EV real world range and cost to charge

[cheezemonkhai]

So at current rates, it's around £2-£3 per day, subject to weather/temperature just to be sat on the drive and a couple of trips to the shops.

 

I'm just looking at this as a whole picture:

 

- Relatively high price of ownership

- Cost of keeping the car eats into fuel/tax savings

- Tax savings are going to be short lived (They're talking per mile/per weight taxes)

- Large investment to keep costs down (Solar panels/battery)

- Range anxiety until public charging is sorted out.

 

Up sides:

- Fuel Security (With Solar Panels)

- Lower running costs (Particularly with Solar Panels/Battery)

- Cleaner

- In theory less to go wrong

- In theory cheaper servicing

 

Edited 16 February, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[PetrolDave]

13 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

- In theory less to go wrong

But instead of the ICE there are more complex electronics plus the traction battery and it's cooling/heating systems - all of which require currently scarce (and hence expensive) skills to diagnose and repair.

 

Don't forget too that there are still the same basic mechanics of suspension, wheel bearings, steering system, etc. to maintain as well as the same bodywork issues.

 

P.S. We'll still need crude oil to create the lubricants (oil and grease) for the bearings on EVs so EVs will not alleviate the need for drilling (even synthetic oils are actually remade from cracked components of crude oil).

[Ootohere]

@PetrolDave

Worth watching Sky TV's item this week on UK and Batteries and components..

 

The Graphite for Batteries is produced from Oil at the refinery in Humberside and then exported to China etc. 

https://news.sky.com/story/inside-the-arms-race-to-build-the-batteries-which-will-power-britain-12537246

 

 

 

 

 

@cheezemonkhai Currently £1 a day at worst to maybe do 5 miles a day and need 3.5 kWh @ 23 pence a kWh over 24 hours. 

Under £7 a week.  That is going to increase.

I am doing 6 under a mile trips a day and pretty low temperatures.

Edited 16 February, 2022 by roottoot

[wyx087]

58 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

But instead of the ICE there are more complex electronics plus the traction battery and it's cooling/heating systems - all of which require currently scarce (and hence expensive) skills to diagnose and repair.

 

Don't forget too that there are still the same basic mechanics of suspension, wheel bearings, steering system, etc. to maintain as well as the same bodywork issues.

 

P.S. We'll still need crude oil to create the lubricants (oil and grease) for the bearings on EVs so EVs will not alleviate the need for drilling (even synthetic oils are actually remade from cracked components of crude oil).

Unlike ICE, there are no (bi-)annual service requirement on those components.

Same suspension and the works, same cost on this front. Again, no strict annual service requirement on them.

So overall, EV is cheaper to service and less moving parts to go wrong.

 

P.S. how much drilling is needed for lubricant oil/tyres for 100k miles of driving? In contrast, how much drilling is needed for fossil fuel to cover the same distance, in addition to the lubricant/tyres. The aim is never zero drilling, that's impossible with current technology. The aim is to STOP BURNING STUFF like stone age people.

[cheezemonkhai]

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Unlike ICE, there are no (bi-)annual service requirement on those components.

Same suspension and the works, same cost on this front. Again, no strict annual service requirement on them.

So overall, EV is cheaper to service and less moving parts to go wrong.

 

P.S. how much drilling is needed for lubricant oil/tyres for 100k miles of driving? In contrast, how much drilling is needed for fossil fuel to cover the same distance, in addition to the lubricant/tyres. The aim is never zero drilling, that's impossible with current technology. The aim is to STOP BURNING STUFF like stone age people.

 

Indeed, the thing I was talking about was a lower cost, due to the lack of oil change and less waste from filters etc.

One car I looked at needed a bi-annual service/check a bit like the extended service of VW, a change of SOS battery every 4 years and a replacement of the battery coolant fluid at 5 years. When I priced up of paying for all the service vs a tyre free maintainance plan it was nowhere near close and on speaking to the dealer a new maintainance plan for EV is being created as the manufacturer realised it was a bit of a joke.

 

The 2 yearly check is brake fluid, a visual check and a battery check and maintainance discharge/charge cycle if needed.

Consumables such as pads/discs are chargeable on ICE or on EV and whilst the extra weight eats them quicker, the regenerative braking reduces the load on them.

All a bit of a round about.

 

As the video above shows, EV batteries come from a mix of fossil fuels and minerals that are extracted in less the equitable conditions.

I still like the idea of hydrogen fuel cells, but in the short term it's going to be a major investment in solar panels/batteries and then have one ICE car and one EV car. They will have different purposes so rather than a replacement, it's a different tool for a different job.

 

EV = daily short trips, fuel security (Ironically), reduced daily costs and entering towns/cities with charges or bans

ICE = long range trips, which don't happen frequently and a second vehicle for when we both need a car at the same time.

 

The EV becomes the day to day vehicle and the ICE a specialist one until either fuel cells and hydrogen come along, or a battery can do 10 year + life, with 450 miles and 10 minutes from 10%-80%.

 

 

[Ootohere]

We will see what fuel security is like for liquid fuels and for electricity pretty soon if there is a war in eastern Europe. 

 

If the Electric goes out then the fuel pumps stop as well and even the filling stations do not get fuel delivered.

If the Electric goes off then so will Public Chargers.  

 

The UK Government know they need to keep allowing those making the huge profits to keep on bringing oil out from around the UK and even more than now and Gas and still keep importing.

That is the population of the UK's Oil & Gas an minerals that companies get licences to get out and then make big profits from.

It is not like it is actually their oil or gas when in the ground / under the sea.

It is not the Crown Estates, the Governments or anyone else's, it the UK's.

 

Also  the easy to produce but costly to set up to generate initially electric needs used when available and that means producing hydrogen from what is not being used into the national grid or storage that pumped hydro, battery storage etc.

 

Coming to a field near me soon.

 

 

Edited 16 February, 2022 by roottoot

[wyx087]

56 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

EV = daily short trips, fuel security (Ironically), reduced daily costs and entering towns/cities with charges or bans

ICE = long range trips, which don't happen frequently and a second vehicle for when we both need a car at the same time.

 

The EV becomes the day to day vehicle and the ICE a specialist one until either fuel cells and hydrogen come along, or a battery can do 10 year + life, with 450 miles and 10 minutes from 10%-80%.

That's EXACTLY how I've structured my 2 family cars from 2017.

 

2017 to before Covid lockdown, combined annual miles of the 2 cars were 18k, similar to single Merc coupe in 2014-2017 period. But absolute total cost of ownership (inc insurance and 50% every 3 years depreciation estimate) running 2 cars in this way were less than 20% more expensive than driving an older car.

 

I'm currently considering selling Skoda while prices are high and getting a Tesla 3. From September, Mon-Fri school run for the Leaf. Combined with me needing to head into office more often....... with Tesla network to fall back in-case of road trips.

[cheezemonkhai]

The supercharger network is a huge boon and the one this that keeps those cars going.

I'd love to see a law where charging networks must be available to any CCS (Or whatever the accepted national standard is) equipped vehicle.

 

Sure they'll have standard public rate and members rates, but something like that would force all charging points to be available to nearly all car owners.Yes it might not be cheap, but then neither is a motorway filling station. They both however allow you to continue (at a cost) if you're low on fuel.

 

Something else I'd like to see if higher rates charged on the super fast chargers if you're only taking a small charge or slow charge rate.

I see way too many hybrid cars parked up on DC chargers, most of which don't charge that fast or if they do don't take much charge.

An idle charge can help, but why use a 150/300kW charger if you can't pull faster than 50 and there are 50/100's available.

Edited 16 February, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Luckypants]

Tesla are already opening up their network to non-Teslas in more mature EV markets. almost all SC open to all in Netherlands and trials going on in France and Norway. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/non-tesla-supercharging#:~:text=Launched in November 2021%2C our,world's transition to sustainable energy.

 

The rate is about 5 eurocents more than the Tesla rate. Good speeds seem to be got by other brands too, so definitely worth considering using when they open them up in the UK.

[Luckypants]

On a note of costs to charge, Instavolt have announced yet another price rise. They'll be 50p / kWh after 22nd Feb. This follows on from their rise in November and their correction of the VAT in May.

 

https://instavolt.co.uk/instavolt-responds-to-continued-rise-in-wholesale-energy-costs-16-february-2022/

 

We can expect Gridserve and Osprey to follow suit. The smaller networks will also follow.

 

[xman]

4 hours ago, roottoot said:

It is not like it is actually their oil or gas when in the ground / under the sea.

It is not the Crown Estates, the Governments or anyone else's, it the UK's.

Are you sure?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/05/how-the-queen-came-to-own-the-seabed-around-britain

 

https://www.ogauthority.co.uk/licensing-consents/overview/the-crown-estate-interests/

 

[Ootohere]

@xman  I know they get to take the revenue.    They get lots of things because of the law, it still does not make it theirs and the law can change and the UK might change and the head of the Royal Family might change, it almost certainly will in the next few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-57559653

Owning land would usually mean it is yours to sell if you want but in the case of the Queen really she is the keeper and others control it on behalf of the Crown.   She  takes plenty off the top after money goes to the public's good via Crown Estates and the Treasury.

The licences are sold and then the oil and gas is the property of those extracting it. 

 

The Crown Estate owns the gold and silver in the ground but land owners own the minerals onland.

 

HRH Charles is so interested in many things like property & land and his Foundations yet seems not to know what those running things are saying in his name and offering in the way of peerages or citizenship.

Millions in and millions spent and it appears that who and where it comes from is just not a matter that Charles needs to know too much about.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60404077

 

 

It was discussed here in the post about the new licences last month for the floating wind farms licences. 

 

https://energyvoice.com/renewables-energy-transition/278374/crown-estate-scotland-annual-accounts

 

Earlier there was a discussion on the radio about HRH Charles and his brothers & sister and what is ours is theirs.

 

The story was the old one about someone fishing on a river and a man saying get off my river.

The fisher asks what makes this your river and the Laird says my family fought for this land.    The fisher says OK then i will fight you for it now. 

Edited 16 February, 2022 by roottoot

[wyx087]

I've read people say in Europe, the sites that Tesla opens to other cars are ones at less busy locations. So it's more of using spare capacity.

It's entirely in their interest to keep the already busy locations Tesla exclusive. And there's a reason they are busy locations, as they say, location location location.

 

So in the near future, say next ~3 years, I still think a Tesla to replace the long distance car is the only choice in the EV market. Other makes without their own charging network are still in early adopter have-planB phase.

 

 

[Luckypants]

Yes of course Tesla will only open up the quieter sites to begin with, this is new territory for them. The way I look at it, the more chargers available the better. Although I've been surprised how little I've even needed to consider public charging in my 10 months of EV ownership so far. 2022 is being dubbed 'Year of the hub' by many EV commentators and this announcement from Gridserve proves that somewhat

 

"GRIDSERVE is delivering the biggest upgrade to motorway EV charging infrastructure in UK history. Over 20 Electric Hubs – each consisting of 6-12 x 350kW ultra high-power chargers – are due to open at motorway services across the UK by the end of Q2 2022, with large numbers of additional Electric Hub sites being lined up to follow. Since GRIDSERVE’s acquisition of Ecotricity’s Electric Highway in June of last year, the company has already invested tens of millions of pounds in upgrading the network. In addition to opening the first Electric Hub at Moto Rugby, the company has replaced more than 300 historical Ecotricity DC rapid chargers and has installed 130 additional AC chargers, ensuring that the charging needs for all types of electric vehicles are catered for."

Taken from this press release 

https://www.gridserve.com/2022/02/17/gridserve-and-moto-open-first-high-powered-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-in-wales-tackling-charging-disparities-across-the-uk/?fbclid=IwAR0VBWc112etVPVpt7XqZCZDVGLE8TWIvz3aWOE6_NnpqxDNGa0PS1E23HI

 

[wyx087]

Here is some interesting information and formula for AC charging loss on cables:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/power-loss-in-ev-charging-cables.166930/

3-phase is the way to go.

 

 

20 hubs along motorway services will be fantastic If they can continue at this rate, I'll have to cut my earlier estimate to 1-2 years.

[PetrolDave]

23 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The aim is never zero drilling, that's impossible with current technology.

Someone should tell that to all the protesters who are trying to stop all new oil exploration.

[xman]

Stopped reading when I noticed the bit that says conductor operating temperature 70⁰ C

WTF?

[wyx087]

13 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Someone should tell that to all the protesters who are trying to stop all new oil exploration.

That's completely different though. Protesters are stopping new sites (keyword: exploration) whereas zero drilling mean zero material extraction, which includes shutting down of existing drill sites.

We already have a huge amount of existing oil drilling sites and a lot of oil in circulation that can be recycled for lubricant/tyres.

 

16 minutes ago, xman said:

Stopped reading when I noticed the bit that says conductor operating temperature 70⁰ C

WTF?

Higher temperature = higher resistance, isn't it better to be pessimistic?

The source website of that table was at 70c, but does not mean the test was carried out at 70c.

[Luckypants]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

20 hubs along motorway services will be fantastic If they can continue at this rate, I'll have to cut my earlier estimate to 1-2 years.

Gridserve are good at talking the talk, will reserve judgement on how they walk the walk. Wetherby likely next hub to go live, currently 6 hubs in build. Instavolt claim to have 200 new chargers this year including hubs (just opened Banbury). Osprey ditto (using the excellent Kempower chargers). All making big claims, lets see if reality backs that up.

My money is Instavolt will deliver, but will remain the most expensive.

[PetrolDave]

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

We already have a huge amount of existing oil drilling sites and a lot of oil in circulation that can be recycled for lubricant/tyres.

Recycling doesn't recover 100% so some 'new oil' is still needed.

Many (most?) of the existing sites are nearing the end of their economic life so, given the long lead time between exploration and production, exploration of new sites needs to be going ahead now.

[wyx087]

4 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Recycling doesn't recover 100% so some 'new oil' is still needed.

Many (most?) of the existing sites are nearing the end of their economic life so, given the long lead time between exploration and production, exploration of new sites needs to be going ahead now.

End of their economic life, is that due to age of the operation or due to the currently accessible oil reserve are nearly empty?

If it's only the latter, the quicker we phase out burning the stuff as energy source, the longer existing sites will last. As you say, recycling means a smaller amount of 'new oil' is needed

 

The key is move toward circular economy, if we minimise consumption of the material we extract from underground, we can make existing sites last a LOT longer.

This is why I support drilling for battery material now due to lack of recyclable batteries, but also sort of agree with protest against oil exploration. On one hand, material will be re-used and recycled forever, the other is a single-use consumable.

 

Sorry, this is going off topic.....

[lol-lol]

110 miles driven today in the little EV the Renault Zoe.  Fully charged to 100% at the beginning of the journey on the 5p per kWh and the car showing 192 miles range, car started with miles per kWh at 3.7 so energy costs of about 1.35 pence per mile.

 

Temperature only 7C when starting this morning as I heard North from Worcester to an RAF base north of Shrewsbury and 55 miles away.

Arrived at the base with the battery state showing 78 % !  Only 22% used and miles per kWh showing 4 miles per kWh, some useful regen done on many of the downhills despite less regen available as starting at 100% as regen not fully available, some cab heating used of course using the heat pump.

 

Even though the temperature warmed up a few degrees did not improve on the 4 miles per kWh as I gave it some real beans using the full 100 kWs of power for a few bits of dual carriageway, having some fun with some ICE cars who must be thinking just how much it is going to cost them when they fill up in a few hours or day times as they also press the throttle and wiz past the NSL after a few seconds after being forced  to drive at 40 or 50 in a restricted zone with me knowing it is costing me a near insignificant amount of money to charge back up to my circa 200 mile range in a few hours or days.

 

So arrived home showing  48% charge, took a wrong turn so ended up doing nearly 60 miles coming back to Worcester and having down about 115 miles today and using a reported 52% of the battery.  Continuing to be so impressed with the Zoe.  Looked at the charge network along the journey route and very poor with only a few Instavolt charges at some KFCs along the route sounding tempting as a stop over.  Wind has been very strong ie 40 mph as the winter storms pass trough but do not seem to affect the weighty ie 1.6T Zoe with me and cargo being around 1.75T in total.  3k miles almost covered and looking forward to spring and hopefully climb back up from 4 towards 5 miles per kWh and close to the 240 mile quoted WLTP range.  Also hoping, as yet another country's non TESLA users are allowed to start using the TESLA supercharger network as happens in France, Netherlands and Norway on some TESLA charger locations as this would help with confidence on fast charger access on the longer journeys as well as more GRIDSERVE motorway get upgraded and Exeter sounds better but still some issues with charge rates so not perfect. Roll on Plymouth dedicated Gridserve station.  

  

 

 

 

Edited 18 February, 2022 by lol-lol

[Luckypants]

My first Gridserve experience last night as we made an unscheduled trip to the Borders. Two 50kW Gridserve chargers at Tebay, one in use when we arrived. Plug in, flashed the credit card and off we went. Excellent. 48kW for the full 50 minutes while we ate. Fingers crossed all public charging is like this. 

[lol-lol]

18 hours ago, Luckypants said:

My first Gridserve experience last night as we made an unscheduled trip to the Borders. Two 50kW Gridserve chargers at Tebay, one in use when we arrived. Plug in, flashed the credit card and off we went. Excellent. 48kW for the full 50 minutes while we ate. Fingers crossed all public charging is like this. 

 

Hoping the Gridserve rollout of both upgrading motorway services chargers and the rollout of dedicated charging stations.

 

Along with Instavolt's network which also look pretty good. MFG are only just appearing in Worcester but I see a cluster in Bristol  

 

https://www.zap-map.com/drivers-rate-electric-vehicle-charging-networks-uk/#:~:text=In first place overall this,MFG EV Power and Osprey.

 

I just wish more of the AC chargers were 22 kWh just in case the scant DC chargers were online or being used.

 

Zap-Map user ratings for UK public EV charging networks

 

[Ootohere]

I now have credit sitting on accounts with 3 charging providers just incase the contactless does not work and i need to use an app or call to get a charger started.

PITA though where there is no mobile reception which is odd where there are chargers, but then mobile reception can get turned down in areas when there are accidents / incidents in the area.