Battery Type (and problem)

[TerFar]

Hi All.

 

We recently decided to downsize from our trusty Yeti (2l diesel) and found a Jan 2016 Fabia 1.2 Tsi Monte Carlo DSG with just under 6,000 miles on the clock. Within a few days I started to have battery problems. It came with a Skoda warranty and I took back to the garage for testing. They assure me that nothing is wrong, they charged the battery and it just needs driving more!!!

 

Well, a couple of days later, I started getting the low battery warning in the DOT display and the Infotainment switch itself off. I did a 70 mile FAST round trip on the M27/A27, stopped at Asda Garage to fill up on my return and found the battery was still low, still getting the error message!

 

I haven't been back to the garage yet as I have been doing some tests and reading about all the battery charge problems with Mark III Fabias sop that I am armed with some information before tackling them.

 

I have fully charged the battery using an Optimate battery conditioner. It took 48 hours to fully charge: not unexpected as it does only trickle charge. After reaching the full charge, I disconnected and the immediate battery voltage was 12.64 volts. After 30 minutes rest, the voltage fell slightly to 12.5 volts but stayed at 12.5 volts for several hours.

 

(I'm going to do some further tests later after taking it out on the road and I'll add the results to this thread.)

Meanwhile, the battery fitted is a 59Ah MLA Moll EFB battery. Reading around leads me to believe that EFB type batteries are inadequate for Start/Stop systems and the battery should be an AGM type.

 

So my first question is should I insist the garage (a Skoda agent) replace the battery with an AGM type and did Skoda continue fitting EFB type batteries or did they change them to AGM batteries in later models?

 

When I went on line to look for the cost of replacement batteries, at least three sites specified an AGM battery (all at over £150), which makes me suspicious that Skoda threw in an inadequate battery!

 

Thanks: Terry

[krigl]

Throw in a generic battery of about 66Ah 620A or more that you can find to fit in the space for battery and disconnect the extra wires that are on the negative terminal. Forget the start stop system, since it is useless anyway. The disconnected wires disable the start stop system and regenerative engine braking stuff. But do not fear, the alternator still is charging the battery.

 

If you go OEM, likely you will pay twice the price just for battery and the dealer has to code the new type of battery to system.

[rum4mo]

Unfortunately, VW Group do fit EFB batteries in their small petrol engined cars that have start/stop, though I've always considered that Moll is or was a good quality brand.  That capacity of battery is correct for that car basing my judgement on my wife's August 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL.

 

I have a CTEK battery condition tester and the last time that I checked, that battery was still "good as new".

 

Edit:- so, in your case, either that battery is dying or the battery management dongle (the bits on the -ve post) are not doing their job - either way its back to the dealer and demand a solution, maybe even ask them to printout the results of a battery test as that might then mean it is the battery management dongle that is causing this problem.

 

Another Edit:- your suspicions about Skoda, or VW Group fitting an inadequate battery are very much spot on, these EFB batteries are nice and cheap when compared with AGM equivalents!

Edited 3 April, 2019 by rum4mo

[xman]

Faulty Moll batteries have been fitted by Skoda. Ask your dealer as there is a TPI on this issue. You may get a free replacement, depending on dates.

[rum4mo]

Actually I'm sure that when I last checked up on the aftermarket equivalent battery for my wife's 2015 Polo, most places returned a basic and low capacity "normal" battery - but that is how most battery suppliers get sales by quoting lowest prices.

 

I would think, as time moves on, if you submitted a car with start/stop for an MOT or ended up with a roadside test, if they spotted that your car was set up to not start/stop, then you'd get a "sort it and notify us so that we can retest it" notice as the road tax classification for that car is now not as intended, though the emissions/MPG using the older system are so inaccurate that disabling start/stop might not change much - but it should! I'm saying this as someone who runs a car that was not fitted with start/stop - and Audi should have as it would have taken it into a lower road tax band, and that would mean that I'd be paying less than 50% of what I am (gutted but still enjoying that car!).

[graeme1177]

You definitely need to keep the stop start system . If you are not on good terms with your MoT tester or have a particularly inflexible one ,  things like not fitting low rolling resistance tyres to Greenline versions , no postcode on number plates, LED bulbs on too old a car etc can cause problems with the rules.. The list goes on because the MoT has now gone further than simply ensuring a car is safe and many testers do not use much discretion because there is nothing in it for them but a lot to loose if they are caught out by VOSA. Your car needs to meet its original spec.

 

Like most manufacturers Skoda sometimes under spec things like a battery because you can get away with it on a new car . If it's smaller , lighter and cheaper you can see why. The problem is that when things age the demands are higher - older engines are trickier to start, old electric motors(like the starter) consume more current , the battery itself ages ( and will suffer more stress if it's under-specced in the first place) so you can see how things are a bit different for the second owner of a car than for the first one when wear and tear brings everything down a little.

 

Your dealer has a duty to sell you a functional car under the Sale of Goods Act. So if they say that the battery is not covered under warranty because it's a consumable you can argue that it was clearly not of merchantable quality when you bought it ( they don't suddenly fail- they deteriorate). I wouldn't mind betting they had to charge the battery themselves when the car was on the forecourt  before you bought it.  Just charging a battery and being able to start the car is not adequate. It needs to hold charge and the 'just drive it more' argument is a fob off. You should be able to go on holiday and come back to a car that starts let alone not being able to start the car after making short hops over a couple of days. Make yourself a bit of a persistent customer and you will get a battery out of them so they get rid of you. If they really want to see the back of you you may argue that giving you an AGM battery will mean they won't have you darkening their doorstep again with another failed battery but the least you should expect is a new standard fit battery.

[xman]

Afaik there is no check or requirements in the MOT for stop start systems, low rolling resistance tyres or postcodes on number plates

https://www.bnma.org/advice-centre/key-pieces-of-legislation/mot-number-plate-rules/

[Bobclive2]

23 hours ago, graeme1177 said:

You definitely need to keep the stop start system . If you are not on good terms with your MoT tester or have a particularly inflexible one ,  things like not fitting low rolling resistance tyres to Greenline versions , no postcode on number plates, LED bulbs on too old a car etc can cause problems with the rules.. The list goes on because the MoT has now gone further than simply ensuring a car is safe and many testers do not use much discretion because there is nothing in it for them but a lot to loose if they are caught out by VOSA. Your car needs to meet its original spec.

 

Not sure where you got that from, I have just put my 2015 SLK 200 on the road, it has the stop/start deleted by removing the negative rail battery sensor and has a BlueSpark tuning box fitted, it past it`s MOT last week with no issues. My C-Class coupe has been running for 6 months without the sensor, battery is now 8 years old.

 

Regarding stop/start, according to the manufactures and battery fitters there is NO actual gain,  Google ( Honest John ) and check the real MPG numbers.

 

But although AGM or EFB batteries are more expensive than standard SLI, the cost of having to replace them more often would be balanced by the fuel savings, said Riedel.

“These batteries result in an average fuel consumption saving of 5%,” he said. “We have our own internal test vehicles and we achieved numbers which are higher than 5%.”  

 

So if there is NO gain why have a more complex system.

 

http://www.batteriesinternational.com/2017/08/10/agm-aftermarket-falters-as-drivers-disable-start-stop-function/

 

J.D. Power identified the trend in its 2017 Vehicle Dependability Study. In a summary of its findings, the global consumer research company stated: “New to the top 10 list of problems reported in 2017 is battery failure. In fact, 44% more owners report a battery failure this year than in 2016. Batteries are the most frequently replaced component not related to normal wear and tear in three-year-old vehicles at 6.1% — up 1.3 percentage points from 2016.”

The increase in battery-related complaints is continuing in 2018, according to Jason Searl of Johnson Controls International plc. Battery performance is a leading source of consumer dissatisfaction with vehicles, and it has been increasing each year as vehicles become more complex

Batteries were not an issue prior to the introduction of stop/start.

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/article/729804/oem-battery-trends-how-the-latest-technologies-affect-battery-sales-and-service

As has already been said by others, if you disconnect the sensor on the negative battery rail you will not have any more battery issues as the alternator will always attempt to fully charge the battery, it does not matter how many systems are connected to the car the alternator provides the power to them not the battery, the battery is there to start the car and to provide power when the cars engine is not running. With the sensor disconnected you will have standard charging as before stop/start and regeneration were implemented, without these systems any battery can be used as long as it has the correct AH. These systems are more complex, will go wrong and be expensive to fix and don`t give any benefit to the owner, don`t be conned.

 

Edited 4 April, 2019 by Bobclive2

[rum4mo]

I've always looked on stop/start as being introduced to reduce inner city emission levels and the rules/laws on how long you are permitted to be stationary in traffic with the engine running "pretend" to be being or maybe being or going to being enforced more seriously as time goes on. Now most of my driving probably with stop/start temporarily disabled is not in inner city driving, but I am always aware of the requirement to reduce engine running when stationary. Overall cost savings to the user if and when they exist are just a spin off and not the intent of stop/start and these savings include reduced road tax.

[AGFalco]

A car three years old with less than 6000 miles on it, and it has battery problems.

I think these things are connected.

My almost three year old has 31000 miles on it. I have never seen the low battery warning message.

 

Thanks AG Falco

[Flopsy]

as someone who has kept an eye on, and joined in, these threads I wonder how many people actually have starting problems as opposed to just seeing the warning. Our Fabia is three years old this month, has done 6800 miles in that time and occasionally shows this warning in winter. I've never noticed it struggling to turn over but i find it hard to believe that it can take a couple of hours of driving before the stop/start kicks back in. Are Skoda using the full output of the alternators once underway or is their output controlled in some way. I got a CTEK smart charger last winter and have used it twice so far but to be honest i won't bother again unless the car is struggling to turn over.

Our old Mk 2 Fabia, owned from new for 6.5 years, never struggled to start and was going strong when we sold it with 23000 miles on it. The mileage rate reduced for the last three years to similar to our current(no puns please) rate.

[rum4mo]

I think that maybe the combination of very low annual mileage (probably meaning many short journeys or long periods on not being used or combination of both), smart charging system and a battery capacity that errs on the low side, has the makings of a "perfect storm" with these cars.

 

Maybe make up a lead and connect a voltmeter to the "cigarette" socket and keep an eye on it while driving, my wife's 2015 Polo is used frequently for longer journeys so is maybe always in a better condition charge wise than your car, but the heavy "cramming charge in" (higher voltage indicated) situation only ever seems to take place when on the over run and/or braking, so it looks like the charging system is set up to minimise taking power from the engine - and so the fuel, to charge the battery - so the battery might get a bit low charge wise before "normal" top up charging is happening.

 

I know that people have said that a few parameters are checked before stop/start is "enabled" - but even in winter my wife's Polo will "stop" within 0.5 mile - but to be fair that is also due to me keeping the cabin fan switched off until the engine has warmed up - in fact, frequently in warmer weather it will "stop" when we pause at the top of the driveway after reversing up, if the stop/start has not been manually disabled. Though it does work as I would expect if and when I leave the auto stop/start alone and end up with it activating or not activating when in a long queue of traffic.

 

To date that car's battery has never ever shown any signs of being other than perfectly charged at a cold start and normal running.

[TerFar]

I'd like to thank everyone who has replied to this topic. That's a mine full of information and advice over such a 'simple' topic!

 

The current situation is that I am still regularly monitor the battery situation. I've done about a dozen short journeys and the battery is still registering around 12.6 v (after a period of rest). I think that all is OK again.

 

What I neglected to mention is that the first (only) time I connected the Optimate battery conditioner, it spent the first ~3 hours in Desulphate mode: it then took another 45 hours to fully charge. I'm now thinking that the garage didn't have a 'smart charger' and they didn't succeed in fully charging the battery because it was sulphated. The Optimate may have done the trick. 

 

But I have ordered myself a cheap OBD2 bluetooth reader and I'll get the Torque App so that I can monitor the battery in real time whilst I'm driving to ensure that all is OK. 

 

Apparently, Torque is able to switch off Start/Stop permanently too (a real bonus). If I need a new battery, I'll get a humble standard battery as they seem to be over £100 cheaper than an AGM battery. 

 

What really surprises me is that I purchased a new Fabia 1.9 in 2006, ran it for 7 years and then handed it on to my son who still drives it. It's had 3 very silly faults that researching here and on the Internet found instant solutions that cost merely pence to repair. (For anyone interested, the faults were the rear exhaust box heat shield flapping, leaky rear doors, a warning light caused by a 'stressed' cable in the loom that had snapped. All poor manufacturing faults.)

 

This truly is a great resource.

Edited 5 April, 2019 by TerFar

[AGFalco]

 

7 hours ago, TerFar said:

If I need a new battery, I'll get a humble standard battery

 

If you replace the EFB battery with an ordinary one, then be careful the alternator doesn't cook it.

The Stop/start alternators can pump out a higher voltage than an ordinary  battery can cope with.

 

EFB 027 can be bought for less than £100.00.

 

Thanks AG Falco

Edited 5 April, 2019 by AGFalco
added price.

[Bobclive2]

8 hours ago, TerFar said:

Apparently, Torque is able to switch off Start/Stop permanently too (a real bonus). If I need a new battery, I'll get a humble standard battery as they seem to be over £100 cheaper than an AGM battery. 

 

I think you may be disappointed with Torque Pro switching stop/start off but I may be wrong. The only reliable way to check the battery charging voltage is via the Cig lighter socket as this links directly to the battery, you need one of these from Ebay, verify it`s accuracy by taking readings off the battery with a multimeter.

 

If you can turn off stop/start with Torque you still cannot I believe use a cheap lead acid battery as the system will still overcharge it. Stop/start has nothing to do with the charging of the battery, it just needs a fully charged battery to work. I believe your car has a smart charging system, to check this look at the negative  battery terminal on the starter battery, if you see something like the pic below connected to that black thick lead the system is smart. This means that every time you brake or go into overrun the alternator will bang around 16 volts into your battery, if it is not Designed for stop/start it will quickly die. The only way to stop this is to disconnect that sensor, in fact if you do this as I said earlier and drive car for a few days the warnings will probably go as your battery will then be near fully charged.

 

Terfar, this is good advice, disconnect the senor and drive the car for a week and see what charge is with Ebay device, as long as you see under 14.3 volts you are safe. If you don`t like plug it back in.

 

Regards,  Rob.

 

Edited 5 April, 2019 by Bobclive2

[unclerichy]

Wife had constant battery issues with her 2016 Fabia estate. Stock answer was that she didn't drive it enough.

 

We became fed up of going to dealer with no positive results so handed it back within 3 years and went for a new Honda Jazz. Driven even less and never misses a beat.

[rum4mo]

In connection with the comment to just unplug the small cable from the dongle bolted to the -ve post of the battery:- my wife’s 2015 Polo went in for a warranty repair, gearbox top mounting replacement, for the following few days I became aware that auto stop/start was not happening, so I opened the bonnet and found that battery management cable had been left unplugged, clumsy techs!

[Eccles]

I have heard of similar problems albeit on other makes where the car's system has not completely shut down when turning off so that some components are still draining the battery. It is also true that batteries need a finite amount of time to recharge to full capacity, especially in winter when we tend to use every component on the electrical list. This can mean that frequent short journeys don't give the alternator long enough to get the battery up to full whack. We should also always remember that batteries have a life and that is rarely longer than 6 -7 years. Recently came across two gents trying to get into their aging 4x4 in a car park. It would not open because the battery was flat as a pancake - they had left side lights on for several hours it seems. "How old is the battery?" I quizzed. "Dunno mate, years probably" came the response and there was the clue - batteries do not last for ever.

[TerFar]

I've now had plenty of time to investigate this problem further and my conclusion is that the battery provided is inadequate for normal use.

 

We use the Fabia 1.2 Tsi DSG MC virtually identically to our previous Yeti (Outdoor 2l 150 DSG diesel). So it definitely is not our use that is the problem. Every now and again, every car needs a long run, but having a car that needs a long run twice a week is ludicrous. What a waste of fuel and unwanted wear of the car!

 

I have thoroughly tested the battery and it is definitely good and holds a full charge fine. It definitely isn't charged sufficiently in normal short distance driving. The Yeti did: the Fabia MC doesn't. I've disabled the start/stop, we make sure everything is turned off when parked and I'm going to use the trickle charger once a week. That seems to be OK for now. When the battery dies, I'll make sure to replace it with a higher capacity AGM battery. Until then, I'll make do with the standard EFB fitted.

 

I personally believe that Skoda should replace these with better batteries. Does anyone know what type of battery they fit to the new Fabia petrol models?

 

[punyXpress]

My 13 month old Fabia has EFB 59ah

[alan4856732]

My 67 plate SE 1.0 TSI 95PS has an EFB 59Ah

[AGFalco]

12 hours ago, TerFar said:

When the battery dies, I'll make sure to replace it with a higher capacity AGM battery

 

Look here for info on how to fit a bigger AGM battery to the Fabia:-

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7926

 

Thanks AG Falco

 

 

[rum4mo]

I've now read that and agree with fitting covers to the +ve and -ve battery terminals, I thought that it was just an omission by the South African VW factory, but they were missing on that Golf s well!  BCM is actually Body Control Module, I thought that there was another area for Battery Management, maybe not if it hides inside the BCM.

[Tilt]

On 05/04/2019 at 06:34, Flopsy said:

I got a CTEK smart charger last winter and have used it twice so far but to be honest i won't bother again unless the car is struggling to turn over.

 

It's when a battery has a low charge that it is very susceptible to damage from cold weather, especially freezing temperatures.

A 4 watt solar charger is a lot cheaper than a new battery.

 

23 hours ago, TerFar said:

Every now and again, every car needs a long run,

 

Or a top up charge, using a charger. Could also consider a solar charger. IMO it is crazy to go for a long drive just to get some charge into a battery.

Edited 17 April, 2019 by Tilt

[TerFar]

12 hours ago, AGFalco said:

 

Look here for info on how to fit a bigger AGM battery to the Fabia:-

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7926

 

Thanks AG Falco

 

Excellent advise with part numbers too! Thank you.