12 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

 

I think they won't be bothered, whether their stuff works or not is low down their priority list.

 

You're assuming my pouch isn't effective. As with everything in life, some versions of the same product work better than others.

Hes right though.... it only attenuates the signal, but the devices they use amplifies it again to be of higher strength. Remember, the devices are cheap Chinese tat, so put your key in the bag, and put it far away from the door, perhaps behind a few walls!

I know, but to amplify the signal there is an assumption being made that all options available on the market don't completely block the signal, therefore the equipment the thieves use will be 100% successful all of the time. This isn't the case.

 

No doubt there are cheap solutions that don't do a very good job, but to tarnish all products with the same brush, regardless of their origins is wrong.

 

And as I mentioned earlier, if a gang of thieves hell bent on stealing a car can't get a grab on the signal (with their "cheap Chinese tat" amplifiers) then they'll simply kick the door down and help themselves to the keys, at which point whether they're in 'sleep mode' or not is as relevant as the effectiveness of the pouch their sat in.

4 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

 

I think they won't be bothered, whether their stuff works or not is low down their priority list.

 

You're assuming my pouch isn't effective. As with everything in life, some versions of the same product work better than others.

 

Well I dont know their priorities but I know they are now selling both hacking tools and protection bags to simply clever westerns.

 

Yes, some of protective cases work, as per investigative report above. Even better works simple alu foil.

 

For ppl reading this thread I wish to clarify reasons I wasted so much  effort here:

1. I wish to save people to waste their money in snake oil products like Faraday bags of poor quality - just wrap your kessy keyfob in kitchen alu foil and it will best protection

2. People should be informed and educated on risks as well as on true protection that comes with movement sensor addition to kessy. One can build simple DIY circuitry as I explained above (I did a d tested and it works)

3. We all about put pressure on Skoda (write and request not only inquire) to provide improved (movement sensor enabled) kessy keyfobs ASAP (even as payed replacement would be ok, just provide it)

 

If en mass pressure is put on Skoda, and even some publicly visibility arouses from this, we can hope Skoda will start listening.

 

11 minutes ago, sakta said:

Hes right though.... it only attenuates the signal, but the devices they use amplifies it again to be of higher strength. Remember, the devices are cheap Chinese tat, so put your key in the bag, and put it far away from the door, perhaps behind a few walls!

No. Just wrap it in kitchen alu foil and it will be maximally protected. Please read the very comprehensive investigation report I submitted above. Alu foil has best scores in really comprehensive and professionally performed tests of suppression of electromagnetic ('radio') propagation.

Skoda (VAG) are already working on the movement sensor keys, your email isn't going to introduce them sooner.

 

The fact that the feature is already referenced in both Skoda and SEAT owners manuals would suggest they're close to being released.

2 minutes ago, pa_ko said:

No. Just wrap it in kitchen alu foil and it will be maximally protected. Please read the very comprehensive investigation report I submitted above. Alu foil has best scores in really comprehensive and professionally performed tests of suppression of electromagnetic ('radio') propagation.

 

If you're going to go to the effort of wrapping the keys in kitchen foil everytime you lock the car, and unwrap them each time you want to gain access to the car, then you may as well simply deactivate KESSY by touching the door handle each time you lock the car.

5 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

I know, but to amplify the signal there is an assumption being made that all options available on the market don't completely block the signal, therefore the equipment the thieves use will be 100% successful all of the time. This isn't the case.

 

No doubt there are cheap solutions that don't do a very good job, but to tarnish all products with the same brush, regardless of their origins is wrong.

 

And as I mentioned earlier, if a gang of thieves hell bent on stealing a car can't get a grab on the signal (with their "cheap Chinese tat" amplifiers) then they'll simply kick the door down and help themselves to the keys, at which point whether they're in 'sleep mode' or not is as relevant as the effectiveness of the pouch their sat in.

 

I stated and I'm repeating that not all casings are bad. Just most of them are. Especially cheap bags. And surely Chinese ones. You have report above with elaborated results and brand names. 

 

Regarding theory 'they'll simply kick the door down' I don't agree. The physical intrusion is not only much more risky but also much more traceable. So, for 100 pounds or so they would and they are according to latest statistics you may find in publicly available reports, opting for non-intrusive modus operandi.

5 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

Skoda (VAG) are already working on the movement sensor keys, your email isn't going to introduce them sooner.

 

The fact that the feature is already referenced in both Skoda and SEAT owners manuals would suggest they're close to being released.

 

And you are sure they will be provided to existing cars as replacement option?

 

And what is timeframe? Printing in owners manual means nothing concretely. Can be thus it next year or even never. Like much of things they wrote on Skoda Connect etc.

6 minutes ago, silver1011 said:

 

If you're going to go to the effort of wrapping the keys in kitchen foil everytime you lock the car, and unwrap them each time you want to gain access to the car, then you may as well simply deactivate KESSY by touching the door handle each time you lock the car.

 

I agree it is inconvenient.

 

But it is good for spare keys you keep in house. You do have spares? And you keep them in house?

 

And, I'm repeating again and again - yes, buy protection casing but of good quality if you need one.

 

You're not the only one sharing links, there are several links from others in this thread that show that the thieves will happily break in to your house to get the key.

 

I never mentioned that the movement sensor will be retrofittable on existing cars. Assuming the technology is limited to the key only, then I imagine it will be possible for owners to purchase new keys that contain the feature, once available, albeit at their cost.

 

In my experience Skoda only include new additions in their manuals when they're close to being introduced. They can publish new manuals at any point so they can leave it as late as they're comfortable with. Nothing is guaranteed, but this might suggest they're months away, not years.

 

Yes, my spare keys are kept in the house. But if the car is on the drive, then all the keys are in the house, so wrapping only one key in foil is unlikely to offer much additional protection, compared with simply deactivating KESSY.

43 minutes ago, pa_ko said:

 

If en mass pressure is put on Skoda, and even some publicly visibility arouses from this, we can hope Skoda will start listening.

 

 

You mean like all the pressure put on them about 1.5TSI problems which they conveniently ignored for months and still haven't got an answer for! 

8 hours ago, silver1011 said:

You're not the only one sharing links, there are several links from others in this thread that show that the thieves will happily break in to your house to get the key.

 

I never mentioned that the movement sensor will be retrofittable on existing cars. Assuming the technology is limited to the key only, then I imagine it will be possible for owners to purchase new keys that contain the feature, once available, albeit at their cost.

 

In my experience Skoda only include new additions in their manuals when they're close to being introduced. They can publish new manuals at any point so they can leave it as late as they're comfortable with. Nothing is guaranteed, but this might suggest they're months away, not years.

 

Yes, my spare keys are kept in the house. But if the car is on the drive, then all the keys are in the house, so wrapping only one key in foil is unlikely to offer much additional protection, compared with simply deactivating KESSY.

 

Thieves breaking into house is on sharp decline. Non-intrusive thefts are surging. So don't pay too much attention on outdated reports or police PR spinners intended to calm down public (as they demonstrate sluggish response to Amazon sales of hacking equipment).

 

Keep spare key(s) in alu foil and if you wish operational keys in some protective casing for convenience.

 

Yet about Skoda and VAG, they have also habit to change things for new models but don't provide upgrade / replacement option for previously delivered cars. Look are German struggle to push VAG to enable retrofit upgrade of diesel fare vehicles to meet euro6. Government is ready to pay for it yet VAG struggle not to.

 

So I'm very cautious about Skoda providing very cheap and very simple upgrade like movement sensor upgraded kessy. It is not matter of money nor of technical possibility (I did it and provided it is possible) but if their principles and corporate culture.

9 hours ago, don_kiddik said:

 

You mean like all the pressure put on them about 1.5TSI problems which they conveniently ignored for months and still haven't got an answer for! 

 

Yes I agree Skoda is reluctant to come forward to customers after they take your money. Yet I'm not aware of technical feasibility or challenge to fix TSI issue.

 

But in this case, it is technically feasible even very simple and cheap as I demonstrated.

 

So in this case pressure on them may be fruitful as it is matter of fact their liability and even can have legal consequences if people start engaging lawyers.

 

I did consulted with mine and got advise to formally write to Skoda. Insurance policies and laws are recognising liability of both owner and car producer in cases where vehicles is not protected from unauthorized usage (which may result in accident or damages to third parties). So flaw in design of kessy without clear notes or disclaimer in owner's manual may be considered as warranty or liability issues on Skoda. (Yes they were aware of design flaw in passive keyless prior to delivery of our vehicles yet they have not informed us on limits and risks)

 

So write them a formal letter citing reports on keyless car theft, and ask them to provide you a exact section in manual where it is stated that your car can be used without your consent when it is locked by kessy. I have not found such place. Yes you have note on disabling kessy but all around manual it is clearly stated that car is locked and thus it is assumed protected in general understanding of liability. 

 

For sure Skoda will not surrender easily  but if many of us start asking such questions that may amount to their risk of legal and public liability.

 

BTW my lawyer advised was to write to them in order to protect myself if car is stolen - I expressed concern and willingness to protect vehicle if misuse but was not in position to do so as Skoda did not inform me on limitations or procedures to do we. And if they just tell me to disable kessy, I can sue them for selling me kessy in the first place! That would be very embarrassing for them, I believe.

 

Take care that in some states (US) but also in many EU states (not sure for UK - find it yourself):

...In some states, an auto owner who may be held liable under common law for an accident caused by a thief if the owner should have known that a theft was likely...

 

As it is now publicly know that keyless is not secure AND theft is likely (as there is lot of reports in media lately, specifically refering Skodas as risky) it is coming to your liability as owner here. So think of it, ask advice and write Skoda if you are 'simply clever'

 

Edited 16 February, 20197 yr by pa_ko

9 hours ago, pa_ko said:

 

Yes I agree Skoda is reluctant to come forward to customers after they take your money. Yet I'm not aware of technical feasibility or challenge to fix TSI issue.

 

But in this case, it is technically feasible even very simple and cheap as I demonstrated.

 

So in this case pressure on them may be fruitful as it is matter of fact their liability and even can have legal consequences if people start engaging lawyers.

 

I did consulted with mine and got advise to formally write to Skoda. Insurance policies and laws are recognising liability of both owner and car producer in cases where vehicles is not protected from unauthorized usage (which may result in accident or damages to third parties). So flaw in design of kessy without clear notes or disclaimer in owner's manual may be considered as warranty or liability issues on Skoda. (Yes they were aware of design flaw in passive keyless prior to delivery of our vehicles yet they have not informed us on limits and risks)

 

So write them a formal letter citing reports on keyless car theft, and ask them to provide you a exact section in manual where it is stated that your car can be used without your consent when it is locked by kessy. I have not found such place. Yes you have note on disabling kessy but all around manual it is clearly stated that car is locked and thus it is assumed protected in general understanding of liability. 

 

For sure Skoda will not surrender easily  but if many of us start asking such questions that may amount to their risk of legal and public liability.

 

BTW my lawyer advised was to write to them in order to protect myself if car is stolen - I expressed concern and willingness to protect vehicle if misuse but was not in position to do so as Skoda did not inform me on limitations or procedures to do we. And if they just tell me to disable kessy, I can sue them for selling me kessy in the first place! That would be very embarrassing for them, I believe.

 

Take care that in some states (US) but also in many EU states (not sure for UK - find it yourself):

...In some states, an auto owner who may be held liable under common law for an accident caused by a thief if the owner should have known that a theft was likely...

 

As it is now publicly know that keyless is not secure AND theft is likely (as there is lot of reports in media lately, specifically refering Skodas as risky) it is coming to your liability as owner here. So think of it, ask advice and write Skoda if you are 'simply clever'

 

Good luck with that , if you don’t want a car stolen don’t buy one it it’s a fact of modern day life having had a few cars stolen one as a result of a house burglary and the keys where taken to my Octavia scout and an other time some one put a brick through a window and took the keys to my wife’s mini clubman cooper s 

We thought we had taken all precautions but it only takes one laps the mini keys left in vue on kitchen table and it went 

lnsure well and get on with life 

Sorry Pa-ko but I just don't see how Skoda could be held responsible if your vehicle is stolen. What if a thief just removed a rear quarter light and gained access? Do Skoda now have to design those so they cant be removed too?

Do you fit a crooklock or other physical anti theft equipment? If not you could be held to blame.

You've bought a car....just take the usual precautions and enjoy it.If a determined and professional thief really wants it the likelyhood is that they will take it.

I am not so sure that wrapping your key in aluminium foil would stop thieves picking up the signals from the Kessy Keypad.

 

I placed my keypad in a tin box, so totally enclosed in a steel screen and with the box in my pocket was still able to open the car as normal.  The signal was still reaching the car so presumably would still be picked up by thieves with monitoring equipment.

Fake tin box, made of plastic.
Seriously: could you have omitted to actually lock the car prior to testing?

 

Edited 16 February, 20197 yr by agedbriar

Nice try but the tin box is made of steel!

 

No the car was definitely locked as the mirrors were folded in.

 

I tried it several times and it opened without problems.

 

Having been involved with electronics for 50 years + I was rather surprised but it would appear wrapping the key in aluminium foil is a waste of time.

10 hours ago, Breezy said:

Sorry Pa-ko but I just don't see how Skoda could be held responsible if your vehicle is stolen. What if a thief just removed a rear quarter light and gained access? Do Skoda now have to design those so they cant be removed too?

Do you fit a crooklock or other physical anti theft equipment? If not you could be held to blame.

You've bought a car....just take the usual precautions and enjoy it.If a determined and professional thief really wants it the likelyhood is that they will take it.

 

Legal explanation is in citation I posted. Owner is responsible for securing car from unauthorized use IN accordance to manufacturers instructions. General law considers it as locking the car IN accordance to instructions (yet in some cases locking itself is not enough for instance if you leave keys in car etc.) PLUS securing keys (or other means of access e.g. unlocking) from unattended use.

 

So it is responsibility of the owner to clarify if any doubt, and execute procedures in accordance to owners manual. 

 

And as I said, it is now getting generally known (widely reported in public media) that kessy is possible to be hacked WITHOUT physical intrusion into property (neither your car nor your house) to gain access to car and possibly take part in incident or perform damages to third-party, then it may be partial or even full liability of the owner for such damages as per obligation to secure car from unauthorized and unattended use.

 

Note that physical breach into car or in your house (or robbery on the street) are not the same as if you have left car unlocked or you forget keys on table of restaurant etc. In former you are not responsible and in latter case you are. Now think about kessy and where if fits. If you know it is unsecure and prone to hack. You may be liable if there is any note or interpretation or even 'general understanding' that there is written caveat or procedure you have not fulfilled.

 

In case you ask Skoda for interpretation and pointing out on such caveat or procedure, the ball will be in their field. If they admit it is not secure, while all the manual is refering to 'locking' (which is 'general understanding' of securing the car), the you can claim their liability for misleading and much more. If they claim kessy locking is secure 'locking' i.e. car secured then you have what you need in case of theft - they take full liability. Yet, with surge in theft the cost of such taking liability (to insurance company, as insurance will hold Skoda liable for damages) may be huge. As well as PR and market damages of admission they deliberately cheated and took money for kessy knowing it is hackable....

 

I think both resolutions are hard and damaging to them. And I hope they will understand the message and provide us with improved kessy replacement. ASAP.

 

And yes they can try to nagotiate with few but if many people start asking this question they will be pressed to perform reasonable.

 

That is my point here. To make people aware and press Skoda to act reasonable and fair to all customers, not only new ones but existing owners. ASAP.

 

8 hours ago, Karock said:

Nice try but the tin box is made of steel!

 

No the car was definitely locked as the mirrors were folded in.

 

I tried it several times and it opened without problems.

 

Having been involved with electronics for 50 years + I was rather surprised but it would appear wrapping the key in aluminium foil is a waste of time.

Why don't you try it? For me it works perfectly. 

 

And is is officially recommend by FBI

https://clark.com/cars/can-wrapping-your-key-fob-in-foil-stop-car-thieves-we-put-it-to-the-test/

 

Regarding your thin can, I'm supposed that after 50 years you don't understand that steel is not good material as it is not great conducter (especially as it is not ideally closed - even best cover does not fit perfectly and you have a hole in your Faraday cage)

 

I posted professional investigation into protective casings, but I find lot of people are 'alergic' nowdays into long technical readings and prefer short tweetish or blogish presentation.

 

Look here (4 years old article on exactly this subject):

https://makezine.com/2015/08/14/block-car-door-relay-hack-faraday-cage/

 

For long read, find electromagnetic theory basics and learn what Faraday's cage is and on which principles it works and which are theoretical and practical prerequisite to some casing be considered (more or less) close to Faraday's cage. 

 

BTW funny thing about Faraday's cage is that name suggests mesh or grid structure. No, it should be total closing into (super) conductive material in order to prevent electromagnetic filed escape or intrusion into 'cage'. So 'cage' is to be understood more as descriptive of function than structure itself.

2 hours ago, pa_ko said:

Why don't you try it? For me it works perfectly. 

 

And is is officially recommend by FBI

https://clark.com/cars/can-wrapping-your-key-fob-in-foil-stop-car-thieves-we-put-it-to-the-test/

 

 

 

While Im sure that aluminium foil works, I think comment from someone who used to work for the FBI can hardly be construed to be ‘officially recommended by FBI.

If really worried about this why not dig your hand in your pocket and buy one of these rather expensive products...you may have to wait a little while as they are presently sold out.

 

https://keylessprotector.co.uk/product/keyless-protector/

34 minutes ago, Breezy said:

 

While Im sure that aluminium foil works, I think comment from someone who used to work for the FBI can hardly be construed to be ‘officially recommended by FBI.

If really worried about this why not dig your hand in your pocket and buy one of these rather expensive products...you may have to wait a little while as they are presently sold out.

 

https://keylessprotector.co.uk/product/keyless-protector/

 

Because I already made my own movement sensor adapter (see few pages before) for my existing keyfob for far less money. It works flawlessly and I don't need bag. And for spare keyfob, keeping in house, I use alu foil for free.

 

BTW the keyless protector you posted is of same principle as design I described and implemented (switch battery supply on movement), yet it is 10x cheaper if you DIY. I agree fitment inside keyfob housing is great but 120 pounds is too much for my taste. 

 

I expect that if Skoda is pressed, they can provide replacement fobs for free or for 10-20 pounds or so as electronics is simple and cheap. It is just matter of pressing them. No technical nor commercial difficulty. Just matter of good will.

 

 

Well Pa-Ko you seem to be an expert not only in the law but also in Electronics.

 

My key-fob well wrapped in Aluminium Foil was still able to operate the KESSY system and unlock the doors.

 

Your questionable FBI article would appear to refer to remote key pads not KESSY, similar but different technology.

 

I look forward to the court case Pe-ko Versus VAG, should be interesting!

 

 

Meh....If some scally nicks my motor using whatever method in the next 4.5 years I will just have to invoke my GAP insurance and get me a shiny new one! 

Pa_ko, I don't understand how after all the effort you've put into this, you won't just disable KESSY by touching the door handle. It completely removes the risk that you're so preoccupied with. 

 

Putting the key in a pouch, tin, wrapping it in foil or manufacturing a motion sensor of your own design is surely more of an inconvenience?!