overnight or is there battery protection going on ?

 

I have never had the 50 kW battery empty but i have been down to showing 9 miles range which might be 3 kWh left and it would not take in 47 kWh.

 

45kWh usable only.  Just takes in 45 KWh.

 

..............................

I see that i have not taken more than 35 kWh on CPS chargers in the past while, but some sessions have not registered or i was maybe on someone elses account.

Free is still my favourite cost to charge.

Edited 16 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

Great having the range to do a trip like this without charging and options to charge if you want.

The £3.80 CPS charging is great in Moray,  it is a shame that so many are greedy about how long they leave there cars on them when they are local and only doing so to save paying at home.

If they stuck to just 60 minutes max at a time if they are abandoning the car and looking back to see if others want a charge it would be nice.

 

 

 

A good increase in range.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

A good increase in range

 

Good  points about the traction batteries being either refurbished or retired to battery banks.

 

Interesting Mr Llewelyn said he had only paid out £200 in servicing in ten years, I presume he was not doing the annual service ie safety  checks, pollen filter etc.  

 

I know from Renault website the Zoe is £299 for 3 years /30k miles compared to £499 3years /30k miles for ICE Renaults (excepts RSs which are more again).

 

Robert mentioned charging was slow and maybe the throttling due to battery temp was holding it back more rather than less, odd.

 

£200 servicing in 10 years is ridiculous, only way to achieve it is if he's got a mate at garage that changes pollen filter and brake fluid for him for £40 every 2 years. Otherwise he's not keeping to Nissan's service schedule.

 

He didn't actually say why he took it to Amsterdam for a new battery? Be easier to have it done in the UK. Even I'm aware of one firm offering such a service, without doing any research. Odd.

Youtube vids & the need for another story.

Availability of the battery, waiting lists at those that do the job. 

Those that do it in the UK have been in his vid and others, some of which have been posted on here.

 

Top vid April 2021.  Teamed up with the business in Holland. *See @ 15 minutes, 'His car had already had the battery replaced.*

 

Bottom vid Nov 2020.

 

 

 

Edited 29 December, 20214 yr by roottoot