@lol-lolit requires 5 kW a day each day while the weather is at a temp below 10*oC or so regardless of if the car has 10% 20% etc showing in the battery.

 

It was just easier to check with a full battery and compare with a year or so ago when i noticed how much electric was required.

Really it does not lose / use more energy because the battery is fuller. 

 

What i am comparing is the maybe 6 trips i do most days that sometimes would be on a bike or years ago i did in a Kia Picanto that could manage 42MPG with the same usage.

 

0.7 miles mostly down hill or flat going and 0.7 miles back on the flat & uphill.  

Only difference ever is ambient temp, rain, snow, wind etc.   

 

SITTING ON A 7KW Charger and getting 6.6 kW in the car is the same if the car is locked and no one in or if the Heater is up to 28*oC and the radio on and a phone plugged in and charging.

Same going in, 6.6kW for the cars battery.   I have tried to see more than a few times.

 

 

........................................

Out of town and different speeds is a whole different kettle or renewable electricity use.

Edited 30 January, 20224 yr by roottoot

One thing rarely mentioned is that no charger or electronic converter is 100% efficient. (Thats why there are big fans in those big charger). It would be a very good design if a 240V charger were 95% efficient, furthermore there is the issue of battery charge acceptance and efficiency and generally speaking, as charge current decreases, the inefficiencies rise.

 

I speak as a past designer and user of various switch mode power supplies in industrial applications.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36062942/evs-explained-charging-losses/

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lolit requires 5 kW a day each day while the weather is at a temp below 10*oC or so regardless of if the car has 10% 20% etc showing in the battery.It was just easier to check with a full battery and compare with a year or so ago when i noticed how much electric was required.

Really it does not lose / use more energy because the battery is fuller. 

What i am comparing is the maybe 6 trips i do most days that sometimes would be on a bike or years ago i did in a Kia Picanto that could manage 42MPG with the same usage.

0.7 miles mostly down hill or flat going and 0.7 miles back on the flat & uphill.  

Only difference ever is ambient temp, rain, snow, wind etc.   SITTING ON A 7KW Charger and getting 6.6 kW in the car is the same if the car is locked and no one in or if the Heater is up to 28*oC and the radio on and a phone plugged in and charging.

Same going in, 6.6kW for the cars battery.   I have tried to see more than a few times.

........................................

Out of town and different speeds is a whole different kettle or renewable electricity use.

 

Of course we have a second battery in our EVs, which peeves me that it is one of those last century, or is the century before that, lead-acid jobs, very heavy and a poor power retention characteristics compared to Lithium.

Cars use up to 1 kWh per day for their sentinel functions and then they have to top off the lead acid which will tend to lose about 1% of its charge per days so this would account for some of the power needed to top off the car 24 hours later and when charging there is all the displays that kick in and little lights that show it is charging.

Whilst the charging process is nowhere near as bad as diesel and petrol cars which barely get close to converting half of the energy in the fuel to forward motion we are maybe in the 90% range but as some of the manufacturers seem to intimate this is when the car is in the 20 to 80% range of operation with that tailing off for a whole set of reasons in the 0-20% and 80-100% where it may be a few percentage points lower than that 90%. 

 

Looking forward to replacing that dinosaur lead acid battery with a Lithium one in a year or two down the line.  Older Zoes were suppose to charge, or test check, their 12v battery after 3 years.  I would have thought it had an easy life compared to ICE 12v batteries. CAr would be some 15 kgs lighter too I suppose.

 

3 hours ago, xman said:

One thing rarely mentioned is that no charger or electronic converter is 100% efficient. (Thats why there are big fans in those big charger). It would be a very good design if a 240V charger were 95% efficient, furthermore there is the issue of battery charge acceptance and efficiency and generally speaking, as charge current decreases, the inefficiencies rise.

 

I speak as a past designer and user of various switch mode power supplies in industrial applications.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36062942/evs-explained-charging-losses/

 

Interesting article.  Of course electricity is now 2 or 3 times the price they quoted.

 

As a mech eng person having spent years in the classroom, engine room and lab with all the teachings of thermodynamics ringing in my ears I immediately cast my systems boundary around the parts in question and look to identify all sub systems and their energy input and outputs and their energy transformation and considering low grade heating, sound etc as all part of it.

 

When working with three phase, 400v, 800v etc we can see considerable advantages. Volts good, amps bad was an oversimplification I recall for efficiency.  With the energy crisis coming to most peoples door mat this spring, summer, autumn, winter we all should learn lots more about electricity I reckon.   Just try to figure out my next stage to start paralleling my solar panels and make sure I have the right solar generator and battery storage, fun fun.

 

Edited 30 January, 20224 yr by lol-lol

20 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 Interesting comment by mega Youtuber "Battery life" that the ID3, and presumably the rest of the VW family, that his ID 3 annoyingly heats the battery pack if it starts at less the 7C and brings it up to at least 13C with its 6 kw heater.  He reckons this is often not the right thing to do and is costing him 50 Euros a year unnecessarily.   

 

Yes the VW ID family and other MEB cars do heat the battery at low temps. It is scary the amount of electricity used if both cabin heater and battery heater are running - I have seen 11kW draw while stationary! So power use on a cold commute of under 20 miles is pretty horrendous and the source of much ire from the ID community. VW are aware and claim it will be fixed in a major software update in the spring (too late to test this year!). It makes the car expensive as a commuting tool in winter. My cost for January has averaged 8.8p/mile while summer is more like 6p/mile. 

 

VW have stated there will be a service campaign in spring to upgrade a couple of components to make them updatable over the air and replace the 12V batteries with a different type to fix an issue with some cars going flat. At this time V2.4 of the MEB software will be installed to handle the updated bits. Then "shortly" after this V3.0 of the software will be sent out over the air to allegedly fix a bunch of the known issues. (At least this is my understanding of how this will go)

So presently bad ju-ju in the cold, but kudos to VW as they seem to be spending quite a bit to get it fixed.

3.6 kW was what was needed to top back up to where i was yesterday and having driven 3 miles. 

35 minutes on the 7 kW charger as charge confirmed after plugging in and getting back into car.    (Driven 1 mile since charging to 99%)

Edited 31 January, 20224 yr by roottoot

On 28/01/2022 at 08:16, wyx087 said:

I currently only need the South Mimms and London gateway chargers, both of which have been offline for months. 😥

HTH
 

 

@wyx087 London Gateway getting an upgrade too
 

 

 

Thank you so much for the updates. It's great to see progress at sites I want to use.

 

When I get to use it, I probably won't be as bitter about them.

Maybe not too long until we find out what increases in the cost to charge that Local Authorities with Public Charging or Commercial Providers have to impose from April if they do have to.

 

Then eventually the Chancellor of the Exchequer will get around to doing something about VED / or cost per miles of road use.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/pay-as-you-go-car-tax-via-gps-tracking-recommended-by-government-committee

 

Edited 4 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

3 hours ago, Luckypants said:

@wyx087 London Gateway getting an upgrade too
 

 

 

 

Just thought I would check where London Gateway Service is as to me and hundreds of thousands of people in Logistics London Gateway is near Basildon and not Edgeware !

 

Never know might go there for a charge one day but is that it  ?

Two charging posts with presumably a 50 kW DC or two on it or one 50 kW DC and a 22 KW AC as this seems to be oft the case.

 

Nearly all the Ecotricity upgrades on the M5 from Bristol downwards are of this two machine updgrade with only Exeter actually getting the more than 2 machines.

 

Hardly the 32 charger Braintree setup we are hoping for.  Norwich on line soon and I am hoping for other similar ones to open up at Plymouth and Stevenage to be more like the Rugby setup with many chargers rather than just a couple as one can easily see waiting happening there and if one or both is broken than much heart ache.

  

Gridserve are now building out some charging hubs in addition to the upgraded chargers and the electric forecourts. They have Norwich coming online in March I believe and Gatwick will be online by the end of the year. They have 6 hubs in build right now, to be similar to the Rugby set up. These hubs are at Swansea (Moto), Heston West (Moto), Severn View (Moto), Wetherby (Moto), Burton in Kendall (Moto), Exeter (Moto), Woolley Edge North (Moto), Woolley Edge South (Moto), Thurrock (Moto), Leigh Delamere Westbound (Moto), Reading West (Moto). I know for sure that Swansea, Severn view and Wetherby are actually in build as I've seen them. For your trip to down the M5, there are two MFG hubs in Bristol and Gridserve will build / are building a hub at Cornwall Services. The list above comes from Gridserve's website https://www.gridserve.com/2021/12/09/biggest-motorway-ev-charging-upgrade-in-uk-history-underway-with-11-new-ultra-high-power-electric-hubs-in-construction-plus-world-first-electric-forecourt-at-gatwick-airport/

 

Osprey, MFG and Instavolt are building hubs also either at MSAs or adjacent to the motorway. For instance the MFG hub next to the M6 at Crow Orchard. Also some places are getting a lot of attention, Banbury now has two charging hubs, one from Instavolt and one from Osprey. Oxford  are currently building Europe's most powerful charging hub with Fastned. York City council are building two hubs on its ring road park and ride schemes with fast chargers and a couple of rapids, similar to the Falkirk charging hub set up.

There is a lot going on in the charging arena right now, so its not as bad as you think. I only found out today that there are 4 chargers installed on the A55 near me waiting for the grid connection to be upgraded - a mini-hub but no power. The more I learn about this, the less straightforward it seems.

Edited 4 February, 20224 yr by Luckypants

So looking forward to the Plymouth one.........

It will be close to Plymouth Argyle's ground.  Wonder if I could park up on a 22 kW AC whilst the match is on.

Good luck to the Green Army at Chelsea tomorrow, 1230, and Worcestershire Kidderminster Harriers tomorrow at Aggborough with WHFC.

 

http://www.plymouthchronicle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Central-January-ad-proof-345.jpg

Further to my post about charging hubs, the Swansea Gridserve charging hub went live over the weekend. Six 350kW CCS chargers and the 350kW Chademo plus the existing 3 60kW and 2 type 2 22kW chargers. Looks like Wetherby will be next to come online.

Edited 8 February, 20224 yr by Luckypants
spelling

2 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Further to my post about charging hubs, the Swansea Gridserve charging hub went live over the weekend. Six 350kW CCS chargers and the 350kW Chademo plus the existing 3 60kW and 2 type 2 22kW chargers. Looks like Weatherby will be next to come online.

 

No "a" in Wetherby, maybe an aye.  At least Wetherby service can serve both North and South bound traffic unlike our Strensham service which only has decent chargers North bound and a near 15 mile turnaround to the next junction ie Worcester South.

 

Could use the Wetherby one going to York and then cut across.  

 

 

Too long didn't watch? This is the summary:

 

I personally think +4 passengers will be higher in normal use due to constantly needing to change speed.

I also think the MEB platform isn't doing all it can (eg. Tesla style heat scavenging) to be more efficient when all systems are on. That scenario should not have such a big effect on the range. But then, MED cars are not the worst either (eg Ford, fat eTron and Taycan).

Who has the heating on max? Heating is expensive, I often see 7kW consumption when the car is cold and heating goes on max but I'd never run it flat out like that for 10 miles. When up to temp, the heating does not use very much to maintain temp. Battery heating on the MEB is expensive too, which tries to heat the battery to 13C from the get go, but driving at 70 should mean the battery doesn't need heating. So battery heating and passenger heating can result in 11kW of use before even moving the car and makes short journeys in the cold very inefficient. Even at that, we get around 2.2 mi/kwh on wifey's commute and this improves if we charge just before setting off and pre-heat from the mains. VW are promising to do something about the battery heating drain in winter with a software update in the spring.

 

EDIT: I get better consumption figures than this at 60 and 70 with heating on and would get a lot more with heating off. I suspect there is other factors at play here affecting the range he is getting. (Remember Enyaq is more aerodynamic than ID.4, so he should do better)

 

 

Edited 10 February, 20224 yr by Luckypants

That's about right, it needs about 20kW for 70mph cruise, if heating takes up 11kW, that's about 33% additional consumption. Indeed, absolutely no one will put the heating to max for such long period of time, it's an unrealistic test.

 

But other data are interesting. Roof box had a smaller effect than I thought. Would also be interesting to see if rear tow-hitch mounted bike rack have a smaller efficiency penalty.

The cars seats occupied by living breathing people during Covid and the car steamed up was just a ridiculous test.  With masks worn.

What is the important thing to many looking at EV's is how efficient with passengers at 60 or 70 mph and comfort in the vehicle and not a car you are going to maybe park and over night the interior gets frozen glass inside requiring pre heating with windows slightly open.

 

Wind deflectors on the windows are important as far as i am concerned, that might just be for when charging and me or others in the car and with the heating / ac on or not on but the weather being rainy or snowy.

Edited 11 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

Just wondering if anyone has info/data on the electric cost of an EV doing no miles or local shopping miles over a few winter months?

49 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Just wondering if anyone has info/data on the electric cost of an EV doing no miles

I would think its under a couple of quid...well under.....😆

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Just wondering if anyone has info/data on the electric cost of an EV doing no miles or local shopping miles over a few winter months?

 

Winter or summer I always try to use the EV with the only constrain being the challenge of a long journey where one does not know how good the charge network is on that journey and how good the chargers are at the destination.

 

Monthly PCP charges are the usual outgoings or like the journalist Rorry you can buy one for as little as £4k but you will probably only get that sub 100 mile range of the early EVs or those small battery cars like the Honda.  PCP cost can be less than £300 a month or all everything up cost of around £400 pm.  

Easily doing 600 miles a month since September and I think it is going to be hard to keep it down to 600 miles a month and I wish I had chosen 8k or 10k a year mileage but I probably will go well over the miles per year and buy the car at the end of the PCP.

 

Cost per mile for energy is about 1.5 pence per mile so very cheap compared to diesel or petrol cars.

Insurance was quite cheap for me but quite expensive to add my son.

EVs, on average, do more miles per year than ICE cars.  I suspect this is due to those hundreds of thousands of Teslas being bought, tramping up and down the motorways and using their supercharger network. 

Bjorn Nyland has mass data on driving in those cold Norwegian winters. 

Unlike UK there electricity costs are more stable as it is generated from hydro and not largely from gas powered generator sets.

Great video of his latest 1000 km winter test.  Shadow in centre of screen is a Moose he nearly ran in to...........  

 

 

 

Edited 15 February, 20224 yr by lol-lol

@cheezemonkhai   I posted these in your 'The best way to "buy" an electric vehicle,  thread last week.

 

2 weeks free charging at Tesco.

32 miles one week and 27 in the next 6 days.  

 

If i had paid 20 pence a kWh to charge at home that would be £7 a week.   (on a 5 pence a kWh tariff £1.75)

If i had charged just once in the week at a local public charger £8.

On a Tesco 26 pence a kWh 50 kWh charger £9.10

  So about the same or more as buying petrol / diesel during cold weeks and doing under 5 miles a day in a few trips a day.  

Edited 16 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

@lol-lol  There are lots of Tesla going about that do not charge at Tesla Superchargers. 

 Private cars and Tesla that do not have free charging which there are lots of.

 

50 kWh @ 36 pence a kWh is £18.00.    

3.5 miles per kWh x 50 kWh = 175 miles.

 

Many Tesla drivers will opt for a lower charging cost than @ SuperChargers. 

 Maybe using 50kWh chargers at under 30 pence a kWh or free ones, or free 7kWh chargers even. 

 

 

If you go on an InstaVolt 50 kWh Charger at 44 pence a kWh and you get 4 miles per kWh then that is 11 pence a mile to costs you.

 

 

 

This was odd in the Corsa.

In ECO (80 ps) the Heating / AC was restricted and not worth driving in with dead feeling of the steering and acceleration.

He had ECO but could still have used the stick in B or just shifted to B for decelerating / slowing.

 

He would have got the same economy with the car in D (110 ps) and then at the roundabout actually getting the regen with the stick moved back to B.

In Sport (136ps) he would have got the same kWh use showing and better feeling of the steering and would have got better regen shifting to B.

That would have had it slowing the same as lifting off the accelerator with the Tesla. 

 

If did say the percentage of charge on the Corsa while charging and when you open the drivers door as long as the car is turned off.

So as you get back in the car, or each time you open the door when in the car and charging.  

 

 

 

Edited 16 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

There is a recent YouTube of a vlogger driving a new Citroen C4 Electric.   Same motor and battery as the Corsa but a bigger and heavier car.   He drives in Normal which is 110 ps unless you floor it and get full power.  He drives it both in B and without B.  Drives with AC on.   He gets around 3.5 miles per kWh which with a 45 kWh usable is more like the real 150-160 miles you might get in warmer weather.  But then that would be starting full and running the battery really low.  But driving a car feeling normal and being comfortable.   The charging he does is on a 50 kWh charger.  If just charging to 80% and using 33kWh then you are maybe adding 105 miles in 60 minutes.    I will link that vid later.  

 

..........................

186 miles of range is what many Stellantis models show when brand new and having had the PDI and charged up.

With many that will be the last time they show that range unless the battery is at 100% and the last time driven it was driven it was getting 4.1 miles per kWh.

To show 210 miles it would have had to be getting over 4.6 miles per kWh.

 

As he surely spotted the Shown Range means very little and in another week will be nothing like it was for him.

That BP Polar charge speed was pretty rubbish really considering a 175 kWh charger used on a car that can charge up to 100 kWh, 

only when low enough a battery though.   

Showed a start at 42% on the app & then in car 50% then charging to full and 1 hour 17 seconds is not good considering you only have 45 kWh usable.

You can get 28.5 kWh in in 63 minutes and up to 99% on a 50 kWh charger working well. 

 

He was not just in Regen mode, the car was in ECO mode when he said that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 February, 20224 yr by roottoot